Need help to answer OSAS

[Louemma]

As long as Faith is in action, it is alive. If it is just a said faith it is dead and won’t save.

Faith Saves you,your action can only come after the Faith.Those who have salvation don’t hide it under a bucket,why would they?No they love the Lord and want to please him not to keep salvation but because we love him for what he has done for us.

Some sins will do that but not all sins will do that.

If you are not saved,sin is sin!If your saved there is no sin that can separate you from the Father.Don’t say blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because someone who does there is no hope,so that don’t count here.I’m not sure that sin can be committed today!

He promises eternal life if we do/obey His commands. All of them.

True



They and many other acts, are a result of obedience to the faith given once and for all to the saints. It’s evidence one has faith.

Obedience could be considered a work and this is true we must be obedient but the Protestant would not call this a work.We do this because we want to please the Lord because we love him.

Why do you associate obedience to faith and the commandments with earn?

Faith is not obedience and the commandments are not works.They are commandments for those love the Lord.The Lord freely loves us and how do we think to earn that Love?To earn the eternal life that he has freely offered?

At the last judgement, there seems to be a few steps you’re skipping over. [Mt 25:32…]

There are two judgements
(1) For the children of God-THE BEMA SEAT JUDGEMENT
(2) The Great White Throne Judgement-For the ones who died without eternal life
So NO I am not skipping over Judgements

The synoptic gospels have the Eucharist. John has the bread of life discourse giving the meaning and the supernatural realities of the Eucharist.

Jn 6:
52* The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56* He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58* This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

The Roman Catholic Church believes that the bread and wine of the Holy Eucharist become the actual body and blood of Jesus. They attempt to support their system of thought with passages such as John 6:32-58; Matthew 26:26; Luke 22:17-23; and 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. In 1551 A.D., the Counsel of Trent officially stated: “by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation” (Session XIII, chapter IV; cf. canon II). By sharing in the Eucharistic meal, the Church teaches that Catholics are fulfilling John 6:53: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

I do believe in Communion just not as the same as the Catholic teach.Not to say it’s not as important but the Protestant do it differently and we don’t do this as a work seen as necessary for keeping salvation.We do this because we truly Love to be able to partake of the body of Christ because of what he done on the cross for us and that is a privilege not a work

.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma in Christ,

I am going to break this down into pieces because it may require several posts to answer. First of all, you did not respond directly to my presentation on John 10:28. Instead, you jumped to 1 Jn 2:18-25 as a rebuttal. Please be advised that John 10 and 1 John 2 are in harmony and you have not refuted John 10, but only created more difficulties for your position by looking at 1 John chapter2.

Neither passage supports OSAS. This latter passage was written by John for the express purpose of warning Christian believers about false teachers that have gone out in the spirit of anti-Christ. It simply does not support OSAS. If anything it denies it. Let’s look at the verse in context.

This passage of scripture is telling us the following:

1. The anti-Christ is coming and is already working.
2. These anti-Christs are not to be listened to because they are false teachers.
3. They are recognized as false teachers because they have left the Church and its teachings. They even deny that Jesus is the Christ.
4. If they were not false teachers in the spirit of anti-Christ they would have continued in the fellowship of the church, but since they have left they are therefore easily recognized as false teachers.
5. The believers have already been given the truth and know the truth. There is no need for them to be taught something new.
6. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.
7. The word abide means “remain(s)” and John says: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide[remain] in you. **If **what you heard from the beginning abides[remains] in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. **If **they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. The word “if” is a provisional term that is completely incompatible with OSAS.

God bless.

No I purposely did not skip over certain verses.I thought we were clear on the Anti-Christ verses or at least presumed we all had an understanding that not only is the anti-christ a false teacher the spirit of Antichrist denys Jesus as the son of God and I didn’t feel it a necessity to discuss those verses because no one here(Well,You and I in this here post) has the spirit of Anti Christ.So I felt no need to post the scriptures or discuss them but now we have
This once again is not a valid argument to use on losing salvation.The warning is for the believer to stay on guard against the spirit of antichrist.The scriptures start off by explaining why those who fell away were not really a part of the body of Christ but rather had the spirit of antichrist.These people did not lose salvation,they never had salvation.So I will re post the scripture in light of what I just said and then perhaps you will see what it is that I’m showing you in the scriptures.

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Children of God
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

 

[Louemma]

I have enjoyed this bible discussion with you all.It helps in my studies and I appreciate the courtesy of you on this forum.

I do understand the way you see OSAS or rather not always saved.I must remain with what I have been shown in the scriptures.There are as many scriptures stating that one had better be sure of their salvation and then of course we know the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth to the scriptures and we must trust in the Holy Spirit to teach us the things of God and his word.Thank You for allowing me this discussion on your forum.

And yes I am a Protestant that believes there is a Purgatory of the souls and I came to this belief by searching the scriptures,same as I came to the belief that once you are born again,you have eternal life that can not be lost by you because you don’t hold that eternal life but rather our Lord and Jesus does and he says as much,

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

And I say"YES LORD!"

 

[Pax]

The Holy Spirit is like a seal or imprint.
A seal demonstrates ownership. We are owned by God and so, He has a vested interest in our well-being. The Holy Spirit seals us, and there is no force in the universe that can break that seal. He will see us safely and securely to our final rendezvous with the Father on the day of redemption. We are protected, we are secure, because of the indwelling of God’s Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).
…
…

God is faithful to his promises. His promises, however, are not made without the essence of “covenant.” Covenants are not one way arrangements and there is always more than one participant in a covenant. The new covenant is understood in terms of “marriage” and Jesus is the bride groom and we are all invited to the marriage feast. Scripture shows how covenants were made and broken. We even know that the marriage covenant between a man a woman is not to be violated. It is until death do us part, and God said that no one is to put asunder that which he has brought together. Unfortunately, the marriage covenant is frequently broken. Likewise, people break covenant with God. God does not fail or break his promises in the covenant, but people can and do break the covenant relationship with God.

So those who have true salvation are not going to leave God,who could become spiritually born of the Spirit and then turn and leave?It can not be done because they are born of God and God lives in them and has created in them a new heart.It simply can not happen,a true child of God to lose their eternal life once they have been born again of the spirit by the Spirit of God.Born again of the spirit by the Spirit,is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is the same Spirit that is promised to all of God’s children.This same Spirit that raised Christ lives in the heart of the one who has been born of the spirit by the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is indeed very important. You quoted Eph 1:11 but should have continued reading the letter especially Eph 4:22-32 which says:

Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need. Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

This passage is rich in meaning and it speaks to the “seal of the Holy Spirit” in terms of grieving the Holy Spirit. In the context grieving the Holy Spirit is expressed in terms of deceitful lusts, stealing, evil talk, bitterness, anger, slander, and malice. So what does scripture tell us about people that do such things? Well Paul says this in Galatians 5: 19-21:

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are many more similar passages in scripture that say the same thing that Paul says in that passage from Galatians. If you need more of them, I will be glad to provide them. I will point to one other passage that speaks about the grieving the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 10: 26-31 it says:

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In the context of the passage it says that “The Lord will judge his people.” Christians are the Lord’s people in this passage, and the author is addressing Jewish converts to Christianity. This is but a sample of what can be brought to bear against the false doctrine of OSAS.

I hope this helps.

 

[Pax]

No I purposely did not skip over certain verses.I thought we were clear on the Anti-Christ verses or at least presumed we all had an understanding that not only is the anti-christ a false teacher the spirit of Antichrist denys Jesus as the son of God and I didn’t feel it a necessity to discuss those verses because no one here(Well,You and I in this here post) has the spirit of Anti Christ.So I felt no need to post the scriptures or discuss them but now we have
This once again is not a valid argument to use on losing salvation.The warning is for the believer to stay on guard against the spirit of antichrist.The scriptures start off by explaining why those who fell away were not really a part of the body of Christ but rather had the spirit of antichrist.These people did not lose salvation,they never had salvation.So I will re post the scripture in light of what I just said and then perhaps you will see what it is that I’m showing you in the scriptures.

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.
Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Children of God
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

Louemma in Christ,

I fail to see how this refutes the points I made in my previous posts…I can, however, be a little dense.

 

[Pax]

I have enjoyed this bible discussion with you all.It helps in my studies and I appreciate the courtesy of you on this forum.

I do understand the way you see OSAS or rather not always saved.I must remain with what I have been shown in the scriptures.There are as many scriptures stating that one had better be sure of their salvation and then of course we know the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth to the scriptures and we must trust in the Holy Spirit to teach us the things of God and his word.Thank You for allowing me this discussion on your forum.

And yes I am a Protestant that believes there is a Purgatory of the souls and I came to this belief by searching the scriptures,same as I came to the belief that once you are born again,you have eternal life that can not be lost by you because you don’t hold that eternal life but rather our Lord and Jesus does and he says as much,

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

And I say"YES LORD!"

Louemma in Christ,

It’s always good to discuss things with you, and I’m glad that you feel that we have been courteous to you. It is important that we discuss our differences in Christian charity; afterall, we are brothers and sisters in Christ even though there are things that separate us.

As far as your question goes…yes, I believe what Jesus says in John 11:25. I simply don’t believe that the passage supports OSAS. When scripture speaks of “believing” it is also speaking of obedience.

Faith and Obedience are closely related in Judaism. In the Greek NT the following definitions are very helpful. The verse John 3:36 says a great deal about faith and obedience for salvation. The verse reads as follows:

“He who believes[pisteuo] in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey[apeitheo the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

Strong’s Number: 4100
Transliterated: pisteuo
Phonetic: pist-yoo’-o

Text: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): --believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Strong’s Number: 544
Transliterated: apeitheo
Phonetic: ap-i-theh’-o

Text: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): --not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

It is important to always remember this relationship when reading scripture. One cannot separate faith and obedience. To believe in Jesus is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. We must believe all that Jesus said and did. We must accept his Lordship. Lordship is that part of faith that involves our obedience.

Jesus even tells us in John 12:4-48 that:

I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

Please read all of Jesus’s sayings. Jesus tells us what we must do as believers in him. If we reject his sayings and disobey them we will be judged accordingly on the last day. As members of the Father’s household we must live according to and by God’s grace. Nothing unclean will enter heaven. Jesus himself tells us in Rev 21:8:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

I hope this helps, and God bless.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma in Christ,

I fail to see how this refutes the points I made in my previous posts…I can, however, be a little dense.

Oh I left this off from your post,sorry I do see how I missed your point

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. The word “if” is a provisional term that is completely incompatible with OSAS.

Do we believe that if one has true salvation that it would be possible to receive eternal life through Jesus and then turn around and deny him? Or do you think this scripture is to warn God’s children about the spirit of antichrist?As long as we remain in Christ the spirit of antichrist can not effect us as long as we remain in the Lord.Once again those with true salvation are not going to throw away the life they have found in Jesus.If they do then they never had true salvation or they would have remained.

 

[Des]

It is always difficult and dangerous to attempt to list sins according to their degree of seriousness. In one sense, all sins are equal in that they all separate us from God. The Bible’s statement, “For the wages of sin is death …” (Romans 6:23), applies to all sin, whether in thought, word, or deed.

At the same time, it seems obvious that some sins are worse than others in both motivation and effects, and should be judged accordingly. Stealing a loaf of bread is vastly different than exterminating a million people. Sins may also differ at their root.

Theologians have sought for centuries to determine what the essence of sin is. Some have chosen sensuality, others selfishness, and still others pride or unbelief. In the Old Testament, God applied different penalties to different sins, suggesting variations in the seriousness of some sins. A thief paid restitution; an occult practitioner was cut off from Israel; one who committed adultery or a homosexual act or cursed his parents was put to death (see Exodus, chapter 22 and Leviticus, chapter 20).

In the New Testament Jesus said it would be more bearable on the day of judgment for Sodom than for Capernaum because of Capernaum’s unbelief and refusal to repent after witnessing His miracles (Matthew 11:23-24). The sins of Sodom were identified in Ezekiel 16:21 as arrogance, gluttony, indifference to the poor and needy, haughtiness, and “detestable things.”

When Jesus spoke of his second coming and judgment, he warned that among those deserving punishment some would “be beaten with many blows” and others “with few blows” (Luke 12:47-48). He also reserved His most fierce denunciations for the pride and unbelief of the religious leaders, not the sexually immoral (Matthew 23:13-36).

However, remember that whether our sins are relatively small or great, they will place us in hell apart from God’s grace. The good news is that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and the sins of the whole world at the Cross. If we will repent and turn to Jesus in faith, our sins will be forgiven, and we will receive the gift of eternal life
Eternal life means eternal,forever.Once someone receives eternal life they can not lose it.

Louemma, this is an obvious copy paste from this forum -->> billygraham.org/LFA_Article.asp?ArticleID=60 so please start showing your sources rather than plagerizing someone else’s work.

 

[Pax]

Oh I left this off from your post,sorry I do see how I missed your point

This entire passage is a warning to believers concerning false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, the warning clearly indicates that the truth that these believers were taught from the beginning must “remain” in them for them to remain in the Father and the Son. If they remain faithful they will receive eternal life. The word “if” is a provisional term that is completely incompatible with OSAS.

Do we believe that if one has true salvation that it would be possible to receive eternal life through Jesus and then turn around and deny him? Or do you think this scripture is to warn God’s children about the spirit of antichrist?As long as we remain in Christ the spirit of antichrist can not effect us as long as we remain in the Lord.Once again those with true salvation are not going to throw away the life they have found in Jesus.If they do then they never had true salvation or they would have remained.

Louemma in Christ,

The passage is a warning to Christian believers against gnostic teachers. John would not warn them if there was no danger of them being misled and losing their salvation. The warning as presented would be meaningless, if they could not lose their salvation. These are justified Christians, but that does not mean that they will forever remain so.

I make my arguments on this issue using Protestant theology. Protestant theology teaches salvation by “faith alone.” OSAS believers take this a step further stating that once a person has this faith they are saved, and that once they are saved they are always saved. I first demonstrate by scripture the many verses to the contrary, and then I give examples of believers in scripture that lose their salvation. Remember…it’s faith alone followed by OSAS. All I need to do is show one example in scripture where someone believes and then loses their salvation and the whole thing falls apart. I have the examples if you need them.

God bless.

 

[shondrea]

Well, here’s my two cents. it’s like being saved by faith alone; when you break it down, our views aren’t so different.

If one is a TRUE believer, and accepts and tries with all their heart to follow Jesus, there is no reason why they would reject or loose their salvation.

But if one freely chooses to turn against God, to “jump,” as earlier pages said…well then, what was his faith all along, if he could so easily let it go?

When i think OSAS, I think of “saved” people who talk casually about how they can now go and sin and do anything they want, since they have been 'saved." Bullocks, I say. If you were really “saved,” you’d have no desire to go out and do work contradictory to God’s will! Heck no! But one who is truly “saved” by the Protestant view is one who aimes and strives for God.

So, my view is; a TRUE believer, who believes and follows it ALL, with ALL his heart, is OSAS in abstract, since they would have no reason to jump! But if one is so ready to jump and turn away from God FREELY and WILLINGLY…was he ever “saved” to begin with?

As a Catholic, I believe one can sin willingly and loose their salvation. I believe sin done uncaringly and unapologetically is damnable. But if I was a protestant looking at this, I’d probably say, Well, if they were sinning so horribly that the Catholics would call his actions dannable, well…did he ever really have saving faith in God to begin with?

And as a Catholic, I look at it something like this. I may be OSAS, but my definition of it isn’t like yours. Jesus saved me by dying for me, and now I live to serve and love and obey his teachings. Those who follow God with everything they have will not be turned away from his arms! If I sin, if i fall, I will feel remorse. My faith makes me feel guilt, which pushes me right to repentace, and to strive to not offend God again. My faith saves me over and over again. But if I felt no remorse for my sin, and enjoyed sinning with no thought of how it was offending God…well, my “beliefe” and “faith” in God obviously is very weak and pitiful, or worse, just empty words. Empty faith saves no one. Words with no heart saves no one. Faith, love, and the will to follow God is the saving grace that pushes us back into the arms of salvation. If we feel no urge to return to God, I don’t believe you had that faith to begin with.

No one can snatch you away from heaven and God’s hand, and if you jump…well, if you say you love life, but have no problem pulling that trigger when the muzzle is aimed at your head…you’re a liar, plain and simple.

 

[steve_b]

Faith Saves you,your action can only come after the Faith.

without faith we can’t please God, but without good works, faith is dead.
L:

If you are not saved,sin is sin!

not true.
L:

If your saved there is no sin that can separate you from the Father.

That’s anti scriptural. answered next
L:

Don’t say blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because someone who does there is no hope,so that don’t count here.I’m not sure that sin can be committed today!

Sin that can keep you out of heaven by definition seperates you from God. Not all sin does that. But there IS sin that does.

Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness…… 5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM…but a fearful punishment as an enemy of God

Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance

Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
L:

Obedience could be considered a work and this is true we must be obedient but the Protestant would not call this a work.We do this because we want to please the Lord because we love him.

We know the roots of Protestantism. It came about in the 16th century. Serial division and schism from the Church of Rome. Paul condemned such division.

Rm 16:

**17 **I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

look at the list of sins up the page, particularly division. Division is a deadly sin for the soul in the 1st century, as it is in the 16th century, as it is forever. Paul warns, DON’T do it.
L:

Faith is not obedience.

On the contrary

The 1st time Paul mentions faith to the Church of Rome he says

Rm 1:
1* Paul, a servant * of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God. 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated * Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5* through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;

Paul closes his letter to the Church of Rome by saying

Rm 16:
26 but is now disclosed and through the prophetic writings is made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith– 27 to the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
L:

There are two judgements
(1) For the children of God-THE BEMA SEAT JUDGEMENT
(2) The Great White Throne Judgement-For the ones who died without eternal life
So NO I am not skipping over Judgements

There ARE 2 judgements

• at the moment of death. A soul is judged and goes either to hell, or heaven with possible purification before entering. ,
• the final judgement.
• Those that are still alive at the end of the world are judged.
• The bodies of all the dead who have already been judged, rise and are reunited to their souls. Those souls that were in heaven return to heaven body and soul, those in hell return to hell body and soul

L:

I do believe in Communion just not as the same as the Catholic teach.

Protestants don’t have the Eucharist.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

darth vader: there is no escape. Don’t make me destroy you.
[pauses]

darth vader: luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and i will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

luke: i’ll never join you!

**darth vader: **if you only knew the power of the dark side. Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father.

**luke: **he told me enough! He told me you killed him!

**darth vader: **no. i am your father.

luke: no. No. That’s not true. That’s impossible!

darth vader: search your feelings, you know it to be true!

luke: [anguished] no! No!

epic win!

 

[JRKH]

If I may butt in here-----

I think that this thread has probably been of great use to the OP. The charitable discussion between Louemma and others is inspiring.

In the end it can be said that there are bible verses that support both views. Such a conclusion can hardly be denied in good conscience.
That being said catholics, and others who reject OSAS, should be able to take away from this that we, at least have an assurance of getting to heaven, so long as we remain faithful to Our Lord.
Those who accept OSAS, should also be able to recognize that they cannot see into the furure - not even their own future - very far and so cannot say with an absolute guarentee that they or any other person who currently claims to be Christian will not fall away before death and thus show that they were “never truly saved in the first place”.

So overall the thing that both sides should recognize is that, while predestination and OSAS may be interesting things to discuss, they are actually moot points to our daily walk. Each day we must move forward, rejoicing in our Lord, Doing His will, struggling to resist sin, and hastening back to Him when we stumble. Each day we must, by His Holy grace, diligently guard our salvation and work to build up our Holiness that we may fulfill His command that we are to “become perfect as (our) heavenly Father is perfect.”

The other thing that I see in this whole OSAS debate is how it points to the need for “authority”. The Temporal Authority of the whole Church, acting in concert with the Holy Spirit, to determine, humbly and prayerfully, which of these opposing views is correct.
It is obvious from the many posts that the bible is not sufficient in this case to resolve the matter since both sides can comfortably site many passages (and sometimes even the same ones) in support of their position.
This is why Jesus provided us with the One Church, with the authority to bind and loose. The One Church which he tells us to listen to and obey in Mt 18:15-18.
The one Church that demonstrated it’s authority to find on doctinal matters effecting the Universal Church in Acts 15.

Let us all pray that all Chriatisns will one day be reunited.

Peace
James

 

[Pax]

JRKH,

Well stated.

God bless.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH,

Well stated.

God bless.

I thank you for those kind words, not for myself who am nothing, but for Our Dear Lord and His most Holy Spirit who inspires Daily.

Peace
James

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Interesting that you would use this scenario of the dying child.
There was a woman who loved the Lord and had always tried to live her life for the Lord.Going to church and taking her children,teaching her children about the Lord and trusted in the Lord.
Then the unimaginable,the feared nightmare that all parents fear to become a reality happened.The woman lost her young 19 year old son.Her son that was saved as a child.Her son that said he would become a preacher one day died from a drug overdose.
The woman became angry and decided that God could not be trusted,would not hear prayers from a mother to keep her children safe.The woman decided that IF THERE was a God she wondered how he could be so cruel as to allow her child to die.The woman then tried bargaining,Let me take his place Lord.I will lay down my life if you’ll give him back his life,take me instead Lord.This woman would have done this if that were possible.
That is when the Lord come to her in her grief,in her anger and showed her that there is no greater love then for someone to lay down their life for another and that is what our Lord Jesus done for each and everyone of us so that we can live forever with him in the Father’s kingdom.
What about the son who was saved and died in his sin?Did he lose his salvation?No but the boy could have went through the fires of purgatory but his soul is safe with Jesus.

This story does not answer my question at all. I know very well that the Lord is there for us IF we turn to Him in our grief. I am talking about the person who does not. This is a person that was a believer who has lost faith and turns into an unrepentant sinner (mortal sin). Is that person saved? OSAS says yes. The Catholic Church and Scripture say no

The lamp stand?

The seven churches described in Revelation 2-3 are seven literal churches at the time that John the apostle was writing Revelation. Though they were literal churches in that time, there is also spiritual significance for churches and believers today. The first purpose is to write to the literal churches and meet their needs at that time. The second purpose is to reveal seven different types of individuals/churches throughout history and instruct them in God’s truth.

A possible third purpose is using the seven churches to represent seven different periods in the history of the Church. The problem with this view is that each of the seven churches describes issues that could fit the Church in any time in its history. So although there may be some truth to the seven churches representing seven eras of the Church, too many people go into far too much speculation in order to determine which church fits which era. Instead, our focus should be on what message God is giving to us through the seven churches.
The lamp stand being removed from the church can not be used effectively as an argument to say one can lose salvation because these were churches that Christ was addressing and the things the church was allowing to go on and Jesus was warning them that if they didn’t clean house he would not dwell among them.

What is the lamp stand? Do you believe that the lamp stand is a literal lamp stand? If Jesus does not dwell among them, how can these believers who were once saved, be saved? We are the Church, the Body of Christ. Jesus is not just speaking to a Church, He was speaking to the Body of Christ in the Church. In other words, the Scripture has a literal sense (the literal seven Churches) and a Spiritual sense( allegorical, moral and anagogical) In this passage, you appear only to be acknowledging the literal sense.

A couple of additional questions, do you believe in mortal/ deadly sin? Also, how do you interpret 1 Cor 9:27? “No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified”. Interestingly, the Greek word used in the Bible for “disqualified” is “adokimos” which literally means rejected or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it refers to those who are condemned, who have failed the test, or worthless. Why would Paul be concerned about being “disqualified” if He knew He was “saved”?

 

[ftblwolf]

Hey all,

Thank you all for the time taken to converse about this topic. It truly has been helpful and greatly appreciated. The only last thing I could say is, well said JRHK and ditto.

God Bless

 

[crazzeto]

@Louemma

What do you do with this one Scripture then?

Matthew 7 NIV
"21 “Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven…”

Or how about Romans 11?
"11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

If you’re right, how can a “saved Christian” be cut off per St. Paul?

 

[JRKH]

Hey all,

Thank you all for the time taken to converse about this topic. It truly has been helpful and greatly appreciated. The only last thing I could say is, well said JRKH and ditto.

God Bless

You are welcome.

I have often played the “authority card” on threads like these but only after a appropriate amount of time so that each side can be seen to be:
a) Sincere
b) Biblical Based
c) Firmly and Unalterably Convicted in their position.

Once these things are established the question becomes, how do Christians of good conscience and Holy desire, resolve such matters. I found my answer in Mt 18:15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 **“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” **

The first thing to recognize is that the spreading of a false doctrine is a sin. It wounds the unity of the Body of Christ. This is especially bad when such disagreements threaten to split believers apart.
Once it is recognized that teaching error is a sin, we can look through the passage and see how to proceed. First we talk privately, then we bring in a small group, again trying to keep things charitable and not exposing anyone to ridicule. If this does not work then we are left with bringing the matter to The Church.
In the cases of these threads, Step one and two are already satisifed. This leaves only one option. To take it to The Church. As Catholics we can do that. We know that The Church has already looked at these questions and reached a firm understanding which she teaches universally.
The Protestant, The non-catholic Christian, on the other hand cannot obey Christ’s command in this matter. For even if the doctrinal dissenter were taken before the assembly and kicked out, that person can go down the street to another community, where they DO agree with him. Can this person be called a “nonchristian”? After all he now belongs to a Christian community who says he IS Christian. Can the first church demand that the second church not admit him? They cannot, for they have no authority over that other community.
Thus is the body of Christ wounded by these disagreements. The only salve that will give succor to and heal these wounds is the salve of Christian unity. A unity that is achievable only by a willingness to accept humbly a temporal authority able to resolve these matters of faith and morals.

I am sure that this presentation of mine will be passed over, just as it almost always is, but I hope it plants at least a seed in the hearts of us all, catholic and non-catholic alike, to seek unity in Truth.

Peace
James

 

[mackbrislawn]

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

“He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . .” John 3:36

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life…” This statement can only mean that he that does not believe on the Son does not have everlasting life. So, if you quit believing, you also quit having everlasting life. QED

“Salvation is trusting or believing in…” In the same way, he that no longer trusts or believes no longer has salvation. QED