Need help to answer OSAS

[Pax]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

Your friend is another example of proponents of the teaching of OSAS heavily depending on Jesus statement that “…I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” Not surprisingly, this verse does not add up to what those that teach OSAS would like it to.

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

I hope this helps.

 

[Louemma]

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

The whole point is if someone is truly saved they are not going to leave.

1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him

You are sealed by the Holy Spirit and true salvation can not be lost.If that were the case then Jesus dying on the cross was for nothing and to lose salvation,What can it be obtained again?What to crucify Jesus again for the sin in you that he has already paid in full?
True salvation can not be lost because true salvation has already been bought at a price,a price you and I could never pay so then who paid this price?Jesus and that is who holds our salvation and to ensure this we are gave the Holy Spirit as a deposit,a down payment it you will,so we then understand we no longer own our self but we belong to the Father.

The Holy Spirit is like a seal or imprint.
A seal demonstrates ownership. We are owned by God and so, He has a vested interest in our well-being. The Holy Spirit seals us, and there is no force in the universe that can break that seal. He will see us safely and securely to our final rendezvous with the Father on the day of redemption. We are protected, we are secure, because of the indwelling of God’s Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).

The Holy Spirit is like a pledge or earnest money.
He is the pledge, the down payment of our inheritance (2 Corinthians 1:22). The presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer’s heart is God’s guarantee that he will receive all the promised blessings of salvation, including those yet future. In human affairs, once a down payment has been made, the purchaser is pledged to go through with the transaction. The deal is closed. The presence of the Spirit is a sure guarantee that God will never fail in any of His promises connected with our salvation.

So those who have true salvation are not going to leave God,who could become spiritually born of the Spirit and then turn and leave?It can not be done because they are born of God and God lives in them and has created in them a new heart.It simply can not happen,a true child of God to lose their eternal life once they have been born again of the spirit by the Spirit of God.Born again of the spirit by the Spirit,is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is the same Spirit that is promised to all of God’s children.This same Spirit that raised Christ lives in the heart of the one who has been born of the spirit by the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[JRKH]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

My response would be - that’s fine. God, and Jesus (who is speaking) know who the saved are. But do we? How does your friend know that He is saved? How does he know he will always remain faithful to God and not at some future date reject his faith?

The world is full of people who at one time believed in God, and now do not; People who accepted Christ but now do not. How does one account for these sinners?

The common response is that these people were not “truly saved” in the first place. If they were “Truly saved” they would not/cannot lose their faith.

To which you can point out that - Then we, from out vantage point in space/time cannot know who is truly saved for we cannot see into the future, nor can we see into the hearts of those professing faith to determine whether that faith will weather the tirals that God has set for it.

So - While OSAS might be fine from God’s viewpoint (outside space and time) it falls falt from our viewpoint. The discussion becomes an academic one of “redestination” and really has not practical application to our faith walk.

What is worse it sets up a dangerous mindset in the Christian that says, No matter what I do I’m going to heaven" - “'cause I’m [usaved”. This mindset can cause the Christian to fall into sins of pride and presumption.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by HereticalTheist
Hypothetical question for you: suppose you have a person who intellectually desire Heaven, and genuinely wants to please God, who attends Mass when possible, goes to confession during her earthly life and takes the Blessed Sacrament as often as physically possible. Suppose that this person, through some form of akrasia (weakness of the will), occasionally slips up and commits a mortal sin. Have they removed themselves from the Hand of the Lord? and what **if they die before forming the intention to go to confession **

And this is an important qualifier. If the person has repented and intended to get to confession then the mortal punishment is mitigated. If, as is stated in the hypothetical, they die before “forming the intention to go to confession”, that is to say, before repentance, then the mortal punishment stands, for that is where they have placed themselves, not by God’s hand but by their own.

The thing is that people don’t seem to understand is that one cannot really commit a truly “Mortal Sin” without first rejecting God and God’s authority over us. That then is what makes a sin truly “Mortal”. We may not recognize that we are rejecting God, but it is a rejection none the less when we say, in effect, “I will not Serve”, and do some evil that we know full well is evil.

No man can serve two masters. Jesus says so!! So we cannot serve both God (good) desires, AND evil (mortal) desires.

Peace
James

 

[steve_b]

AS IF JUDAS WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE TO FULLFILL GOD"S PLAN,also Christ already knew and understood the part that Judas was to play,Satan was allowed to indwell Judas,because it was God’s plan and Judas still had a hold on him from the world and that my friend was the Love of Money.Just because Judas walked with Christ did not mean he was still not walking with the world because he was.

Yes I agree with you there are those who say they are saved and may even live as a child of God.These folks often hold one hand on the world and hold to God with the other hand.Letting go of God,going back to the world in which they never really seperated from.These folks were never truly saved.Some believe salvation is earned and taking up their cross to follow Jesus becomes a burden when they no longer can walk in their own ways of the world.

[snip] for space

The Wise Man and The Foolish Man

Matthew 7:24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

[snip] for space

The Good Shepherd

John 10: 1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just

[snip] for space

So those who think they have lost their salvation never had salvation because Jesus is the one who holds our salvation,not us and if we don’t hold our salvation then how could we lose it?

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

So we know that we can’t lose something when we are not the ones who hold our eternal life,our salvation but now it is up to those who don’t have salvation to seek Jesus and the one true way of receiving Salvation(True Salvation!)

Re: Judas, Judas made his own choices. God knew how Judas would decide, but He didn’t make Judas do what he did.

What I’m noticing is, the passages you slect to support OSAS, are summary statements based on conditions. And you’re not recognizing the conditions.

Salvation is conditional on following i.e. doing, i.e. obeying everything commanded by Jesus…

• THOSE who don’t just hear but follow His commands are His sheep. It’s about obedience to the end, to what Jesus has taught and established. It’s about maintaining and living out till the end of one’s life, the faith once and for all given to the saints. If one doesn’t do that till the end, they haven’t met the condition
• THOSE who meet the conditions doing it HIS way not ours, are the ones Jesus gives eternal life to.

Here’s how OSAS can make sense.

Once one has been judged by Jesus at the end of life, that decision is final. If one is admitted to heaven, THEN you have OSAS. No one can snatch you from His hands.

 

[Louemma]

Re: Judas, Judas made his own choices. God knew how Judas would decide, but He didn’t make Judas do what he did.
This is true Judas did make his own choices.Also we know that God did not make Judas do anything against his will.However we also that Jesus hand picked his disciples,Judas being one of them.Do we believe Jesus made a mistake in this decision of picking Judas?Or do we believe that God searches the heart and knew what was in the heart of Judas?I believe it is completely safe to assume Judas was picked to carry out the plan of God.We can see the evil in Judas when he complained about the woman with the expensive perfume…

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus
Matthew 26:14Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
Does This Sound Like A man Who Loved Jesus Or Money?Does this sound like Judas was ever saved?Judas was wicked from the beginning,never having salvation,put in place because Jesus chose him and God knew what was in his heart.Just because he walked with Jesus and particapated in the Last supper did not mean theses works earned him eternal life.Judas never had it and he was put in place by God to finish out the plan set forth by God

What I’m noticing is, the passages you slect to support OSAS, are summary statements based on conditions. And you’re not recognizing the conditions.

Salvation is conditional on following i.e. doing, i.e. obeying everything commanded by Jesus…

• THOSE who don’t just hear but follow His commands are His sheep. It’s about obedience to the end, to what Jesus has taught and established. It’s about maintaining and living out till the end of one’s life, the faith once and for all given to the saints. If one doesn’t do that till the end, they haven’t met the condition
• THOSE who meet the conditions doing it HIS way not ours, are the ones Jesus gives eternal life to.

Here’s how OSAS can make sense.

Receiving Salvation is Simple…

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior is the only “step” to salvation. The message of the Bible is abundantly clear. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). Because of our sin, we deserve to be eternally separated from God (Romans 6:23). Because of His love for us (John 3:16), God took on human form and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). God promises forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven to all who receive, by grace through faith, Jesus Christ as Savior (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 16:31).

Salvation is not about certain steps we must follow to earn salvation. Yes, Christians should be baptized. Yes, Christians should publicly confess Christ as Savior. Yes, Christians should turn from sin. Yes, Christians should commit their lives to obeying God. However, these are not steps to salvation. They are results of salvation. Because of our sin, we cannot in any sense earn salvation. We could follow 1000 steps, and it would not be enough. That is why Jesus had to die in our place. We are absolutely incapable of paying our sin debt to God or cleansing ourselves from sin. Only God could accomplish our salvation, and so He did. God Himself completed the “steps” and thereby offers salvation to anyone who will receive it from Him.

Salvation and forgiveness of sins is not about following steps. It is about receiving Christ as Savior and recognizing that He has done all of the work for us. God requires one step of us—receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and fully trusting in Him alone as the way of salvation. That is what distinguishes the Christian faith from all other world religions, each of which has a list of steps that must be followed in order for salvation to be received. The Christian faith recognizes that God has already completed the steps and simply calls on us to receive Him in faith.
Very Sad when there are those who do not believe they have eternal life until they are admitted into heaven and then will they be like doubting Thomas who believed because he saw?
John 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Once one has been judged by Jesus at the end of life, that decision is final. If one is admitted to heaven, THEN you have OSAS. No one can snatch you from His hands.

 

[Louemma]

PART 1

Question: “If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?”

Answer: The reason the Bible warns us so strongly against apostasy is that true conversion is measured by visible fruit. When John the Baptist was baptizing people in the Jordan River, he warned those who thought they were righteous to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:7). Jesus warned those who were listening to Him while He was giving the Sermon on the Mount that every tree can be known by its fruit (Matthew 7:16) and that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 7:19).

The purpose behind these warnings is to counter what some people would call “easy-believism.” In other words, following Jesus is more than saying you are a Christian. Anyone can claim Christ as Savior, but those who are truly saved will bear visible fruit. Now, one may ask the question, “What is meant by fruit?” The clearest example of Christian fruit can be found in Galatians 5:22-23 where Paul describes the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There are other types of Christian fruit (such as praise, winning souls for Christ), but this list provides us with a good summary of Christian attitudes. True believers will manifest these attitudes in their lives to an increasing degree as they progress in their Christian walk (2 Peter 1:5-8).

It is these true, fruit-bearing disciples who have the guarantee of eternal security, and they will persevere to the end. There are many Scriptures that bear this out. Romans 8:29-30 outlines the “golden chain” of salvation by pointing out that those who were foreknown by God were predestined, called, justified, and glorified—there is no loss along the way. Philippians 1:6 tells us that the work God began in us, He will also finish. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that God has sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance until we possess it. John 10:29 affirms that no one is able to take God’s sheep out of His hand. There are many other Scriptures that say the same thing—true believers are eternally secure in their salvation.

The passages warning against apostasy serve two primary purposes. First, they exhort true believers to make sure of their “calling and election.” Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith. If true believers are fruit-bearing followers of Jesus Christ, then we should be able to see the evidence of salvation. Christians bear fruit in varying degrees based on their level of obedience and their spiritual gifts, but all Christians bear fruit; and we should see the evidence of that upon self-examination.

 

[Louemma]

PART 2

There will be periods in a Christian’s life where there is no visible fruit. These would be times of sin and disobedience. What happens during these times of prolonged disobedience is that God removes from us the assurance of our salvation. That is why David prayed in Psalm 51 to restore to him the “joy of salvation” (Psalm 51:12). We lose the joy of our salvation when we live in sin. That is why the Bible tells us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves” (2 Corinthians 13:5). When a true Christian examines himself and sees no recent fruitfulness, it should lead to serious repentance and turning to God.

The second reason for the passages on apostasy is to point out apostates so that we may recognize them. An apostate is someone who abandons his religious faith. It is clear from the Bible that apostates are people who made professions of faith in Jesus Christ, but never genuinely received Him as Savior. Matthew 13:1-9 (the Parable of the Sower) illustrates this point perfectly. In that parable, a sower sows seed, symbolizing the Word of God, onto four types of soil: hard soil, rocky soil, weed-choked soil, and freshly tilled soil. These soils represent four types of responses to the gospel. The first one is pure rejection, whereas the other three represent various levels of acceptance. The rocky soil and the weed-choked soil represent people who initially respond favorably to the gospel, but when persecution comes (rocky soil) or the cares of the world bear down (weed-choked soil), they turn away. Jesus makes it clear with these two types of responses that, although they initially “accepted” the gospel, they never bore any fruit because the seed (of the gospel) never penetrated the soil of the heart. Only the fourth soil, which was “prepared” by God, was able to receive the seed and bear fruit. Again, Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

It may seem unusual for the Bible to warn against apostasy and at the same time say that a true believer will never apostatize. However, this is what Scripture says. First John 2:19 specifically states that those who apostatize are demonstrating that they were not true believers. The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, must be a warning to those who are “in the faith” without ever truly having received it. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves and realize that if they are considering apostatizing, they are not truly saved. Matthew 7:22-23 indicates that those “pretend believers” whom God rejects are rejected not because of having lost faith, but because of the fact that God never knew them.

There are many people who are willing to identify with Jesus. Who doesn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to count the cost of discipleship (Luke 9:23-26, 14:25-33). True believers have counted those costs, whereas apostates have not. Apostates are people who, when they leave the faith, give evidence they were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19). Apostasy is not a loss of salvation, but rather a demonstration that salvation was never truly possessed

This is why there are those who believe people can lose their salvation,when the truth is these folks never had true salvation

This is what Jesus meant when he said…

Matthew 7:15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These people play Christian and when their through they move on and other folks think “Well they are not saved anymore”

 

[OchsFam]

Louemma,

A quick question. Do you believe in mortal and venial sin or do you believe that all sin is the same? If you believe that all sin is the same, to what degree do you believe a sin impacts our relationship with Christ?

God Bless.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma,

A quick question. Do you believe in mortal and venial sin or do you believe that all sin is the same? If you believe that all sin is the same, to what degree do you believe a sin impacts our relationship with Christ?

God Bless.

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.

At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.

Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:21 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”

When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life
Eternal life means eternal,forever.Once someone receives eternal life they can not lose it.

 

[Louemma]

Now I have a question for the ones who believe that salvation can be lost?Does the scriptures not say that God will punish his children if they do not repent of willful sin?
Hebrews 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”

Now suppose we see a brother or sister in this shape and they die.Now these folks have salvation but to some it may seem that they were no longer saved because of willful sin.Dying having their life cut short could be a punishment for unrepentant sin.And then there is Purgatory.If losing salvation was possible then why do you suppose there is purgatory?A cleansing process from WHAT?

 

[OchsFam]

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.

At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.

Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:21 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”

When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life
Eternal life means eternal,forever.Once someone receives eternal life they can not lose it.

I assumed this is what you believed but I did not want to “attack” a straw man.

The next logical question then is, are we sinners? If we repent of our sins when we are 20 years old, are all of our sins forgiven past, present, and future? If all sins are forgiven at repentance, then once one repents, there is no time of darkness where one’s assurance of salvation can be taken away from them. It would not matter if they stole a loaf of bread or committed genocide or denied Christ at the age of 50.

If, however, our future sins are not forgiven then there is no assurance of salvation based on the logical conclusion that we are all sinners and so are all currently in the state you defined as darkness, or prolonged state of sin and disobedience. Since every sin takes us away from God and we are all sinners, there is no other possible conclusion if this is the case.

If there is a magic third option that states our past and present sins being forgiven is based on our future actions, then you are still left with the logical conclusion that there is no assurance of salvation since only one person knows our future actions. This is what I would consider the situation where “one was never truly saved”. This means someone did everything you said would save them and you assured them of salvation but in the future they committed a sin that took them away from Christ and placed them in this state of darkness.

In the end, besides not agreeing with your conclusions on OSAS, I do not believe your conclusion is logical within itself. Maybe you can clear this up for me, but it will have to wait until tomorrow since I am going on a date with my wife tonight, WOOT!

God Bless.

 

[Louemma]

I assumed this is what you believed but I did not want to “attack” a straw man.

The next logical question then is, are we sinners? If we repent of our sins when we are 20 years old, are all of our sins forgiven past, present, and future? If all sins are forgiven at repentance, then once one repents, there is no time of darkness where one’s assurance of salvation can be taken away from them. It would not matter if they stole a loaf of bread or committed genocide or denied Christ at the age of 50.

If, however, our future sins are not forgiven then there is no assurance of salvation based on the logical conclusion that we are all sinners and so are all currently in the state you defined as darkness, or prolonged state of sin and disobedience. Since every sin takes us away from God and we are all sinners, there is no other possible conclusion if this is the case.

If there is a magic third option that states our past and present sins being forgiven is based on our future actions, then you are still left with the logical conclusion that there is no assurance of salvation since only one person knows our future actions. This is what I would consider the situation where “one was never truly saved”. This means someone did everything you said would save them and you assured them of salvation but in the future they committed a sin that took them away from Christ and placed them in this state of darkness.

In the end, besides not agreeing with your conclusions on OSAS, I do not believe your conclusion is logical within itself. Maybe you can clear this up for me, but it will have to wait until tomorrow since I am going on a date with my wife tonight, WOOT!

God Bless.

I am sorry you believe this as to be a straw man argument.It would be hard to call the scriptures a straw man argument.
However I am not saying that once someone is saved this is a free ticket to sin.This is what your post is implying.God forbid someone who professes to be a child of God and live like the devil has a harsh punishment in store.Nor is this true salvation.

To make it very clear that there are those who claim to have salvation but we know by their fruits they don’t or their life style.Say Billy Bob claims to have salvation but he is also a homosexual.According to God’s word does Billy Bob have true salvation?We can look at his lifestyle and say,No.The thing is what if Billy Bob received salvation before he fell into that sin?The question is,Will he lose his salvation or will God punish him on this earth or in Purgatory?Or does he lose salvation?Or did he have true salvation?
Only God can search the heart and only God holds that answer.That is why this topic of OSAS has never been settled.The truth is only the person knows if they are truly saved and only God has the power to keep them saved.Man can only speculate on another’s salvation and whether a person has true salvation.There is scripture that talks about each man examining his own heart…
Lamentations 3:40 Let us examine our ways and test them,
and let us return to the LORD.

 

[Nicea325]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

Your Baptist friend is taking the verses out-of-context…not unusual.

Key word: ETERNAL. When do we receive ETERNAL life? That has nothing to do with our worldly life.

Finally,ask your friend to find a place in scripture where St.Paul teaches Jesus’ guaranteed us salvation? Salvation is a process,not the faulty belief it is a one time event.

Likewise,if one cannot lose their salvation,then why would Jesus continue to intercede for us,if one is already saved?

 

[Louemma]

Your Baptist friend is taking the verses out-of-context…not unusual.

Key word: ETERNAL. When do we receive ETERNAL life? That has nothing to do with our worldly life.

Finally,ask your friend to find a place in scripture where St.Paul teaches Jesus’ guaranteed us salvation? Salvation is a process,not the faulty belief it is a one time event.

Likewise,if one cannot lose their salvation,then why would Jesus continue to intercede for us,if one is already saved?

If I’m the friend I assure you there is no scripture taken out of context.If you don’t think your eternal life has nothing to do with your wordly life then I’m going to assume you don’t understand or either you don’t believe in purgatory?
Jesus continues to intercede for you so that you don’t lose your eternal life.That is the whole point of the cross.

The scripture your looking for that Paul taught about our guaranteed salvation can be found in…
Ephesians 1:13&14 “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession - to the praise of his glory.”

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Greetings Louemma,

I’m curious to know your take on the Lord’s warning about removing the lamp stand from the Church in Ephesus in Revelation 2. He was obviously talking to believers. What do you feel the lamp stand represents and what is the consequence for having the lamp stand removed?

Additionally, you have posted many scriptures that if read by themselves would seem to support OSAS, but what about the rest of scripture? Is it not important to read scripture in context of other scripture? For example, Paul does write on many occasions about being “saved” (past tense). But he also talks about salvation as a process. I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2). Why would one who has attained eternal salvation need to hope for it?

Contrary to your recent post, it certainly appears that OSAS does give a person a “free ticket to sin”. The doctrine assumes, wrongly IMO, that one CANNOT sever their relationship with Christ once they have been saved–even though scripture clearly says there is sin which is mortal. That is one of the many problems with the doctrine. It leaves the believer in a state of presumption, rather than “hopeful confidence”. Furthermore, the OSAS always leaves a loophole for those who “backslide” or “fall away”. What if a person, let’s say a baptist, confessed Christ, completely gave his or her heart to God and lived a very righteous life, but then they lost their faith in Christ because, say, their child was murdered. They no longer chose to believe in Him and subsequently they begin to live their lives as a sinful, unrepentant non-believer. Is that person still saved? Most OSAS believers would say no, BUT he really wasn’t saved in the first place. I’m not talking about the closet sinner as you mentioned, but a person like you, who has professed Christ and is walking the walk, turning away from God because of an event or some sort of disillusionment that occurred after they professed Christ.

 

[steve_b]

Receiving Salvation is Simple…

Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior is the only “step” to salvation.

As long as Faith is in action, it is alive. If it is just a said faith it is dead and won’t save.
L:

The message of the Bible is abundantly clear. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23).

Because of our sin, we deserve to be eternally separated from God (Romans 6:23).

Some sins will do that but not all sins will do that.
L:

Because of His love for us (John 3:16), God took on human form and died in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). God promises forgiveness of sins and eternal life in heaven to all who receive, by grace through faith, Jesus Christ as Savior (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; Acts 16:31).

He promises eternal life if we do/obey His commands. All of them.
L:

Salvation is not about certain steps we must follow to earn salvation.

• Yes, Christians should be baptized.
• Yes, Christians should publicly confess Christ as Savior.
• Yes, Christians should turn from sin.
• Yes, Christians should commit their lives to obeying God.

However, these are not steps to salvation.

L:

They are results of salvation.

They and many other acts, are a result of obedience to the faith given once and for all to the saints. It’s evidence one has faith.
L:

Because of our sin, we cannot in any sense earn salvation.

Why do you associate obedience to faith and the commandments with earn?
L:

We could follow 1000 steps, and it would not be enough. That is why Jesus had to die in our place. We are absolutely incapable of paying our sin debt to God or cleansing ourselves from sin. Only God could accomplish our salvation, and so He did. God Himself completed the “steps” and thereby offers salvation to anyone who will receive it from Him. Salvation and forgiveness of sins is not about following steps. It is about receiving Christ as Savior and recognizing that He has done all of the work for us.

At the last judgement, there seems to be a few steps you’re skipping over. [Mt 25:32…]
L:

God requires one step of us—receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and fully trusting in Him alone as the way of salvation. That is what distinguishes the Christian faith from all other world religions, each of which has a list of steps that must be followed in order for salvation to be received. The Christian faith recognizes that God has already completed the steps and simply calls on us to receive Him in faith.

The synoptic gospels have the Eucharist. John has the bread of life discourse giving the meaning and the supernatural realities of the Eucharist.

Jn 6:
52* The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56* He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58* This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

.

 

[Louemma]

Greetings Louemma,

I’m curious to know your take on the Lord’s warning about removing the lamp stand from the Church in Ephesus in Revelation 2. He was obviously talking to believers. What do you feel the lamp stand represents and what is the consequence for having the lamp stand removed?

Additionally, you have posted many scriptures that if read by themselves would seem to support OSAS, but what about the rest of scripture? Is it not important to read scripture in context of other scripture? For example, Paul does write on many occasions about being “saved” (past tense). But he also talks about salvation as a process. I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2). Why would one who has attained eternal salvation need to hope for it?

Contrary to your recent post, it certainly appears that OSAS does give a person a “free ticket to sin”. The doctrine assumes, wrongly IMO, that one CANNOT sever their relationship with Christ once they have been saved–even though scripture clearly says there is sin which is mortal. That is one of the many problems with the doctrine. It leaves the believer in a state of presumption, rather than “hopeful confidence”. Furthermore, the OSAS always leaves a loophole for those who “backslide” or “fall away”. What if a person, let’s say a baptist, confessed Christ, completely gave his or her heart to God and lived a very righteous life, but then they lost their faith in Christ because, say, their child was murdered. They no longer chose to believe in Him and subsequently they begin to live their lives as a sinful, unrepentant non-believer. Is that person still saved? Most OSAS believers would say no, BUT he really wasn’t saved in the first place. I’m not talking about the closet sinner as you mentioned, but a person like you, who has professed Christ and is walking the walk, turning away from God because of an event or some sort of disillusionment that occurred after they professed Christ.

Interesting that you would use this scenario of the dying child.
There was a woman who loved the Lord and had always tried to live her life for the Lord.Going to church and taking her children,teaching her children about the Lord and trusted in the Lord.
Then the unimaginable,the feared nightmare that all parents fear to become a reality happened.The woman lost her young 19 year old son.Her son that was saved as a child.Her son that said he would become a preacher one day died from a drug overdose.
The woman became angry and decided that God could not be trusted,would not hear prayers from a mother to keep her children safe.The woman decided that IF THERE was a God she wondered how he could be so cruel as to allow her child to die.The woman then tried bargaining,Let me take his place Lord.I will lay down my life if you’ll give him back his life,take me instead Lord.This woman would have done this if that were possible.
That is when the Lord come to her in her grief,in her anger and showed her that there is no greater love then for someone to lay down their life for another and that is what our Lord Jesus done for each and everyone of us so that we can live forever with him in the Father’s kingdom.
What about the son who was saved and died in his sin?Did he lose his salvation?No but the boy could have went through the fires of purgatory but his soul is safe with Jesus.

The lamp stand?

The seven churches described in Revelation 2-3 are seven literal churches at the time that John the apostle was writing Revelation. Though they were literal churches in that time, there is also spiritual significance for churches and believers today. The first purpose is to write to the literal churches and meet their needs at that time. The second purpose is to reveal seven different types of individuals/churches throughout history and instruct them in God’s truth.

A possible third purpose is using the seven churches to represent seven different periods in the history of the Church. The problem with this view is that each of the seven churches describes issues that could fit the Church in any time in its history. So although there may be some truth to the seven churches representing seven eras of the Church, too many people go into far too much speculation in order to determine which church fits which era. Instead, our focus should be on what message God is giving to us through the seven churches.
The lamp stand being removed from the church can not be used effectively as an argument to say one can lose salvation because these were churches that Christ was addressing and the things the church was allowing to go on and Jesus was warning them that if they didn’t clean house he would not dwell among them.

 

[Pax]

The whole point is if someone is truly saved they are not going to leave.

1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him

You are sealed by the Holy Spirit and true salvation can not be lost.
…
…

Louemma in Christ,

I am going to break this down into pieces because it may require several posts to answer. First of all, you did not respond directly to my presentation on John 10:28. Instead, you jumped to 1 Jn 2:18-25 as a rebuttal. Please be advised that John 10 and 1 John 2 are in harmony and you have not refuted John 10, but only created more difficulties for your position by looking at 1 John chapter2.

Neither passage supports OSAS. This latter passage was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

1 John 2:18-25
“Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. **If **what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. **If **they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. The word “if” is a provisional term that is completely incompatible with OSAS.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

…
…

You are sealed by the Holy Spirit and true salvation can not be lost.If that were the case then Jesus dying on the cross was for nothing and to lose salvation,What can it be obtained again?What to crucify Jesus again for the sin in you that he has already paid in full?
True salvation can not be lost because true salvation has already been bought at a price,a price you and I could never pay so then who paid this price?Jesus and that is who holds our salvation and to ensure this we are gave the Holy Spirit as a deposit,a down payment it you will,so we then understand we no longer own our self but we belong to the Father.

Louemma in Christ,

Truly we are saved by Jesus passion, death, and resurrection. Upon that point we completely agree. It is illogical and against scripture, however, to suggest that the loss of salvation is therefore impossible. If I bought you a car and gave it to you as a gift, you could not claim that you earned it. Nevertheless, you could wreck the car and undo the benefit of that gift. Paul summarizes this very point when he says:

1 Tim 1:19-20
By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

These individuals have destroyed that which is a gift. Paul also gives us a pithy statement concerning the gift of salvation and the loss of salvation in Romans 6:23 where he says:

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The latter part of the that statement is what “God does” in providing the gift of eternal life. The first half of the statement is what “we do” that can bring about death[condemnation].
Likewise, Paul says this in Gal 6:7-8:

**Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. ** For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

I hope this helps.