How exactly would you relate something thaty is “other worldly”?
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atheistgirl
Guest
I know. The author is a catholic apologist. Of course he is going to filter his evidence and skew his conclusions to back up what his faith believes.
Here’s a review of the book - the review does make it sound like quite a good book, but as the reviewer says, in the end, it’s impenetrable, so the author doesnt really prove his case at all. He will to those who want to see what they want to see, but not to people like me.
And here’s a review by another Sarah
Sarah x
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buffalo
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I didn’t get that at all from the read. As I said we can talk individual points if you with instead of just a hit post.I know. The author is a catholic apologist. Of course he is going to filter his evidence and skew his conclusions to back up what his faith believes.
Here’s a review of the book - the review does make it sound like quite a good book, but as the reviewer says, in the end, it’s impenetrable, so the author doesnt really prove his case at all. He will to those who want to see what they want to see, but not to people like me.
And here’s a review by another Sarah
Sarah x
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dandingo
Guest
Actually you’re wrong. Dinesh D’Souza is an evangelical/Catholic apologist who was raised Catholic. He actually states that he’s non-denominational but still holds onto his Catholic background and has no problem with the evangelical world. Just a point I thought I’d make.I know. The author is a catholic apologist. Of course he is going to filter his evidence and skew his conclusions to back up what his faith believes.
Here’s a review of the book - the review does make it sound like quite a good book, but as the reviewer says, in the end, it’s impenetrable, so the author doesnt really prove his case at all. He will to those who want to see what they want to see, but not to people like me.
And here’s a review by another Sarah
Sarah x
Well, shoot, you read two peoples’ reviews that say it didn’t convince them so you have no reason to do the research yourself and, of course, it isn’t going to convince you.
I read multiple reviews on Amazon from people who weren’t believers and still gave it at least 4 stars. Just as you have found non-believers reviewing it negatively, I have found non-believers reviewing it positively. A review from an outside source does not make the content true or false.
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SeanF1989
Guest
If that is true then why have people also described near death Hell? surely if the brain wanted to comfort the dying person it would do so with pleasant images?
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atheistgirl
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I totally agree. Neither does D’Souza’s conclusions make them anything but his conclusions and opinion and interpretation of the information.
Lots of scientists look at the information and come to a completley different conclusion:
guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/19/health.mentalhealth
I am entirely in the ‘I dont believe it’ camp, until such time as the evidence is much stronger and less questionable.
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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dandingo
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JDaniel
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Sarah:
“I know you are, but what am I?” Appropriate.
And you seem to know this with so much certainty . . . how?
And this proves exactly what?
You’re welcome.
God bless,
jd
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JDaniel
Guest
Wait! Did I detect humor? From a Solipsist?IMHO, this forum would be a very quiet place.
(Your line is quite hilarious!) I liked it.
God bless,
jd
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exnihilo
Guest
Normally the images the brain assembles are the result of the actual physical world reflecting light. As soon as the brain is making up images we have a real problem. If the brain is unreliable, by creating images that do not really exist, how can we trust it and reason about the world?
The *mind *could be experiencing things otherworldly but because it has been so conditioned to this world it interprets them within the limits of the physical world. A voice that is heard via sound waves in the air is not the same as a voice heard through other means.
It might do that. But then what is consciousness? And how does it have purpose? It is one thing to describe what happens but another to assert purpose, which implies a will (which purely physical things can not have). The will, if it exists, is immaterial. How did consciousness acquire a purpose and know to direct that towards comforting (and what is it comforting) in the last moments of life?
That only makes things more confusing. If we can sense something that is no longer there than our senses are unreliable. If we can have an itch outside of our body (what else would an itch on a amputated limb be) then our senses are not as mechanical as we imagine them to be.
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Julia_Mae
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I think it mischaracterizes a whole organization to take one example from many, many people who talk about extraordinary experiences and then post it with smug commentary. In that same group of videos is an interview with a cardiac surgeon who had a patient with dead on the table for over twenty minutes who simply revived on his own and was able to describe events in the operating room he couldn’t possibly have seen.Quoted from the link you gave:
Oh boy
Sarah x
It’s quite a good, comprehensive site and an organization that archives and presents information. I’m sorry you only seem interested in denigrating the opinions of other posters instead of becoming educated about the topic.
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Ian_Ward
Guest
There is a TV show I shouldn’t be alive and many explained independently those experiences. They are telling the true and the experiences they went through was real.
The ones with hell experiences, those are sinners that needed to be reminded of how much trouble they were getting themselves into.
The ones with hell experiences, those are sinners that needed to be reminded of how much trouble they were getting themselves into.
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Fran65
Guest
Hi Sarah,Whatever the actual reason, it will certainly be anchored in the brain, and will have a perfectly rational, real world, explanation. No supernatural elements required
Sarah x
Welcome to CAF.
Regarding the hypothesis that NDEs are the result of a ‘dying brain’ I’m afraid that it simply does not hold together under scrutiny. For example one (verified) case - that of Pam Atwater occurred during a period when there was no brain activity at all. She was able to describe surgical instruments, the position of staff and their conversations during a period when she was clinically dead - no cardiac activity, no brain activity (recorded by EEG). Her case is a very interesting one that has been thoroughly investigated and for which there is so far no physical explanation.
Other problems with the explanation include that:
1)Anoxia produces disorientation and confusion rather than the coherence and clarity reported by NDErs. One study also found higher blood oxygen levels amongst NDErs than those who did not report an NDE.
2)High levels of carbon dioxide in the blood produce many other symptoms which are not present in NDEs. For example strong convulsive movements.High levels of carbon dioxide are also associated with anoxia (see above).
3)Temporal lobe seizures are demonstrated to produce very mundane images and experiences rather than those associated with the NDE. Experiences are also fragmented and confused unlike the NDE.
4)Drugs have not been shown to produce anything like the NDE. There are striking and consistent similarities and core experience in the NDE while drug induced hallucinations are varied and idiosyncratic.
In summary as the brain enters the process of dying it becomes more disorganized and incoherent. This is in marked contrast to the NDE. The suggestion that NDEs are a post hoc restructuring of the experience does not hold either as those who have experienced anoxia, drug ingestion, hypercarbia etc do not restructure their experiences in a similar way.
There is also no association between preceding beliefs and religion and having an NDE. An atheist is as likely to report a highly coherent NDE with the meeting of a loving figure as a Catholic, Hindu or Buddhist. It also cuts across cultures in a way that drug induced/anoxic hallucinations do not.
An excellent book on this topic is by Chris Carter an Oxofrd trained philosopher who applies all of his intellectual powers and education to this fascinating area - ‘Science and the Near Death Experience’. It is far more rigorous and accurate than any Daily Mail piece.
Pax et Bonum
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
The night my own father died, he appeared in my room, started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream and then disappeared.On the basis that for me, personally, I do not think there is any evidence for the supernatural, afterlifes, or anything like that. Therefor it stands to reason, to me, that this ‘‘experience’’ has a perfectly rational explanation, and will have it’s anchor somewhere in the human brain. And I also think that the researchers will accurately pin it down one day.
Sarah x
I got up in fright, went around the unit I lived in, checked all the doors and windows, under the bed, in the bathroom etc.
However it was another four days before one of my uncles turned up to tell me he’d died, for the simple reason his body wasn’t found for four days.
As for the apology, he’d been very cruel. He even made some predictions, one of which, word for word, was “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is to discourage you even more!”
I met the pastor about four years later, developed an enormous respect for him, but had him say to me "I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!"
Note any similarity to the words my “dead” father used the night he appeared in my room.
I think he’s in Hell by the way, going by the dreadful scream.
Sorry, but you’re wrong. Dead wrong.
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atheistgirl
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Educating myself on the topic? I’ve read tons and tons on the subject. I’m dashing out to a hospital appointment right now so I’ll post a link to some of the research - medical and scientific - Ive read. I’ve read the believers, and the skeptics.
Try not to be so judgemental and presumptious in future eh?
Sarah x
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Rickyy101
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I have a friend who did not have a ‘‘near’’ death experience, he WAS dead! After he was pinned between a car that fell off its lift and a tool box. He said there was nothing. Just a time gap between when he died and when he was revived…
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Buck_Crosswhite
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I find it quite humorous that some think that a dead brain is more active than a living brain.
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atheistgirl
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Quite. When the brains dead, it’s dead… and so is everything associated with it …
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
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