Need help getting the head nod and bows right

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Lux_et_veritas:
Help me out here people. I’ve been attending mass at an orthodox parish, which often includes lots of latin and TLM gestures into its Novus Ordo mass.

I’ve noticed all to often that everyone will nod their heads in unison at certain times, and most often I associate this with any time the name Jesus Christ is mentioned.

When saying the “Glory Be” in Latin, we bow down through the first half, “Gloria Patri, et filio, et spiritui sancto”, before rising and completing it.

But, there are other times that I pick up a head nod or bow and I can’t put my finger on it.

Clues please?
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I know you are supposed to bow your head anytime the name of Christ is mention, as a form of respect.
 
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rcn:
You can “Huh” all you want, but unless it’s in the missal, it’s not to be done.
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Whether it is in the missal is not the determination of whether it is to be done. I don’t think the missal mentions the bow we are supposed to do at the time when the incarnation is mentioned in the creed.
 
Pariah Pirana:
How are adding these gestures different than adding the orans position or hand-holding?
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Those are not added gestures. They are what we are supposed to do at mass. We are supposed to bow when it is mentioned that Christ became man in the creed. Crossing yourself when the three persons of the Trinity are mentioned is not an abuse either. Striking the breast during the confiteor is also supposed to be done.
 
Pariah Pirana:
It’s horribly hypocritical.

If something is not specified for the Mass being celebrated, adding-in a “hold-over” is just as wrong as adding in (for example) the orans or the hand-holding.

Your posting illustrates a huge problem I see with most self-described “traditionalists.” They decry things like hand-holding or the use of the orans (perhaps rightfully so) yet they encourage those things they feel are “good” or “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

That’s horribly wrong and it kills credibility.
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Read the link msproule gave. It mentions what the US bishops say about it. I think they have much more authority than anyone on this forum.
 
I find it interesting, to say the least, that so many worry and watch…worry that I’m not bowing at the right time…and watching who’s doing what. If you are new to the Church, seek out your sponsor, your pastor/spiritual director, or someone that you trust is truly sincere and practicing the faith as directed and ask those questions…if you forget to do one of the “prescribed” bows, I truly do not believe that God is “up there” keeping score…just relax and pray the Mass…buy yourself a
copy of the GIRM and read and study it.
As far as the watching what others do…I found that it is much better for my own state of mind, to either close my eyes or just focus on the altar and the words that I am hearing or reciting. Otherwise, you’ll go nuts!!! There are always people who want to do their own thing! I came across a Scripture verse from Acts…can’t recall the exact chapter and verse, but in effect it says that we should not criticize the actions of others, if it does not come from God, it will destroy itself…(I know I am paraphrasing here) but that is the essence…now I am not referring to blatant Liturgical abuses, they should and must be handled through the Pastor and on up the ladder…but don’t sweat the small stuff. Hand holding during the Our Father…we don’t do it, but lots of churches here in Florida do…don’t know why but when I am in another church, I simply fold my hands and close my eyes and no one seems to bother me…if I am at my son’s church, I do hold my family’s hands…just a closeness as a family. Don’t think I’ll go to hell for that.
Blessings to all. :cool:
 
I have never seen one Tridentiner here lament about the fact that many cross themselves after the penetential rite – even though there is nothing that tells them to do that. For some reason it’s OK with the Tridentiners.

Conversely they get all knotted-up when it comes to hand-holding, the orans and the kiss of peace itself.

The non-uniformity of their actions are quite interesting – as if they know what is “best” – even if it does not follow what the Church directs.

Fascinating indeed.
 
Pariah Pirana:
I have never seen one Tridentiner here lament about the fact that many cross themselves after the penetential rite – even though there is nothing that tells them to do that. For some reason it’s OK with the Tridentiners.

Conversely they get all knotted-up when it comes to hand-holding, the orans and the kiss of peace itself.

The non-uniformity of their actions are quite interesting – as if they know what is “best” – even if it does not follow what the Church directs.

Fascinating indeed.
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I have never seen anyone cross themselves after the penitential rite. What is your problem with crossing yourself anyways? It is not an abuse to cross yourself at anytime in the mass. You worry about things that do not change any meaning and do not affect anyone else. The signs that are done in mass, like the bowing are done for respect. As the link above shows, they are still in effect according to the Bishops.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
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  1. Handholding makes the people feel good. Nodding your head, bowing, striking the breast is aimed at respect towards God.
It is the very issue that I’ve been delving into the last few weeks of People-Centered Worship versus God-Centered Worship.

People-Centered Worship tends to become conditional worship. God-Centered Worship is unconditional
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Obviously you oppose handholding. While I am neutral (despite what many here write) it is not so much people centered as uniting our prayer and lifting it up as one voice to God. “Where two or three are gathered in my name…”
 
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jimmy:
Whether it is in the missal is not the determination of whether it is to be done. I don’t think the missal mentions the bow we are supposed to do at the time when the incarnation is mentioned in the creed.
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The Missalette in my Church mentions it.
 
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jimmy:
Read the link msproule gave. It mentions what the US bishops say about it. I think they have much more authority than anyone on this forum.
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I agree. And they have also said there is no posture prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, so if orans is out because it is not specifically mentioned, so is the folded hands.
 
The bow during the creed is mentioned in the GIRM, as well as most Misalettes. Yes, we should do it, and we should also bow (not genuflect) as a sign of reverence before Holy Communion (the Blood as well as the Body).

I have never seen anyone corrected individually for omitting these bows. The sign of reverence before Communion was instructed from the pulpit and written in the bulletin in my Parish. The bow during the Creed was never mentioned (Perhaps because the bow before Communion was part of RS, while the bow in the creed was not mentioned, and it was RS which was implemented on the First Sunday of Advent 2004)

It is the actions of the Priest which declare the Mass Valid or Licit. Also I do not think ligitimate postures or gestures by the congregation are even considered a minor abuse.

This is also from the USCCB-Postures & Gestures insert
But there are other gestures that intensify our prayer at Mass. During the Confiteor the action of striking our breasts at the words through my own fault can strengthen my awareness that my sin is my fault. In the Creed we are invited to bow at the words which commemorate the Incarnation: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. This gesture signifies our profound respect and gratitude to Christ who, though God, did not hesitate to come among us as a human being, sharing our human condition in order to save us from sin and restore us to friendship with God. This gratitude is expressed with even greater solemnity on the Feast of the Annunciation of the Lord and on Christmas when we genuflect at these words.
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There gestures are not mentioned, but clearly they allowed. I imagine the only problem would be using a different posture, when one is instructed (A genuflection before Communion, rather than a bow)

We really need to be tolerant and loving to one another–and not ridicule someone because they worship differently, and criticize someone, when you do not have the authority, and may not even have a real understanding of the norms.

As I said before, Just look at the number of views, and realize what you are showing people (probably some considering converting). I sincerely hope your some of the intolerance does not turn away a possible convert.
 
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Mysty101:
Obviously you oppose handholding. While I am neutral (despite what many here write) it is not so much people centered as uniting our prayer and lifting it up as one voice to God. “Where two or three are gathered in my name…”
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Incorrect assumption.

I’ve only been attending a parish with a heavily orthodox base and clergy for about 4 weeks now. I will not pull my hand away if someone goes to take it during the Our Father and did this during a funeral at another parish after not having held hands for 4 weeks when someone reached out. I felt it was more charitable to accept the hand of those reaching for mine, than it was to stick on a principle that has been building within me, to detach from everything and everyone that is not Him. I was deeply in prayer at the time that my hands were grabbed and it did take my mind off of Him and onto the hands that were holding mine - a time of detatchment, for attachment.

I believe it is also an incorrect assumption that one must touch to contribute to the “Where two or three are gathered in my name…”
 
Pariah Pirana:
How are adding these gestures different than adding the orans position or hand-holding?
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Here is how it is different. I just found this and will verify that it is correct this weekend with my Uncle.

"There are also symbolic problems associated with their doing so. No matter how the posture may or may not have been used in antiquity, today it is a priestly posture in the liturgy.

This is repeatedly made clear in the Church’s liturgical documents. For example, the Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

Similarly, in the Book of Blessings, whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined.

Because of the special association praying with hands outstretched has with priestly office, some dissident elements in the Church have desired to get the laity into the habit of praying in this posture during Mass. This furthers the dissident agenda of continuing to blur the line between the laity and the clergy.

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

The reference to gestures that are appropriate to the priest celebrating the Mass certainly includes praying with arms outstretched, which is probably the single most frequent gesture the rubrics direct him to make during Mass and which is clearly tied to the office of priest in the Church’s liturgical documents.

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched."

There are more instructions from the church than just the GIRM. When Bishops of individual Diocese (or individual Catholics for that matter) look at only one document, they run into problems.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I believe it is also an incorrect assumption that one must touch to contribute to the “Where two or three are gathered in my name…”
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First of all, I never said anyone MUST touch. I just offered another possible reason why some wish to join hands. I also agree that it is wrong to try to force anyone, but I also realize that many times it is just someone trying to reach out to his neighbor. I rarely refuse (except if it is someone reaching over the pew from a different row), but if I did wish to refuse, I would do it with a smile, and “no thank you”. I would never ignore anyone, especially in Church.

Also with the orans position—I never said anyone should use it. I just said I have not seen any official liturgical word which states it is forbidden, that it is unchristian to ridicule anyone for their Religious posture, and everyone needs to realize that many people (even possible converts) are reading.
 
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jimmy:
I have never seen anyone cross themselves after the penitential rite. What is your problem with crossing yourself anyways? It is not an abuse to cross yourself at anytime in the mass. You worry about things that do not change any meaning and do not affect anyone else. The signs that are done in mass, like the bowing are done for respect. As the link above shows, they are still in effect according to the Bishops.
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It’s not called out in the rubrics – much like holding hands or assuming the orans position…
 
Pariah Pirana:
It’s not called out in the rubrics – much like holding hands or assuming the orans position…
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Please read post 53.
The Orans is a priestly gesture and not to be assumed by the laity.
If something is not stated in the General Instruction of the RomanMissal one must look to other documents for the references.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Please read post 53.
The Orans is a priestly gesture and not to be assumed by the laity.
If something is not stated in the General Instruction of the RomanMissal one must look to other documents for the references.
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It’s not called out in the rubrics – much like holding hands or assuming the orans position…
 
Net,

You are quoting something besides Collaboration–please reference.

If this is not a liturgical document, then it is still an unofficial interpretation.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Here is how it is different. I just found this and will verify that it is correct this weekend with my Uncle.

"There are also symbolic problems associated with their doing so. No matter how the posture may or may not have been used in antiquity, today it is a priestly posture in the liturgy.

This is repeatedly made clear in the Church’s liturgical documents. For example, the Ceremonial of Bishops notes: “Customarily in the Church a bishop or presbyter addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched” (CB 104).

Similarly, in the Book of Blessings, whenever there is a blessing which can be performed either by a member of the clergy or the laity, the rubrics invariably directs that “A minister who is a priest or deacon says the prayer of blessing with hands outstretched; a lay minister says the prayer with hands joined” (BB 1999). Over and over again, the rubrics direct clergy to pray with hands outstretched and laity with hands joined.

Because of the special association praying with hands outstretched has with priestly office, some dissident elements in the Church have desired to get the laity into the habit of praying in this posture during Mass. This furthers the dissident agenda of continuing to blur the line between the laity and the clergy.

Fortunately, the recent Instruction on Collaboration (Nov. 13, 1997) drew the line on this issue and specifically mandated that “Neither may . . . non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the . . . priest celebrant” (ICP, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

The reference to gestures that are appropriate to the priest celebrating the Mass certainly includes praying with arms outstretched, which is probably the single most frequent gesture the rubrics direct him to make during Mass and which is clearly tied to the office of priest in the Church’s liturgical documents.

Consequently, in the liturgy, laity should not be praying with hands outstretched."

There are more instructions from the church than just the GIRM. When Bishops of individual Diocese (or individual Catholics for that matter) look at only one document, they run into problems.
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And not a single one of them directs the faithful NOT to assume the orans position or the holding of hands…
 
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