Need Help - how do I deal w/ a vindictive Pastor?

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hwinston

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I need some help, advice and prayers, please. I’m dumbfounded by the position I find my family in and don’t know how best to deal with it.

We’re members of a local parish in Phoenix where four of our children attend the parish grade school. We are active parishioners, our oldest boys serve the 7:30AM Mass at least two weeks each month and my wife and I are cub scout leaders at school. We have been supportive of Catholic schools since our oldest of 8 was in kindergarten.

Last week, my sixth grader got into serious trouble. On Wednesday, my wife was called to come pick her up from school - she had a pocket knife in her pencil bag. My daughter explained that she had put it in her pencil bag on Monday after taking it away from her 4 year old brother. She expalined this to the principal and to my wife as well as the police who were called as per the school’s policy. The school decided to suspend her for one day. We thought that was it.

On Thursday, the school called my wife and daughter back up to school. Apparently, the principal had received a call from a concerned parent that my daughter, approximately one month before, had told her daughter that she wished another friend was dead or something to that affect. The school felt the comment, plus the fact that there was a pocket knife in her pencil bag were related, despite my daughter’s explanation or the fact that my daughter and the girl whom she made the comment about are friends and they regularly play together or spend the night at each other’s houses.

The next day, my wife was called - the school, after consulting with the parish priest decided to expell my daughter from school. There are only two weeks left in the school year. There was no explanation, no paperwork, just a mater-of-fact statement over the phone to my wife.

When my wife called me with this update, I suggested she get an appointment with the parish priest and she left a message for him. When I got home later that day (was on a business trip), I called to make an appointment with the Principal and was told, by her, that she couldn’t meet until after the weekend - on Tuesday. She later called back, about an hour later and said there was no reason to meet since the decision was made and there was nothing further to talk about.

My wife also received a call from the Parish Office, Fr. John would not meet with her and would not speak with her about the matter. Both of us were perplexed by this but what happened next is almost infuriating to me. My wife was notified by the schedule coordinator that both of my boys - a 10th grader and my recently graduated 8th grader - were removed from the altar serving calendar, by direction of the parish priest.

This just doesn’t make any sense to me and I don’t know how to best handle it. I can think of a lot of ways I could try to address the anger, bewhilderment and frustration of this, but I know there are far better, more constructive and more Christian ways to do so than what is coming to my mind.

I don’t agree with the school’s decision about my 6th grade daughter, but I can accept that it is their decision to make. I’m shocked, however, in the decision the Parish Priest has made in refusing to meet with me or my wife and then in removing my two boys from serving at the altar.

Any ideas on how best to handle this? I don’t want to leave the parish, but we’re going to have to consider it. Is there an official process to take a complaint about a Parish Priest or his actions to a higher authority? Is there such a thing in this case?

Thanks and God Bless.

HWinston
 
I can understand why you would be upset. Pull them out of that school and change Parishes. Just move on. Give your money to some other school and Parish.
 
  1. Remove the names and location of the case from the post if you still can.
  2. It sounds to me like you just got caught up in the crazy overreaction to school violence that is sweeping all schools these days. Kids are getting suspended for chewing poptarts into the shape of guns these days, so what happened to your daughter is pretty normal, unfortunately. I don’t think that what you described was vindictiveness though. Maybe overcautious to the point of causing harm to a student who probably was not a danger. She did break the rules, though.
  3. The phrase pocket knife describes a lot of tools. Was this a little Victorinox Swiss Army knife or was it something like a Spyderco Endura? That makes a pretty big difference here in terms of intent and risk. If you look at this from his perspective, he is responsible for the safety and welfare of all the students at the school. Perhaps you can work out a deal for her to re-apply at some date in the future? Also, families which are familiar with knives and guns are utterly alien to people who are not so familiar. A knife can easily freak those people out, especially carried by a child, even though it was normal for kids her age to carry knives to school at one time (i.e. scout knives).
 
You can try and take it up with the diocese, but I doubt if you would get very far. I would change parishes and schools as soon as possible and immediately drop all your activities in your present parish.
 
hwinston said:
I need some help, advice and prayers, please. I’m dumbfounded by the position I find my family in and don’t know how best to deal with it.

We’re members of a local parish in Phoenix where four of our children attend the parish grade school. We are active parishioners, our oldest boys serve the 7:30AM Mass at least two weeks each month and my wife and I are cub scout leaders at school. We have been supportive of Catholic schools since our oldest of 8 was in kindergarten.

Last week, my sixth grader got into serious trouble. On Wednesday, my wife was called to come pick her up from school - she had a pocket knife in her pencil bag. My daughter explained that she had put it in her pencil bag on Monday after taking it away from her 4 year old brother. She expalined this to the principal and to my wife as well as the police who were called as per the school’s policy. The school decided to suspend her for one day. We thought that was it.

On Thursday, the school called my wife and daughter back up to school. Apparently, the principal had received a call from a concerned parent that my daughter, approximately one month before, had told her daughter that she wished another friend was dead or something to that affect. The school felt the comment, plus the fact that there was a pocket knife in her pencil bag were related, despite my daughter’s explanation or the fact that my daughter and the girl whom she made the comment about are friends and they regularly play together or spend the night at each other’s houses.

The next day, my wife was called - the school, after consulting with the parish priest decided to expell my daughter from school. There are only two weeks left in the school year. There was no explanation, no paperwork, just a mater-of-fact statement over the phone to my wife.

When my wife called me with this update, I suggested she get an appointment with the parish priest and she left a message for him. When I got home later that day (was on a business trip), I called to make an appointment with the Principal and was told, by her, that she couldn’t meet until after the weekend - on Tuesday. She later called back, about an hour later and said there was no reason to meet since the decision was made and there was nothing further to talk about.

My wife also received a call from the Parish Office, Fr. John would not meet with her and would not speak with her about the matter. Both of us were perplexed by this but what happened next is almost infuriating to me. My wife was notified by the schedule coordinator that both of my boys - a 10th grader and my recently graduated 8th grader - were removed from the altar serving calendar, by direction of the parish priest.

This just doesn’t make any sense to me and I don’t know how to best handle it. I can think of a lot of ways I could try to address the anger, bewhilderment and frustration of this, but I know there are far better, more constructive and more Christian ways to do so than what is coming to my mind.

I don’t agree with the school’s decision about my 6th grade daughter, but I can accept that it is their decision to make. I’m shocked, however, in the decision the Parish Priest has made in refusing to meet with me or my wife and then in removing my two boys from serving at the altar.

Any ideas on how best to handle this? I don’t want to leave the parish, but we’re going to have to consider it. Is there an official process to take a complaint about a Parish Priest or his actions to a higher authority? Is there such a thing in this case?

Thanks and God Bless.

HWinston
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I agree with Rete that this sounds like one of the zero-tolerance stories we’ve all heard before.

Start calling the principal’s and the pastor’s office every day until you get an appointment to talk to them. If that doesn’t work, start calling the bishop’s office every day until you get action. And if that doesn’t work, start calling every publication or TV station in the state with your story.

I would suggest (before you get to the press, which is the nuclear option) that when talking to the principal, the pastor or the bishop’s office, that you offer to have your daughter psychologically evaluated. You can also mention that you’ve been told to take your story to the press, but you felt like you owed them the opportunity to give you their side of the story first.

My feeling is that when parents push back, schools usually fold. The only question is whether you would be setting a good precedent. My feeling is that if they take you up on the psych evaluation (which is a face-saving measure, to some degree) then that’s not at all a bad precedent. You don’t want the school to fold too fast when they are afraid that a student poses a danger to other students, but this does look like a classic case of overreaction. We are not in the middle of a crime wave involving stabby middle school girls.
 
OP, there is such a thing as true-true-and-unrelated. You don’t know what someone may have said or done that got your boys removed from altar serving. It may have nothing to do with the issue with your daughter and the school. If your daughter told someone that she wished someone else was dead and you never heard about it, there may be a lot of things you aren’t being told. (Well, that is true of any parent, not just you!!) Who knows, Father may have decided not to let servers keep going past 8th grade, in order to give the younger ones a chance. Stranger things have happened.

Stay calm, and realize that you may be the last to know about a bad situation that is only the fault of the decision of one or many to keep you in the dark. Realize that when you know the facts, you may disagree not with what was done, but only with how it was done. Realize, too, that the priest may not know that you don’t know!! He may think you know and that you’re in denial or trying to defend the indefensible. Not possible? You just don’t know yet. Be humble, and go in with the attitude that something is not adding up and you aren’t ready to make anything like a judgment about any of the actors in this drama just yet. What you want is not a fight. What you want is not control or to get your own way. Right now, what you want is answers, and you are fully ready that the facts may be the kind that blindside you.

You need to calmly ask the priest what is going on, because there could be a lot more that has been said to him about this than you know. Be calm, but be persistent. Make it clear that you think you deserve an explanation, even if he is adamant that he will not change his mind, because if nothing else your sons deserve to know why they’ve been expelled from the altar with not so much as a fare-thee-well from him. If there is something else going on, you as the parents deserve to know what it is. If they know, then you need to know what they’re not telling you.

If the priest refuses to meet with you, then yes, you should call the vicar of clergy for your diocese and say that your daughter has been expelled from the school and two of your other children thrown out of altar serving, and you can’t get the parish priest to meet with you and explain these decisions. If you can’t get the principal to meet with you, you ought to call the superintendent of Catholic schools. This is not an acceptable situation.
 
Just change Parishes/schools…sounds simple enough…I don’t mean to minimize what you are feeling…I believe everything you have stated…take you money elsewhere…By the way…my four children (the last of which is about to enter 10th grade) all went to our Parish school., we too were active in the Parish, my children served Mass…and the list goes on…so I know it will not be easy to have your children move…but at the risk of sounding profound…chidlren are remarkably resilient…I would be extremely kind and loving towards the school staff…and thank them for everything they have done for your family…You will obviously have to have some on going contact with the school for transfering records and such…but the point is . my suggestion, be as loving and kind as you are capable…I will add your family to my in prayer to my next Rosary…PAX
 
awsiukiewicz said:
Just change Parishes/schools…sounds simple enough…I don’t mean to minimize what you are feeling…I believe everything you have stated…take you money elsewhere…By the way…my four children (the last of which is about to enter 10th grade) all went to our Parish school., we too were active in the Parish, my children served Mass…and the list goes on…so I know it will not be easy to have your children move…but at the risk of sounding profound…chidlren are remarkably resilient…I would be extremely kind and loving towards the school staff…and thank them for everything they have done for your family…You will obviously have to have some on going contact with the school for transfering records and such…but the point is . my suggestion, be as loving and kind as you are capable…I will add your family to my in prayer to my next Rosary…PAX
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Changing schools when a child has an expulsion for a knife and threats to life or welfare might not be as easy as that. The OP ought to find out what is going on before trying to move on, lest she either unknowingly leave an erroneous record in her family’s wake or else (let us hope not, but it is possible) unknowingly move a problem that needs to be dealt with, instead. Their reputation may go before them to the next parish, so before they leave they had better find out exactly what kind of reputation that is.
 
Does your school have a handbook or disciplinary code that they publish? It seems like the first question in terms of the expulsion is whether you have any rights in terms of the process, right to appeal, etc.

I don’t know what to suggest in terms of altar serving. Servers serve at the pleasure of the pastor. He may be acting wrongly, but it is up to him who he wants to serve.

The next question is whether you want to continue being part of the parish given the situation. Normally I would say you should try to talk with the pastor in order to work things out, but that doesn’t sound like it will be possible.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
Does your school have a handbook or disciplinary code that they publish? It seems like the first question in terms of the expulsion is whether you have any rights in terms of the process, right to appeal, etc.

I don’t know what to suggest in terms of altar serving. Servers serve at the pleasure of the pastor. He may be acting wrongly, but it is up to him who he wants to serve.

The next question is whether you want to continue being part of the parish given the situation. Normally I would say you should try to talk with the pastor in order to work things out, but that doesn’t sound like it will be possible.
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It is one thing to go to the vicar of clergy and to say you don’t like the reason your pastor has for doing something. You may not get very far with that. It is something else to go to him and say that kids are getting kicked out right and left and no one will even meet you to tell you why. That is another thing altogether, and something the vicar of clergy would want to know. Pastors are not allowed to act like absolute dictators any more; they have to show a bit more pastoral sensitivity than that. Maybe the pastor is very busy, but your wife, the mother of eight, doesn’t exactly sit on her hands all day, either. You have your own domestic church to run, and you can’t do it in the dark.
 
In addition to everything already suggested, I would not hesitate to bring all the kids in to their general practitioner AND to the county mental health professional for evals. I say this because in my experience, once anyone is in a vindictive mode, public school principal or Catholic school administrator, things can go from bad to worse. If you push back, they may push back, and calling the police or child protective services is high on the list of ways to push back against a “noisy” troublemaker parent. Best to have those reports done now and at the ready.

Besides, there may be something up you aren’t aware of and wouldn’t you want to know?

So sorry you are going through this. I’m sure it must be uncomfortable to be attending Mass at this parish. If you are able to quietly switch to another parish for a while, it would not be a crime.
 
I think what EasterJoy posted is all very true. You really cannot walk away from something like that. It also seems to me quite ridiculous to start expelling children and removing their siblings from their spots as alter servers, all with very little explanation and chance to contest the matter.

The impact on your family’s reputation alone is worth fighting this to some degree. I am terrible about dealing with people tactfully, so I can’t really advise you there, but I don’t think you should walk away from it.

If you are dealing with people who are irrationally opposed to knives and guns in all contexts, then you have a huge problem. You are not going to find common ground with them. Even if this is just a little Swiss Army knife with a two inch blade. But you might be able to challenge them on the grounds of expelling your child based upon the hearsay of a small child.

Definitely take your daughter to a child psychologist to have an evaluation on hand when you speak with these people. If it goes up the chain where their evidence is the hearsay of a six year old child and you have the statement of the psychologist to back you up, then you will have a significant advantage.
 
hwinston said:
My wife also received a call from the Parish Office, Fr. John would not meet with her and would not speak with her about the matter. Both of us were perplexed by this but what happened next is almost infuriating to me. My wife was notified by the schedule coordinator that both of my boys - a 10th grader and my recently graduated 8th grader - were removed from the altar serving calendar, by direction of the parish priest.
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I’m sorry to hear you seem to be swimming in surprises and no one has offered to meet with you.

First, please do not refer to the pastor as vindictive, as you have not heard anything personally from him. Hopefully, there is a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication.

I would ask Father after Mass if he can meet with you and your wife and make an appointment with him.

After meeting with Father if you are still confused, or if he chooses not to meet with you, please make an appointment with the Superintendent of Catholic Schools for your diocese about your daughter. I don’t know which office at the diocese you should contact about the sudden and unexplained reason for your sons being removed as altar servers.
 
sojo said:
In addition to everything already suggested, I would not hesitate to bring all the kids in to their general practitioner AND to the county mental health professional for evals. I say this because in my experience, once anyone is in a vindictive mode, public school principal or Catholic school administrator, things can go from bad to worse. If you push back, they may push back, and calling the police or child protective services is high on the list of ways to push back against a “noisy” troublemaker parent. Best to have those reports done now and at the ready.

Besides, there may be something up you aren’t aware of and wouldn’t you want to know?

So sorry you are going through this. I’m sure it must be uncomfortable to be attending Mass at this parish. If you are able to quietly switch to another parish for a while, it would not be a crime.
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I second this. I, too, am the mama of 8. As you are well aware, we parents of more than 3 have C-R-A-Z-Y tattooed across our foreheads in the eyes if many (if not most) people in society nowadays…even in the Catholic school system. All too often “professionals” try to find any reason at all to investigate what occurs behind our closed doors. I honestly believe your daughter was railroaded, and now your entire family is being deemed unworthy. I have never had to deal with this personally, but I have seen it many times in parishes with other families. On a smaller scale I did become the parent/family to avoid in one of my old neighborhoods because of an incident when my then 9 year old got in a fight on the playground. Suddenly I found myself as the mana if 6 (at the time) who couldn’t control her kids and had no idea what was going on with any if them. In actuality, my son was defending his autistic brother from bullies–teenage bullies–but never mind that. He beat the kid up for no reason…
 
  1. Call the department of schools at the diocese. In our diocese there is a mediation process and personnel to help you through the process. There is probably something similar in other diocese.
  2. Call the Vicar for priests. As mentioned before, calling your priest “vindictive” might come off as name calling. Simply tell the vicar’s office that you have been requesting, unsuccessfully, a meeting with your pastor. You pastor cannot simply refuse to meet with you. He is your pastor and responsible for and to you.
It’s important to get neutral third parties involved.
 
I think you should go talk to the pastor before you make assumptions that he is being vindictive. You do not know that.
 
Wow I’m so sorry.
They should never have handled it that way.
I’d expect that from public school but not from a priest.
Regardless even if they believed they were acting in a way to protect other children,to not consider your feelings and refuse to meet with you is just plain wrong and awful.
I hope you can use this horrible situation for good somehow.
God Bless
 
awsiukiewicz said:
Just change Parishes/schools…sounds simple enough…I don’t mean to minimize what you are feeling…I believe everything you have stated…take you money elsewhere…By the way…my four children (the last of which is about to enter 10th grade) all went to our Parish school., we too were active in the Parish, my children served Mass…and the list goes on…so I know it will not be easy to have your children move…but at the risk of sounding profound…chidlren are remarkably resilient…I would be extremely kind and loving towards the school staff…and thank them for everything they have done for your family…You will obviously have to have some on going contact with the school for transfering records and such…but the point is . my suggestion, be as loving and kind as you are capable…I will add your family to my in prayer to my next Rosary…PAX
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But if people just “let things go” how will the world change?
Don’t we have a responsibility to help others avoid the same situation
 
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