Near death experience can be real?

[Odilon]

I believe they are true. This happened to my brother in law and it was very interesting to hear him tell me about it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You need to use a Catholic Bible and follow the footnotes and get a good understanding of Scripture based on what the Catholic Church teaches.

For instance

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins

The Footnote
If we sin deliberately: verse 29, indicates that the author is here thinking of apostasy;

Apostasy is rejection of the faith after having received it

St Paul isn’t saying that once a Christian sins, Jesus sacrifice is no longer any good for them.

Your interpretation of Scripture comes across as that of Fundamentalists.

Remember, we follow the interpretation of Scripture by the Catholic Church.

Jim

 

[steve-b]

You need to use a Catholic Bible and follow the footnotes and get a good understanding of Scripture based on what the Catholic Church teaches.

For instance

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins

I used the RSV-CE

The CCC on the context of the passage I quoted.

Re: Heb 10:23… post #76

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”
Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: "This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."

That’s the context of the passages I quoted. The consequences then of deliberately missing the Eucharist on “the Day” Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth?

2181 _The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own _
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.
BTW:
Grave sin = mortal sin

Now you see where I received my evidence for what I wrote.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You linked “Biblegateway” in your previous post, not a Catholic Bible.

Also, read the introduction of the Letter to the Hebrews in order to understand the context of the Scripture you originally posted.

Hebrews, THE LETTER TO THE HEBREWS

Daily Bible Readings, Podcast Audio and Videos and Prayers brought to you by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

bible.usccb.org

It speaks about the Jewish Christians who began to fall into apostasy and stopped attending the Christian assemblies, which included the celebration of the Holy Eucharist. They had knowledge of Christ, but began to abandon their faith because they found it too hard.

That was 2000 years ago.

Today, we have many Catholics who believe in Jesus, but not the institutional Church.

Are they in mortal sin, considering the state the institutional Church is right now ?

Only God knows.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

That was 2000 years ago. …

Really, Jim?

 

[steve-b]

You linked “Biblegateway” in your previous post, not a Catholic Bible.

I said I quoted from the RSV-CE which I did for the English translation, but as for the Greek, that translation comes from the Greek study bible. Which Biblegateway references.
Jim-OCDS:

Also, read the introduction of the Letter to the Hebrews in order to understand the context of the Scripture you originally posted.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Hebrews&ch=

It speaks about the Jewish Christians who began to fall into apostasy and stopped attending the Christian assemblies, which included the celebration of the Holy Eucharist. They had knowledge of Christ, but began to abandon their faith because they found it too hard.

That was 2000 years ago.

Today, we have many Catholics who believe in Jesus, but not the institutional Church.

Are they in mortal sin, considering the state the institutional Church is right now ?

Only God knows.

Jim

Apostasy is only one of the sins. Deliberately missing mass on Sunday and other holy days of obligation, after being given instruction on that, then one commits mortal sin. The consequences for THAT sin is described in the sequence of passages quoted in Heb 10:23-31 AND the CCC which I also quoted which referenced back to those verses from Heb 10

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Apostasy was one of the grave sins which had to be confessed before the Congregation back when Hebrews was written. Private confession was prohibited.

There are three conditions for sin to be mortal, full knowledge, free will and consent.

Full knowledge doesn’t mean you told someone that when they miss Mass they’ve committed a mortal sin. They must’ve have full knowledge given from faith in Jesus Christ. Then, freely reject what they know to be against God and do so with the will.

Condemning lapsed Catholics who don’t go to Mass, does little to bring them the Good News of Jesus Christ, and in fact probably is an impediment for them.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, the letter to the Hebrews is about 2000 years old

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Yes, the letter to the Hebrews is about 2000 years old

Jim

I’m missing what you are saying. Are you saying that because Hebrews is almost 2000 years old its teachings regarding apostasy do not apply? Is this a “that was then this is now” kind of argument?

I’m talking specifically of Hebrews 10: 26-31.

 

[steve-b]

Apostasy was one of the grave sins which had to be confessed before the Congregation back when Hebrews was written. Private confession was prohibited.

The main focus of Heb 10:25-29 was attending Sunday liturgy and receiving the Eucharist, and the consequences for one who deliberately misses the liturgy

JimR-OCDS:

There are three conditions for sin to be mortal, full knowledge, free will and consent.

Full knowledge doesn’t mean you told someone that when they miss Mass they’ve committed a mortal sin.

The point of the passage I quoted is (and I quote )

" For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"

Do you see the sequence? Knowledge first.

And it doesn’t give anyone excuses or a free pass if they disagree

JimR-OCDS:

Condemning lapsed Catholics who don’t go to Mass, does little to bring them the Good News of Jesus Christ, and in fact probably is an impediment for them.

Jim

Re: lapsed Catholics

“Lapsed” isn’t a get outta jail free card.

Actions have consequences. We have obligations to give the whole truth.

using an example

Using Ez 3:17-21 , and these examples A=Catholic, B = someone doing wrong, Life=heaven, Death=hell,
here’s 4 potential scenarios using those passages from Ezekiel

Scenarios:

• If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A & B are both screwed. Both die
• But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.” . IOW A gives B warning. B ignores the warning. A lives B is screwed.
• if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A is screwed. B is being B and is screwed and ALSO, his good works are not remembered
• Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.” . IOW A warns B and B listens and changes, A & B live

putting this as God sees it I would do all I can to be in scenerio 2 & 4 and avoid #s 1 & 3 like the plague

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The entire letter to the Hebrews is in the context of apostasy as the introduction of the letter states.

It still applies that rejecting Jesus after a person has received the gift of faith, is still apostasy.

People who have not received faith, can not commit the sin of apostasy because they have not received full knowledge through the gift of faith.

Belonging to the Catholic Church doesn’t mean a person received the gift of faith from God, but that they could be following the doctrines and rites of religion while they still seem attractive. This is not faith, but the practice of religion and often a group identity attraction which keeps them part of it.

Faith is a gift from God, It is his revelation to the individual, however that may happen.

Religion is a response to that faith.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I see. So, you are quibbling over whether lapsed Catholics are actually apostates vs. people who never had faith?

But, wouldn’t a person who left the Catholic faith and Christianity all together be materially an apostate even if we did not know enough about the person to say they are formally an apostate?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But, wouldn’t a person who left the Catholic faith and Christianity all together be materially an apostate even if we did not know enough about the person to say they are formally an apostate

Not that we can judge nor should we.

We don’t know if they received the gift of faith in Jesus Christ and were rejecting Him after receiving such faith. Many Catholics who were Baptised as infants and left the Catholic Church, have never received faith in Jesus Christ.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

But, wouldn’t a person who left the Catholic faith and Christianity all together be materially an apostate even if we did not know enough about the person to say they are formally an apostate

But, you would not need to know the answers to those questions to say that they were materially an apostate…

Here we would be talking about confirmed members of the church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No because they were really never had faith to begin with.

For the most part, they left the institutional religion, which could be low-level of apostasy, but in the context of what Hebrews is addressing.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Do you have something to back up what you are saying? Someone who is materially an apostate might not formally be an apostate. In the same way, a divorced an remarried person might be materially in an adulterous relationship but not formally in one due to some recognized issue with culpability or the sacramental nature of the previous marriage.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are three different levels of apostasy according the Newadvent

However, in the context of Hebrews, read the introduction to the letter.

If possible, find a good Catholic commentary on it.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Yes, I read the NABRE introduction and the Haydock Introduction. That doesn’t really answer the question I’m asking you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m talking about apostasy in the highest level.

A person received the gift of faith from Jesus Christ, but later rejects him and never returns

This is a grave sin and what St John Paul II spoke about when he stated that God doesn’t send anyone to hell, they go their on their own.

Rejection of God who has revealed Himself, is the highest level of apostasy.

Jim

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Ok, but it has long been recognized that scripture can have multiple layers of application. That’s why I was a bit confused to see you making the argument that St. Paul’s words wouldn’t apply to lapsed Catholics because Hebrews is 2000 years old and Paul was talking to Jewish Christians who had left the faith.