Need help to answer OSAS

[ftblwolf]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

 

[Serafina17]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

The response I use to someone using this verse is: Would God force Himself on someone who rejects Him?
and ‘oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace’ is unbiblical.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

What if a person who has accepted Jesus at some point in their life (they were saved) commits one of these sins? Are they still saved?

So it appears that something is wrong with his interpretation of that verse.

 

[OchsFam]

I think stating that the man of John 10:28-30 cannot be yourself because snatching is not something you can do to yourself. You can jump, you can fall, but you can’t snatch.

Also, you may want to suggest the entire book of Hebrews. Anyone who can read this book and still believe in OSAS is not being reasonable and so cannot be reasoned with. In particular, Hebrews 2:1 says “Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.” Also, Hebrews 3:12 says “Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.”

The context of these are unmistakable. How can one fall away? If it was OSAS, you could not fall away from anything. My guess is that he would say someone who seems to fall away was never saved to begin with. I would challenge him to find this in the context of Hebrews. It isn’t there. There are many references in Hebrews to the audience having received the message and so they would be in the OSAS crowd if that theology was correct. Obviously, it is not correct as they are being warned to not fall away or drift away.

God Bless.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

It’s true, no one can snatch a soul out of Jesus’ hand, BUT a person can voluntarily leave Jesus’ hand via mortal sin. See the difference? When Jesus spoke to the seven Churches in the Book of Revelation, He spoke about the person who perseveres to the end. He even tells the Church in Ephesus that if they do not repent and do the works they did at first, He will come and take their lamp stand from them!! These folks were believers and Jesus was telling them that they had to do something (not just believe in Him) or He would take the Lamp stand. The Lamp Stand is the Holy Spirit. Additionally, 1 John 5:17 speaks about the nature of sin and that some sin is mortal and some is not mortal. Even Paul, on more than one occasion, talks about hoping for salvation and the need to persevere. This is a man who devoted his whole life to Jesus (after conversion), yet he spoke of salvation as something yet to be accomplished.

Here is a site that argues the point from scripture. Believe me, scripture is the only way in which you can debate with a baptist. Remember, supporters of OSAS tend to isolate certain passages to support their view, however, scripture MUST be taken in context with other scripture. With that in mind, OSAS is absolutely unsupportable from a biblical standpoint, IMHO.

 

[HereticalTheist]

It’s true, no one can snatch a soul out of Jesus’ hand, BUT a person can voluntarily leave Jesus’ hand via mortal sin. See the difference? When Jesus spoke to the seven Churches in the Book of Revelation, He spoke about the person who perseveres to the end. He even tells the Church in Ephesus that if they do not repent and do the works they did at first, He will come and take their lamp stand from them!! These folks were believers and Jesus was telling them that they had to do something (not just believe in Him) or He would take the Lamp stand. The Lamp Stand is the Holy Spirit. Additionally, 1 John 5:17 speaks about the nature of sin and that some sin is mortal and some is not mortal. Even Paul, on more than one occasion, talks about hoping for salvation and the need to persevere. This is a man who devoted his whole life to Jesus (after conversion), yet he spoke of salvation as something yet to be accomplished.

Here is a site that argues the point from scripture. Believe me, scripture is the only way in which you can debate with a baptist. Remember, supporters of OSAS tend to isolate certain passages to support their view, however, scripture MUST be taken in context with other scripture. With that in mind, OSAS is absolutely unsupportable from a biblical standpoint, IMHO.

Hypothetical question for you: suppose you have a person who intellectually desire Heaven, and genuinely wants to please God, who attends Mass when possible, goes to confession during her earthly life and takes the Blessed Sacrament as often as physically possible. Suppose that this person, through some form of akrasia (weakness of the will), occasionally slips up and commits a mortal sin. Have they removed themselves from the Hand of the Lord? and what if they die before forming the intention to go to confession (of say a sudden heart attack). Is that just their misfortune?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I think stating that the man of John 10:28-30 cannot be yourself because snatching is not something you can do to yourself.

I agree with this sentiment. The Baptist’s logic is fallacious that “no man” includes himself. For a whole bunch of verses against OSAS, I recommend reading the closing statements by Jimmy Akin in this file.

Here’s a good one in the prophecy of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 18:21-24 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

 

[steve_b]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give** them** eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

It’s a summary statement. The question is, who is Jesus speaking of?

The preview to that summary statement Jesus said

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

See the qualifications Jesus makes to who He is talking about?

Jesus says one must

• believe in Him,
• listen to Him
• follow Him i.e. obey Him

THOSE are His sheep.

If people don’t believe, don’t listen to, don’t follow everything Jesus teaches, are they included in that summary statement?

Jesus established His Church on Peter and the apostles, with Peter as the leader. The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus started. If one wants to believe, listen to, and follow Jesus the way HE set it up, one does that by being Catholic.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

I believe he’s misinterpreting John 10:28-30. “I give them eternal life” refers to when they die and achieve heaven. Not in this life. “Eternal life” means “heaven.” We are not in heaven yet, while we live here on earth. However, when we do get to heaven, we can never lose it. It is permanent. Once we are in heaven, in the Father’s hand, the devil cannot “get us.”

 

[hatsoff]

One of the big problems with OSAS is that the term “saved” is left ambiguous. What does it mean? Is a person saved when he believes? When the Holy Spirit enters his heart? When he is elected by God? When he dies? When he is raised with a new body?

It’s manifestly obvious that people often do lose belief in Christ, so that won’t do. And anything at or after death is useless to us as a benchmark for security. As for the Holy Spirit, how are we to tell when it as at work in a person, and who is to say that it will continue to do so? And how can we determine whether God has elected a person?

When I encounter an OSAS/eternal security advocate, these questions are always on my mind.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Hypothetical question for you: suppose you have a person who intellectually desire Heaven, and genuinely wants to please God, who attends Mass when possible, goes to confession during her earthly life and takes the Blessed Sacrament as often as physically possible. Suppose that this person, through some form of akrasia (weakness of the will), occasionally slips up and commits a mortal sin. Have they removed themselves from the Hand of the Lord? and what if they die before forming the intention to go to confession (of say a sudden heart attack). Is that just their misfortune?

The problem with this hypothetical situation is that mortal sin is not just a moment of weak will. Mortal sin is always an willful act and removes from their state of grace. It is a grave matter committed with full knowledge and full consent. Such a person as you describe would have a well formed conscience and would hopefully repent before a heart attack. But yes, anyone who has committed a mortal sin and does not repent will be damned. This is a misfortune indeed, but a informed choice.

 

[UnworthyApostle]

Well, I used to believe in OSAS, until I saw bible verses like this one:

See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:22

The Word of God was really an eye opener for me. It led me to the Catholic Church.

 

[spockrates]

I think stating that the man of John 10:28-30 cannot be yourself because snatching is not something you can do to yourself. You can jump, you can fall, but you can’t snatch.

Also, you may want to suggest the entire book of Hebrews. Anyone who can read this book and still believe in OSAS is not being reasonable and so cannot be reasoned with. In particular, Hebrews 2:1 says “Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.” Also, Hebrews 3:12 says “Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.”

The context of these are unmistakable. How can one fall away? If it was OSAS, you could not fall away from anything. My guess is that he would say someone who seems to fall away was never saved to begin with. I would challenge him to find this in the context of Hebrews. It isn’t there. There are many references in Hebrews to the audience having received the message and so they would be in the OSAS crowd if that theology was correct. Obviously, it is not correct as they are being warned to not fall away or drift away.

God Bless.

Extremely insightful, OF!

 

[spockrates]

Hey all,

I’ve been having conservations back and forth between a Baptist buddy of mine on the topic of Once Saved, Always Saved. I’ve used verse after verse to show and explain the Catholic standpoint but he’s relying on

John 10:28-30 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

He’s saying that since no man can snatch a saved individual from God’s grace, then no man would include oneself…so oneself can do nothing to fall out of God’s grace…

Any help on a response to this specific verse?? Thanks all!!

Wolf:

Serafina (in post #2) quotes a helpful verse. Have your Baptist friend read it to you and ask him if he knows anyone who calls himself a Christian, and believes he is saved, but regularly practices any of these sins. If he says yes, then ask him how it can be true that he is saved. If he says no (although it is hard to believe he does not know of a Baptist who has not gotten drunk or had sex outside of marriage), then ask him why someone who is saved feels the need to abstain from these sins. You might not change his mind right away, but you are likely to start some interesting and thoughtful conversations.

 

[Louemma]

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

“He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . .” John 3:36

We are NOT saved by WORKS

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.

We don’t receive it by our works — and we don’t keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

“. . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23

“. . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life.” Romans

“(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)” 2 Corinthians 6:2

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3

“Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” 1 Peter 1:23
You become a CHILD OF GOD

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.

“Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . .” 1 John 3:2

“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER.” Romans 8:15
Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father

Just as nothing can “negate” your physical birth, nothing can “negate” your spiritual birth.

“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:29
Jesus will NEVER leave us

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

“. . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee.” Hebrews 13:5

“. . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

“He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:… .” John 3:36

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . .” 1 John 5:13

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . .” John 5:24
Jesus will NOT cast you out

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified.” Hebrews 10:10,14
We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus

“And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . .” 2 Timothy 4:18
We are KEPT by the POWER of God

“Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” 1 Peter 1:5

“Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,” Jude 24
We are saved to the UTTERMOST

“Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . .” Hebrews 7:25
We are SEALED until the day of redemption

What about the “backslider” or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

“If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.” 2 Timothy 2:1

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands “. . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh” — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — “. . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . .”

“. . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . .” 1 John 5:10
Why do people doubt their salvation?

They trust in feelings rather than the word of God.

“He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool:. . .” Proverbs 28:26
They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:3
They trust in tradition or church teachings rather than the word of God.

“Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . .” Mark 7:13
They trust in their own righteousness.

“. . . and all OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as filthy rags;. . .” Isaiah 64:

 

[Louemma]

The most convincing scripture that confirms that we can not lose eternal life…

The Spirit - The Seal, The Deposit And The Guarantee

Ephesians 1:13&14 “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession - to the praise of his glory.”

verses will tell us that He will literally come to enter in on the inside of us.

The Bible says that we have three parts to our beings – body, soul and spirit. Our human spirits are referred to as our innermost being by the Bible. The Holy Spirit will enter into and actually live and dwell in your human spirit.

As a result of the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us in our human spirits, the Bible tells us that our bodies have now become the “temple” of the Holy Spirit since we now carry His actual presence on the inside of us.

Here are 5 very good verses telling us that the Holy Spirit now literally lives on the inside of us and that our physical bodies have now become the actual temple of the Holy Spirit.

•“Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19)

•“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)

•“If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (1 Corinthians 3:17)

•“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Romans 8:9)

•“But if the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11)

 

[steve_b]

The most convincing scripture that confirms that we can not lose eternal life…

The Spirit - The Seal, The Deposit And The Guarantee

Ephesians 1:13&14 “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession - to the praise of his glory.”

Would you agree, This passage presumes that people who really believe not just say “I believe” but believe in EVERYTHING the Lord and his apostles taught AND obey it?

Would you agree Paul is NOT eliminating from this passage all the warnings he makes throughout his writings.
L:

verses will tell us that He will literally come to enter in on the inside of us.

The Bible says that we have three parts to our beings – body, soul and spirit. Our human spirits are referred to as our innermost being by the Bible. The Holy Spirit will enter into and actually live and dwell in your human spirit.

Keep in mind Judas received Our Lord’s body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist at the last supper, just before Satan entered him.
L:

As a result of the Holy Spirit now living on the inside of us in our human spirits, the Bible tells us that our bodies have now become the “temple” of the Holy Spirit since we now carry His actual presence on the inside of us.

Keep in mind right after the apostles received the Eucharist at the last supper, Satan got all the apostles to start an argument among themselves over who is the greatest among THEM. They had the HS in them at that moment. If Satan can do that in front of Jesus to Our Lord’s apostles, what do you think Satan can do to/with the rank and file Christian? Jesus right after this argument at the last supper, among other things He told the apostles, He prayed especially for unity. Look at Paul’s warning to those who divide and cause schism, and won’t maintain unity with Our Lords Church
L:

Here are 5 very good verses telling us that the Holy Spirit now literally lives on the inside of us and that our physical bodies have now become the actual temple of the Holy Spirit.

•“Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19)

•“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)

•“If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (1 Corinthians 3:17)

•“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,*** if*** indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Romans 8:9)

•“But ***if ***the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11)

Don’t overlook the** Ifs.** they are qualifiers. They make the statements conditional. Also, none of these statements over ride the warnings Paul gives throughout his letters. If they did, then Paul wouldn’t have to make any warnings.

 

[JustaServant]

**The Dark Side of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ **
“For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Gen. 3:5 (KJV).

Malcolm Smith (a charismatic Episcopal priest) used to call the words of this verse, “ye shall be as gods”, ‘The Lie’. The idea being that wanting to be ‘like God’ is the foundation of Original Sin. And what could be more ‘being like a god’, than having the knowledge of who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
The ‘doctrine’ of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS), otherwise known as ‘eternal security’ was a teaching I found hard to abandon when I crossed the Tiber. It is an enticing philosophy that attracts people into a web that is hard to get out of. Behind the doctrine, of course is the teaching that you and I can ‘know for sure’ that our destiny is Heaven. Or as fundamentalist preachers love to put it: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ Catholics shrink from such statements as they smack of the sin of presumption.
But this doctrine has a dark side. If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (those who repeated a sinners prayer), than I can also be sure who is going to Hell (those who have not). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell not only plays into the ‘Lie’ (using Malcolm’s language), it also plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
When some of the writings of Mother Teresa was made public, it revealed she had gone through (as St. John of the Cross did) a ‘dark night of the soul’.
Fundamentalists had a gleeful feeding frenzy. I remember one fundamentalist almost giddy with excitement: “See! This proves it! Mother Teresa is in Hell!!”. It is extremely important to fundamentalists that Mother Teresa be in Hell. If Mother Teresa is not burning in Hell, that would make their belief/doctrine false; hence she must be burning in Hell.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind is ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn’t have the “right beliefs.” Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to. Catholics are told (many times with glee) that it is ‘certain’ they are going to Hell.
It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.
The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): “There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell.” Jesus turned that around and said: “There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents.”
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’. Obviously Jesus did not.
“ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
The Lie.

 

[spockrates]

Darth Vader: There is no escape. Don’t make me destroy you.
[pauses]

Darth Vader: Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

Luke: I’ll never join you!

**Darth Vader: **If you only knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.

**Luke: **He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

**Darth Vader: **No. I am your father.

Luke: No. No. That’s not true. That’s impossible!

Darth Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!

Luke: [anguished] No! No!

 

[spockrates]

^

The dark side of Star Wars.

 

[Louemma]

Keep in mind Judas received Our Lord’s body blood soul and divinity in the Eucharist at the last supper, just before Satan entered him.

AS IF JUDAS WAS NOT PUT IN PLACE TO FULLFILL GOD"S PLAN,also Christ already knew and understood the part that Judas was to play,Satan was allowed to indwell Judas,because it was God’s plan and Judas still had a hold on him from the world and that my friend was the Love of Money.Just because Judas walked with Christ did not mean he was still not walking with the world because he was.

Yes I agree with you there are those who say they are saved and may even live as a child of God.These folks often hold one hand on the world and hold to God with the other hand.Letting go of God,going back to the world in which they never really seperated from.These folks were never truly saved.Some believe salvation is earned and taking up their cross to follow Jesus becomes a burden when they no longer can walk in their own ways of the world.These people are like the man who built his house upon the sands and when the storms came blew that house away.These people do not have strong Faith in Christ and are often blown away from the troubles of this world.They fall away,never having obtained true salvation because they tried holding to God with one hand and Satan with the other.So these folks did not lose something they never had to start with.True salvation is like the man who built his house on a Rock and when the storms blew in his house stood strong and I do love using this parable of Jesus’s because he understood that there would be those who would…
"Need Help to Answer OSAS
and the answer is When you have true salvation then you can stand through any storm and not be lost because you are anchored to Christ and like the Good Shepherd he does not lose any that are his.

The Wise Man and The Foolish Man
Matthew 7:24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

The Good Shepherd

John 10: 1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

So those who think they have lost their salvation never had salvation because Jesus is the one who holds our salvation,not us and if we don’t hold our salvation then how could we lose it?

John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

So we know that we can’t lose something when we are not the ones who hold our eternal life,our salvation but now it is up to those who don’t have salvation to seek Jesus and the one true way of receiving Salvation(True Salvation!)