Need help lighting the fire in Confirmandi

[puzzleannie]

Does you diocese direct that you, only you, conduct the interview? .

the pastor or the person he delegates. that would be me. catechists would have to take time out of class to do the interviews, so I would have to cover their classes, which does not make sense. They do their own evaluations and interviews, sometimes individually, sometimes in small groups, so before now we have identified kids who need extra help, more discernment, have more issues etc., and hopefully have done what we can to help them. In fact it is precisely this group that is most frustrating because there is very little parental involvement there. We have 2 deacons and 2 sisters who have made it abundantly clear they have no intention of helping at all with this or any other youth program.

this is just a side issue. the real question is very well stated by OP. How can the CCD/confirmation program substitute for the parents, and make up for what the kids are not getting from the parents?

 

[az_4_faith]

Give them the Sacrament and let them get it from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Franciscan]

QUOTE= 8. Ask again at the end, if they are willing to freely chose for themselves Confirmation. If all the above is OK - then tell the Bishop that they have complied and are ready.
I like this no nonsense approach. But this # 8 reminds me of the debate over what Confirmation is about.

It’s not those receiving who “confirm” their belief in the Church, the Sacraments. Instaed in Confirmation they receive the necessary graces to make this happen. Their conviction grows out of the sacrament it’s not a prerequisite to receive it. Otherwise why is infant Confirmation valid.

Also, the reason why their is a period of preparation is to catechize those kids who parents don’t teach. To rapair the 40 year gap in wishy washy catechesis

While the parents are the primary educators in the faith the Church also has the command -“Go forth and (teach) all nations etc.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

If they don’t bother to take seriously their obligation in preparing for the Sacrament, then what confidence is there that they intend to take seriously their obligations after the Sacrament?

*Ask if they are willing to practice the faith *

They can easily show their willingness by participating in the preparation for the Sacrament. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Franciscan]

If they don’t bother to take seriously their obligation in preparing for the Sacrament, then **what confidence is there that they intend to take seriously their obligations after the Sacrament? **
They can easily show their willingness by participating in the preparation for the Sacrament. Actions speak louder than words.

Ex Opere Operato

Ex opere operato is a Latin theological expression meaning literally “from the work having worked” and with the specific meaning “by the very fact of the action’s being performed” (i.e. “because the work worked”). It refers to the idea that the sacraments really work—that is, they actually confer grace when the sacramental sign is validly effected, not as the result of the good standing of the celebrant, or activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and promise of God.

 

[az_4_faith]

RE: Franciscan’s Ex Opere Operato

Exactly.

No one is going to the candidates to force their participation in the Sacrament.

If they’re coming to the Church to ask for Confirmation, we must trust that somehow they are being inspired to do so (even if it’s their parent’s orders).

We’ve put entirely too many conditions on the Sacrament, acting so typically like human beings who feel the need to control the circumstances beyond what is needed.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Ex Opere Operato

Ex opere operato is a Latin theological expression meaning literally “from the work having worked” and with the specific meaning “by the very fact of the action’s being performed” (i.e. “because the work worked”). It refers to the idea that the sacraments really work—that is, they actually confer grace when the sacramental sign is validly effected, not as the result of the good standing of the celebrant, or activity on the part of the recipient, but by the power and promise of God.

I’m quite aware of the theology of ex opere operato. However, I don’t see how this relates to why one ought to confer the sacrament upon those who have not completed the prescribed preparation for it.

For example, the same could be said of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Should we therefore proceed with the Sacrament of Holy Orders without preparatory catechesis simply because the sacrament itself confers grace ex opere operato?

Should we likewise defer catechesis of our seminarians and simply “let them get it from the Holy Spirit?”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

John Paul II:

…there must be hope that there will be a thorough preparation for this sacrament [of Confirmation], which will allow those who receive it to renew their baptismal promises with full awareness of the gifts they are receiving and the obligations they are assuming. Without a long and serious preparation, they run the risk of reducing the sacrament to a mere formality or external ritual, or even losing sight of the essential sacramental aspect by insisting exclusively on the moral commitment involved.

[John Paul II, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920401en.html”]General Audience, April 1, 1992

]

 

[az_4_faith]

I’m quite aware of the theology of ex opere operato. However, I don’t see how this relates to why one ought to confer the sacrament upon those who have not completed the prescribed preparation for it.

For example, the same could be said of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Should we therefore proceed with the Sacrament of Holy Orders without preparatory catechesis simply because the sacrament itself confers grace ex opere operato?

No one is saying that preparation isn’t a part of receiving the Sacraments, and obviously there are varying degrees that pertain to the complexity of each, (Holy Orders being a perfect example, and Matrimony prep being another).

But if you look at the Sacraments, there was a time that simply being a practicing Catholic allowed one to have one’s baby baptized without jumping through any hoops. Children have always done a degree of preparation for Holy Communion and Confession, at one time simply answering questions from the priest or pastor when the priest and the parents felt the children had come of age and were ready.

It’s been in the past few decades that the various Diocese have gone haywire in adding more and more to the preparation methods and asking that Catholics jump through too many hoops. We have way too many baptized Catholics who are going through life without the Gift of the Holy Spirit because they were asked to make a life-decision when their hormones (and rebellious ones, at that) were running amok. And their parents are at a loss, cause the kids go away to college or life and are bombarded by all kinds of worldly forces pulling them farther and farther away from the faith. I’d much rather give them the Holy Spirit and let Him do the work than turn them away to take on the world by themselves.

Who knows, some of the young men may even feel a nudge to the Sacrament of Holy Orders afterwards?

I just hope no one invents a preparation program for Anointing of the Sick.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

No one is saying that preparation isn’t a part of receiving the Sacraments…

Then I recommend we allow the bishop to decide what preparation is needed, as it is his responsibility to do so. And if the faithful don’t feel an obligation of obedience to the bishop in actually participating in the prescribed preparation, then I’d argue that they are not practicing Catholicism faithfully, and are most in need of additional catechesis.

…various Diocese have gone haywire in adding more and more to the preparation methods…

What you call “gone haywire” is in the mind of the bishops, those ordained to decide such matters, this…

"… a thorough preparation for this sacrament [of Confirmation], which will allow those who receive it to renew their baptismal promises with full awareness of the gifts they are receiving and the obligations they are assuming…a long and serious preparation"

[John Paul II, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920401en.html”]General Audience, April 1, 1992]

 

[johnnykins]

No one is saying that preparation isn’t a part of receiving the Sacraments, and obviously there are varying degrees that pertain to the complexity of each, (Holy Orders being a perfect example, and Matrimony prep being another).

But if you look at the Sacraments, there was a time that simply being a practicing Catholic allowed one to have one’s baby baptized without jumping through any hoops. Children have always done a degree of preparation for Holy Communion and Confession, at one time simply answering questions from the priest or pastor when the priest and the parents felt the children had come of age and were ready.

It’s been in the past few decades that the various Diocese have gone haywire in adding more and more to the preparation methods and asking that Catholics jump through too many hoops. We have way too many baptized Catholics who are going through life without the Gift of the Holy Spirit because they were asked to make a life-decision when their hormones (and rebellious ones, at that) were running amok. And their parents are at a loss, cause the kids go away to college or life and are bombarded by all kinds of worldly forces pulling them farther and farther away from the faith. I’d much rather give them the Holy Spirit and let Him do the work than turn them away to take on the world by themselves.

Who knows, some of the young men may even feel a nudge to the Sacrament of Holy Orders afterwards?

I just hope no one invents a preparation program for Anointing of the Sick.

Actually preparation is not part of the sacrament, per se. One can be ordained without any “preparation.” Likewise for marriage. Preparation for certain sacraments is based on prudence - Priests should be well versed in theology and canon law as well as the rubrics, etc. It’s prudent - but not an integral part of the sacrament. Clearly with the Eastern Catholics confirming infants, preparation on the part of the infant is, shall we say, minimal. Note, too, the Eastern Catholics give communion to infants as well. No training there, either.

The rules on a 6 month wait for marriage and pre-cana training are, again, prudential in nature and no part of the sacrament itself.

Somewhere along the line we’ve lost our understanding of the sacraments if we think we need training for them.

 

[johnnykins]

Then I recommend we allow the bishop to decide what preparation is needed, as it is his responsibility to do so. And if the faithful don’t feel an obligation of obedience to the bishop, then I’d argue that they are not practicing Catholicism faithfully, and are most in need of additional catechesis.

What you call “gone haywire” is in the mind of the bishops, those ordained to decide such matters, this…

"… a thorough preparation for this sacrament [of Confirmation], which will allow those who receive it to renew their baptismal promises with full awareness of the gifts they are receiving and the obligations they are assuming…a long and serious preparation"

[John Paul II, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920401en.html”]General Audience, April 1, 1992

]
Clearly you are right - on one level. It is the Bishop’s obligation and duty to decide such issues. Unfortunately, as we have seen recently with so many other things, many Bishops have the prudence of a first class bozo in way too many cases. Note, since it is prudential it is perfectly licit to disagree with the decision. My guess is that the “journal” requirement is to prove Mass attendance more than anything else. I’ll wager that actual written documentation has its limits and exceptions, too. If strictly required, then I do believe you’ve got a Bishop making a bozo decision. However, it is not licit to ignore his decision. But I’d criticize it with some tenancity. Imagine keeping a journal being deemed something other than an educational gimmick to mimick "… a thorough preparation for this sacrament [of Confirmation], which will allow those who receive it to renew their baptismal promises with full awareness of the gifts they are receiving and the obligations they are assuming…a long and serious preparation"

 

[itsjustdave1988]

It’s unbelievable that Catholics here are advocating for less catechesis! Astonishing!!

See here… ST. Pius X, Acerbo nimis

 

[pumpkinbeast]

It’s s tough line to walk… some parents are making the kids come to the classes, some don’t care, some are willing to go no matter what… do you just give the sacrament reguardless, and let the seed be planted?

Wait a second…

Kids? This sacrament is for ADULTS! No one should be forced into it! Would you force an adult to go through marriage, or holy orders? Those are also sacraments that require preparation. If the corfirmandee wants to be confirmed, they will be willing to go through the proper preparation for it. When picking the preparation activities, however, the fact that you will be preparing youth who will become adults in the church should be remembered… it’s tough if your bishop has told you to make sure the confirmandi complete these projects… the sacrament of confirmation needs help just about everywhere.
Pray for a change!

 

[johnnykins]

It’s unbelievable that Catholics here are advocating for less catechesis! Astonishing!!

See here… ST. Pius X, Acerbo nimis

No. I, for one, am advocating for real catechesis. Not educational gimmickry. Part of that requires that those involved understand the sacraments themselves. The lack of such understanding can, in part, be ascribed as another fruit of the Springtime of VII.

 

[az_4_faith]

It’s s tough line to walk… some parents are making the kids come to the classes, some don’t care, some are willing to go no matter what… do you just give the sacrament reguardless, and let the seed be planted?

Wait a second…

Kids? This sacrament is for ADULTS! No one should be forced into it! Would you force an adult to go through marriage, or holy orders? Those are also sacraments that require preparation. If the corfirmandee wants to be confirmed, they will be willing to go through the proper preparation for it. When picking the preparation activities, however, the fact that you will be preparing youth who will become adults in the church should be remembered… it’s tough if your bishop has told you to make sure the confirmandi complete these projects… the sacrament of confirmation needs help just about everywhere.
Pray for a change!

Please read the following pronouncement from Bishop Thomas Olmsted of the Diocese of Phoenix.

The Bishop eloquently explains why he moved the age of Confirmation from the teen years to third grade, to be conferred in union with Holy Communion.

He gives a history of the sacrament and his reasons for the change. For the most part, it has been well received by the faithful in Phoenix.

You’ll find that Confirmation as we know it has not always been conferred at the adolescent and young adult age.

And yes, preparation is still required, but not on the scale that was required in the teen years.

diocesephoenix.org/catecheticalministry/Sacraments/Pastoral-conf-eng.pdf

 

[johnnykins]

an interview such as you describe is a requirement for Confirmation (and for RCIA by the way) in this diocese. Since the pastor has neither the time nor the inclination to do this, that means I have from after Christmas when class resumes to end of Lent to do these interviews 60-75 youth, 14-25 adults, myself. How much time do you think I will be giving to each candidate?

I don’t know. How much do you think the sacrament is worth? How much are they worth? How much is their eternal salvation worth?

It is the Pastor’s role as representative of the Bishop to do these things. Presumably you have agreed to assist. Is there no one else to help in your parish? If it’s too time consuming for you to do properly, perhaps you should consider telling the priest so. I do not believe being anyone’s doormat, including a priest’s, is required of any Catholic. Already the strain on you shows in a public forum such as this.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I don’t have a “journaling” requirement in my diocese.

My diocese requirements are provided in the link below, and seem clear and prudent to me.

diocs.org/TCE/pdf/THE_CELEBRATION_OF_CONFIRMATION.pdf

Canon law prescribes, “Pastors of souls and other members of the Christian faithful, according to their respective ecclesiastical function, have the duty to take care that those who seek the sacraments are prepared to receive them by proper evangelization and catechetical instruction, attentive to the norms issued by competent authority.” (canon 843, §2)

When pastors don’t do their jobs…people complain. When pastors do their job…people complain. Seems the only thing we can be sure of is that people will complain.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

No. I, for one, am advocating for real catechesis. Not educational gimmickry. Part of that requires that those involved understand the sacraments themselves. The lack of such understanding can, in part, be ascribed as another fruit of the Springtime of VII.

LOL! Yes, I’m sure St. Pius X in Acerbo nimis was speaking of the post Vatican II crisis.

 

[palmas85]

an interview such as you describe is a requirement for Confirmation (and for RCIA by the way) in this diocese. Since the pastor has neither the time nor the inclination to do this, that means I have from after Christmas when class resumes to end of Lent to do these interviews 60-75 youth, 14-25 adults, myself. How much time do you think I will be giving to each candidate?

My first question would be why the Pastor does not have the inclination to do this very important thing. Time constraints I can understand, but not wanting to, that sounds just a tad strange. As far as you, I think you should spend enough time with each person you interview to get a total picture. If you cannot give them that, in this very important process, then maybe the job really isn’t for you. Or you may have to set a limit on the number of people you can take.

But to not have as clear a picture of each person in this endeavor, seems to me to be shortchanging them for the sake of the program. The program exists to serve them, not the other way around.

I really don’t understand the Pastors actions in this at all.