Need help getting rid of Mormon Missionaries

[agnes_therese]

Just so we are on the same page, please list the wrongs. I have my guess, but rather not assume.

Thanks!

Goodness, it’s from your own post – (1) the missionaries ignoring his request that they leave him alone, and (2) his actions at their meeting.

 

[Eliza10]

I remember my mission president would tell us that whenever we get backed into a corner and can’t quite answer our critics, to just bear our testimonies. We never expected doing so to immediately change minds, but we were taught that doing so would plant seeds and the Holy Ghost could do the rest.

Boy were they right! My companion and I once bore our testimonies after a nice young German Catholic woman was poking and prodding us about apostolic succession. Her response was epic (and totally unexpected): she bore her own Catholic testimony in response. It was then that my companion and I knew that there was absolutely nothing left for either of us to say to her, and so we never bothered her again. Here I am as a Catholic now, so I guess her testimony was more powerful than mine.

Thank you so much for this. Its very inspiring!

Tell them: “I’m sorry to waste your time, gentlemen, but I’m a devout Catholic and have no intentions on leaving the Catholic Church. I know the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church. I know Pope Francis is the spiritual and temporal head of said Church. I know that there was never any apostasy of Christ’s Church and there never will be one. I know Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and I would never, ever give any of this up for another religion. I know the Book of Mormon is not true. I know Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and indeed was most likely a charlatan. I will be praying for you two boys that one day you will both give the Catholic Church some consideration. God Bless you two and the best of luck in all your endeavors.” Then close the door. …

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[twopekinguys]

You should read his post, you missed the part that it was during class.

They also invited him, over and over again. They made that bed.

This guy, took the invitation and replied to the invite. Went into the lion’s den and stood his ground.

You don’t see the irony in telling someone they did something wrong by taking an invitation and raising his hand during Q&A, and telling someone off because you missed a football play, or one of 200 + laps for a car race?

So, if we invite someone to Mass, or Adoration, you’re OK with them standing up in the middle of it and having a hissie fit, because they disagree with it?

He was in someone else’s house of worship. It does not matter what the activity was. It was immature and uncalled for.

I disagree with mormonism, and all it espouses, but if I am in one of their church facilities, I am going to be respectful. If something gets totally out of line, or creeps me out, I will politely excuse myself and leave. After all, the doors aren’t locked.

It really isn’t that hard to figure out.

 

[Eliza10]

Goodness, it’s from your own post – (1) the missionaries ignoring his request that they leave him alone, and (2) his actions at their meeting.

What he is looking for is for you to say WHAT actions at the meeting you are accusing the OP of engaging in that were wrong. That’s not obvious at all, and I am curious, too.

 

[twopekinguys]

Oh, I see you already handled this. You did great! Much better than my idea.

Amen to that!

I don’t understand all the shaming the OP is getting here. OP did great. They must have misread. At least one here thought he had stood up in service. Must have never been to a Mormon Sunday. I have.

It goes on forever. General service includes boring hymns you never heard of (I suppose except at Christmas) from a hymnbook, hardly any Scripture if any [that boring Book of Mormon is NOT Scripture], a routine of nice young boys dressed in white shirts, ties, dress slacks, and dress shoes passing around bread and juice, There is community news like upcoming social and work events, soliciting volunteers and naming and thanking and congratulating people who volunteered. I think if I remember correctly that is also where persons find out in front of everyone (!) that God has volunteered them to assume some official position of leadership and service to some area of responsibility to the church. Then it concludes with the part where random people give random, various, often-rambling testimonies about what they’ve done or been thinking lately. And I can tell you it was hard to hold back and not tell my OWN testimony. I wanted to gag at the avid “…and I believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God!” conclusions to their ramblings - I wanted to stand up and say, “That’s not what you are supposed to witnessing to!” But, not the time and place, however much I wanted.

But the long and boring Sunday School teaching after that - that is appropriate. Those missionaries should leave him alone now! And its useful for them to have learned a basic lesson that real teachers know, called: “Check for understanding.” If these missionaries had been open to and had taken the time to inquire and consider what our OP was thinking and feeling, they would not have invited him back to their church. So - their error. But “Natural consequences” is an excellent lesson.

Good for you, OP.

So, you would be OK with someone making a scene at Mass?

What he did is the equivalent to doing just that.

 

[twopekinguys]

Whether the OP had the “right” to do this is irrelevant. His diatribe was uncharitable and just reinforced the LDS people’s martyr complex. They probably felt like they (and their religion) were under attack. He built walls instead of tearing them down, and that is regrettable. Had he firmly testified his Catholic beliefs with a spirit of love that would have been one thing, but instead he put everyone on the defensive. I’ll be praying for the OP and the LDS people that had to sit through his ranting.

Can I get an AMEN!?!

 

[Eliza10]

So, you would be OK with someone making a scene at Mass?

What he did is the equivalent to doing just that.

I explained it. You must not have read my post before you quoted it.

As I made clear in my post, only their service is what they could compare to our Mass (for the uninformed!).

The Sunday School could be compared to a Sunday School. It was at the Sunday School that he spoke.

Their “Service” is a formal service for the whole congregation with a rather prescribed formula. It would be inappropriate to interrupt it with something off-topic. Or even speak of non-Mormon things when random people start speaking of random things during it.

Perhaps you have been to Sunday School classes that are formal lectures in large rooms. That’s not what they have. They divide people up by sex and age and have small group Sunday Schools in classroom spaces with much more informal discussions.

That should clear it up for you.

 

[Eliza10]

He was in someone else’s house of worship. It does not matter what the activity was. It was immature and uncalled for.

…I disagree with mormonism, and all it espouses, but if I am in one of their church facilities, I am going to be respectful. If something gets totally out of line, or creeps me out, I will politely excuse myself and leave. After all, the doors aren’t locked…

It really isn’t that hard to figure out.

I think there is nothing wrong with your doing it that way. Voting with your feet is an acceptable protest to being proselytized to with a perverted gospel [spawned by a *pervert – and that is my most sincere opinion, and its based on Mormon-approved facts].

It seems as if you think there is only one right response here, which would be your own. I disagree. Your two ways are different and appropriate. (And as I stated, there are wrong ways, like addressing the entire congregation at Service).

Perhaps if you had been to a Mormon Sunday Sunday school you would see the informal, discussion mode and then you would not make the judgment that the OP’s actions were unacceptable.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think there is nothing wrong with your doing it that way. Voting with your feet is an acceptable protest to being proselytized to with a perverted gospel [spawned by a *pervert

– and that is my most sincere opinion, and its based on Mormon-approved facts].

It seems as if you think there is only one right response here, which would be your own. I disagree. Your two ways are different and appropriate. (And as I stated, there are wrong ways, like addressing the entire congregation at Service).

Perhaps if you had been to a Mormon Sunday Sunday school you would see the informal, discussion mode and then you would not make the judgment that the OP’s actions were unacceptable.

I have been to multiple Mormon services. I have family that is and were mormons, so, as you can see your assumption is completely off base.

Your condescension is duly noted, and found objectionable. You really shouldn’t make such foolish assumptions.

It all boils down to respect. I may not like something, but, when I am on their turf, I am going to respect them.

This happened in their house of worship. Regardless of what service or portion of the block they were in.

Remember, he was "invited’, not commanded, coerced, or forced to attend those services.

Would you like this happening in your home from an invited guest?

I don’t think so.

ETA: Perhaps you missed or didn’t read my previous post where I included adoration. (it isn’t mass)

 

[LivingWaters7]

So, if we invite someone to Mass, or Adoration, you’re OK with them standing up in the middle of it and having a hissie fit, because they disagree with it?

He was in someone else’s house of worship. It does not matter what the activity was. It was immature and uncalled for.

I disagree with mormonism, and all it espouses, but if I am in one of their church facilities, I am going to be respectful. If something gets totally out of line, or creeps me out, I will politely excuse myself and leave. After all, the doors aren’t locked.

It really isn’t that hard to figure out.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I explained it. You must not have read my post before you quoted it.

As I made clear in my post, only their service is what they could compare to our Mass (for the uninformed!).

The Sunday School could be compared to a Sunday School. It was at the Sunday School that he spoke.

Their “Service” is a formal service for the whole congregation with a rather prescribed formula. It would be inappropriate to interrupt it with something off-topic. Or even speak of non-Mormon things when random people start speaking of random things during it.

Perhaps you have been to Sunday School classes that are formal lectures in large rooms. That’s not what they have. They divide people up by sex and age and have small group Sunday Schools in classroom spaces with much more informal discussions.

That should clear it up for you.

Perhaps you are not remembering your experience clearly. There really isn’t anything “informal” about the 2nd and 3rd meetings Mormons attend on Sunday.

Sunday School is not divided by sex. After Sacrament Meeting (Mormons don’t call it “Service”), Mormons have Sunday School, where males and females, ages 12 and up (children younger than 12 attend Primary), gather to read and study the LDS scriptures, frequently with life applications. Each year is devoted to a different volume of scripture (Old Testament/Pearl of Great Price, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants/Church History). There is also another class that meets during the Sunday School hour, Gospel Principles. This is probably the class that the OP attended if he went to church with the missionaries. It is for “investigators” and new Mormons (and anyone that wants to attend). The full-time missionaries and ward missionaries attend this as well. You study the Gospel Principles manual, which has chapters on different aspects of the LDS religion. At times, they may also have other short classes for specific members preparing for something, like Marriage Preparation, Temple Preparation (for the Endowment), and Mission Preparation.

Either way, the Sunday School classes are not informal (unless you simply mean that they allow more participation than Sacrament Meeting, which is true, since these are classes). Depending on which class we’re talking about, each is under the direction of the Sunday School President, the Ward Mission Leader, or the Bishopric. There are formally called Sunday School instructors and Ward Missionaries that teach the classes, and the topic for each weekly lesson has already been decided from the beginning of the year. Yes, discussion is strongly encouraged. I’ve attended many Sunday School and Gospel Principles classes where there were non-Mormons that shared their non-Mormon views on certain things, including if they disagreed with something. The difference is that, as others have already stated, they didn’t go and disrespect Mormon beliefs, call them “garbage”, etc. I would never dream of going to someone else’s house of worship, whether Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, etc, no matter if it’s a worship experience or religious class, and disrespect the beliefs of those I’m visiting with, no matter how much I disagree with them or think they’re false.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I don’t understand all the shaming the OP is getting here. OP did great. They must have misread. At least one here thought he had stood up in service. Must have never been to a Mormon Sunday. I have.

It goes on forever. General service includes boring hymns you never heard of (I suppose except at Christmas) from a hymnbook, hardly any Scripture if any [that boring Book of Mormon is NOT Scripture], a routine of nice young boys dressed in white shirts, ties, dress slacks, and dress shoes passing around bread and juice, There is community news like upcoming social and work events, soliciting volunteers and naming and thanking and congratulating people who volunteered. I think if I remember correctly that is also where persons find out in front of everyone (!) that God has volunteered them to assume some official position of leadership and service to some area of responsibility to the church. Then it concludes with the part where random people give random, various, often-rambling testimonies about what they’ve done or been thinking lately. And I can tell you it was hard to hold back and not tell my OWN testimony. I wanted to gag at the avid “…and I believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God!” conclusions to their ramblings - I wanted to stand up and say, “That’s not what you are supposed to witnessing to!” But, not the time and place, however much I wanted.

But the long and boring Sunday School teaching after that - that is appropriate. Those missionaries should leave him alone now! And its useful for them to have learned a basic lesson that real teachers know, called: “Check for understanding.” If these missionaries had been open to and had taken the time to inquire and consider what our OP was thinking and feeling, they would not have invited him back to their church. So - their error. But “Natural consequences” is an excellent lesson.

Good for you, OP.

Perhaps you aren’t remembering your experiences as clearly as you think.

In “Sacrament Meeting”, Mormons pass around bread and water, not bread and juice. The part about testimonies is one Sunday out of the month (the first Sunday), which is part of what Mormons call “Fast and Testimony Meeting”. Mormons fast prior to attending, then during the Sacrament Meeting, they are invited to share their testimonies, if they desire. The other Sundays of the month are much less informal, and consist of 2-4 “talks” or sermons by congregation members on topics assigned by the leaders of the congregation, prepared in advance. For example, one Sunday the topic may be temples, or charity, or tithing, or faith in Christ, etc.

Volunteers for activities or service events would not be solicited during Sacrament Meeting. That would occur during Sunday School or Priesthood/Relief Society/Young Men/Young Women. Yes, if you have been “called” to a position in the church, and have agreed to serve in that calling, they would announce that calling, you would stand, and the members would “sustain” you in that calling.

And no, that would not be appropriate in Sunday School, as I and others have already talked about.

 

[jmcrae]

I was taught by nuns, but I never ran across one of the ruler brandishing ones we read so much about. I’m sure they were there, just not in my neighborhood, and probably few and far between. Oops! Now here come the stories!

I went to public school; we had teachers who didn’t believe in any kind of religion brandishing every kind of stick, to smack us if we got out of line. It was the times; the common wisdom (known humorously as the “ketchup bottle theory”) was that if you smack a child’s bottom often enough and hard enough, sweet goodness would come out the top.

It had nothing to do with being a nun; it was just how children were raised in those days.

 

[ffg]

Goodness, it’s from your own post – (1) the missionaries ignoring his request that they leave him alone, and (2) his actions at their meeting.

Thanks, I figured those two.

Those two being wrong are your opinion.

Nowhere did I say there was a ‘wrong’.

Being offended does not necessarily equate to a wrong from the other side. This was my point in the earlier note, playing off of your second line. I agree there can be favorable ways to communicate, but the message is the important part.

Everyone is different, if one person in that room heard a message through the tone and decided to do further research, that’s a good thing. If all that came from it was this guy’s name comes off a list, also mission accomplished.

If nothing changed and he keeps getting visits often, ah well, such is life.

I find it sad that Catholics on this site were quick to rip this guy for doing something strong. Especially seeing people tell their stories of being very rude and then pointing at this guy.

 

[agnes_therese]

Nowhere did you say there was a ‘wrong?’ To quote you: “I’m sure the OP felt ‘insulted’ that this group didn’t listen to him, the first, the second, the third, the fourth, etc. time.”
Sorry, that really sounds like you think they were wrong not to listen to him.

There’s really no point in continuing this. Some of us prefer the golden rule, others prefer “an eye for an eye.” If you think insulting people’s faith is a good thing to do, there’s nothing I can do to stop you. Enjoy!

Thanks, I figured those two.

Those two being wrong are your opinion.

Nowhere did I say there was a ‘wrong’.

Being offended does not necessarily equate to a wrong from the other side. This was my point in the earlier note, playing off of your second line. I agree there can be favorable ways to communicate, but the message is the important part.

Everyone is different, if one person in that room heard a message through the tone and decided to do further research, that’s a good thing. If all that came from it was this guy’s name comes off a list, also mission accomplished.

If nothing changed and he keeps getting visits often, ah well, such is life.

I find it sad that Catholics on this site were quick to rip this guy for doing something strong. Especially seeing people tell their stories of being very rude and then pointing at this guy.

 

[Eliza10]

Perhaps you are not remembering your experience clearly… …

You are absolutely right, I am not remembering it clearly, I am sure you and twopekingguys have been to dozens or even hundreds of more Mormon services than me and you are both definitely far superior experts on what goes on there and no one should turn to me as an expert on that.

I agree that the OPs words in the morning meeting are not a part of the prescribed goings on at Sunday school. And I understand it is your opinion that he should not have said anything that was much on his mind at that meeting.

But from an outsiders point of view, after all that proselytizing that wearied the OP, it seems reasonable to me, at that time and in that far less formal setting (than the service), to say something like what he said to the proselytizer. I understand you find it too offensive.

I believe in the free exchange of ideas. Its in our catechism. Its okay with me that you disagree with me. I am just saying what I think. I hope you don’t mind.

 

[Eliza10]

…
Your condescension is duly noted, and found objectionable. You really shouldn’t make such foolish assumptions.

I am honestly not being condescending to you. I do hold a different opinion of this situation than you. It is okay with me that you have a different opinion from me. I hope its okay with you that I have a different one from you.

Believe me, I am not condescending to people or to you. Believe me I am known IRL to be quite the opposite. Please don’t take my passionate feelings about religious coercion and about how false teachings that enslave innocent who are people trying to please God to be a personal insult to you when I disagree. I think much on what is right and wrong, particularly in areas of faith, because faith beliefs and practices of myself and of others have impacted so much of my life, and I like to put my thoughts into words. If putting my sincere thought into words comes off like coercion, I would very much like to understand.

As Catholics, we believe in free exchange of ideas. I am trying to pad my ideas as much as possible with “in my opinion” and “I think”.

I would like to express my ideas here, and to you its coming out like condescension, when I don’t mean to be condescending at all. So if you have any specific ideas how I can express an idea that is opposes your strong thoughts without coming across as condescending, please, please, do let me know.

Perhaps you could give an example of a nicer way to say my thoughts than the way I said them. That would help.

And, I only want to say what I think - I do not what to say anyone’s ideas are no good.

For me, respecting free exchange of ideas takes a top priority.

.This happened in their house of worship. Regardless of what service or portion of the block they were in.

True but as an aside, perhaps you will agree since you were Mormon and are now Catholic, I don’t see much worship in the Mormon worship services. I see a lot of very very nice and friendly and likable people, but I feel spiritually depleted for lack of worship after a service there. Its pleasant, but boring. To me.

…Remember, he was "invited’, not commanded, coerced, or forced to attend those services.

Yes this is true but it seems he felt not only invited but perhaps persuaded or at least socially obligated.

I know I have accepted Books of Mormon and propaganda pamphlets from Mormons not because I wanted them, at all, but because I felt obligated. And I didn’t like having them or that I accepted them; it caused me much discomfort. I had to work hard to make myself have that unpleasant “No thank you” moment when they were so nicely and cheerfully handed to me as if a great and special gift. Likewise the OP went, but uncomfortably. He asked our help saying no. I really get that.

…Would you like this happening in your home from an invited guest?

I don’t think so.

I hope you don’t mind saying, but I wouldn’t mind. I have a lot of tolerance, I guess. I like to let people have differing opinions, especially if they are passionate about them. I would let the person have their say. I would say where I stood if they cared. If this was all they wanted to talk about when they came to my house despite being asked to drop the subject after it was exhausted and after we were clear where we disagreed, then I could choose to just not invite them again. But I really don’t mind opposing opinions in my own house.

ETA: Perhaps you missed or didn’t read my previous post where I included adoration. (it isn’t mass)

Yes, I saw that and didn’t respond because I didn’t see a connection. So I just avoided that mention. I mean, that’s Jesus in the Eucharist and if someone interrupted I would assume they did not know what we believe and I would kindly take them outside to talk about what is on their mind. And as to Mass, anyone who would interrupt* any* public ceremony has other problems than religious ones.

So we are back to my point that, to me, the different scenarios (Sunday School vs. Service) really matter as to when the OP spoke.

I completely and totally respect that you think that the different scenarios don’t matter. Am I correct that you think that in that entire church property he should not share his opposing opinion, or do you just mean, not even in an informal Sunday School discussion??

Oh well, I feel I am walking on eggshells here, because I am so surprised at your accusation and not sure why you accused me. Please do tell me if you think I am even more condescending when I am trying hard to be not condescending. If you would prefer, I just wont respond to your posts if that’s what you want. Just let me know and I will submit to your wish.

 

[Eliza10]

…
There’s really no point in continuing this. Some of us prefer the golden rule, others prefer “an eye for an eye.”

Oh dear. That seems an unfair accusation. Let’s be kind.

…If you think insulting people’s faith is a good thing to do, there’s nothing I can do to stop you. Enjoy!

Enjoy? Hmm. Maybe sarcastic hits don’t make for charitable conversation.

I think that when people proselytize false beliefs, stating falsehoods as Gods eternal truth, we have an obligation to tell the them their beliefs are false. They can take it one of two ways:

1. “That person has a different idea of truth than me”, or,
2. “That person is insulting my faith.”

See? Two different responses to the same thing said. We cannot control which way they take it. If *they consider it *an insult, it doesn’t mean it is.

So as to your statement to “ffg”, consider that perhaps he doesn’t enjoy insulting people’s beliefs, but feels an obligation to state truth in the face of falsehood.

It is charitable to assume the latter, and we are called to have charitable exchanges on CAF.

 

[BettyBoop416]

I am a Catholic, I have spoken to the Mormon missionaries recently, they approached me and we talked for a little. They talked me going to one of their church services and I agreed to it just out of curiosity.

This reminds me of the time, several years ago, that my husband and I took a tour of Temple Square in Salt Lake City. Towards the end of the tour they passed out some information cards for us to fill out so that we could receive a free copy of the Book of Mormon. Since I enjoy reading about different religions I thought that I’d like to receive a copy. My husband looked at me in disbelief and said, “What the hell are you doing? If you hand in that card we’ll have an army of white-shirt-wearing, bicycle-riding college-aged kids beating a path to our door. If you really want a copy of that book I’ll buy you one in the gift shop.”

After a minute or so of silence he said, “You still have that card? I bet your mother would LOVE to receive a free copy of the Book of Mormon.”

 

[pismopal]

LDS folks, including in some cases relatives, are just peaches and cream up until they are convinced that there is no chance of getting you to get involved in the LDS club. After that you are a pariah. Avoid the hassle…tell them, as I do, “I am a happy and contented Catholic and I have no time to waste with you…have a nice day!”