Need Help with responses to abusive ex-Catholic Non denominational guy

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I understand the feeling from the other side of the aisle. I’m a Protestant and I’ve had a Catholic I know blow up on me a number of times for not converting to Roman Catholicism.
Thanks, JAS. I’m sure it happens to everyone on either side of the religious (or political–that’s my speciality!) aisle. Nobody, especially not a person claiming to be a Christian, should behave in such a manner. It angered me that this leader basically told me we should not have religious freedom, that everyone should be forced to follow his denomination, not only for the sentiment alone, which is ludicrous, but also because I had told him before he exploded, when speaking of politics, that people on both sides of the aisle live in a “bubble” of their own politically-similar, if not -identical, others. I’m sure your feelings are the same. Best!
 
salzmank,

“Once burned, twice learned.”

If nothing else, you learned something that may well help you in the future.

One time I got out of a bad situation by saying, “excuse me, but I need to go to the restroom.”
 
Thank you for your kind words and advice! “Clearly a setup. They expected…” This is exactly what my mother said too. I just think he never had anyone challenge him before. That’s why he kept saying that I just want to “respond, not listen.” I know now how bad it can get. I had read stories like that before, but I had never previously known it for myself. I come from a community where the different Protestants and Catholics all work together, like each other, etc., and it was the same way until this point here at BC, so this was quite a shock for me at an emotional rather than intellectual level.
I know now to keep far away from anyone who badgers me like this kid in class did. Problem is, he truly is a friendly person, but the set-up is–well, not unforgivable, perhaps, but certainly unforgettable.

Thanks again!
It’s OK to have discussions with them…but even in the one on one format, they typically carpet bomb you to death with their objections. And you just can not allow them to do that. You also have to be on the offense.

Example*: You people worship Mary. All your Marian beliefs are unbiblical*.

After you provide your answer, follow up with" the scriptures say all generations will call me blessed, with all due respect, your Churches don’t call her anything. Why is that? We call her blessed every week, so who is being more biblical there"?

Make them think; but do it respectfully, as you have been. It will leave a lasting impression.👍

Once again, you did a excellent job. Made me smile reading your original post because you are a young person and you handled it like a seasoned veteran.
 
salzmank.

Nice work.

I would NOT go to the guys’s Bible study, at least on his turf (it will be an ambush that is really unproductive. Sounds like you’ve gotten enough of that on “neutral turf” already. You don’t need more.).

Just like you are doing, I also would continue not having him come to your dorm room. Tell him you want to keep these discussions on a more distanced “neutral” setting.

If you are praying, going to Confession frequently, Mass and Adoration, keep the dialougue going!

If you are not, distance yourself from this quickly. Sin darkens the intellect, and serious sin darkens it seriously.

You won’t be prepared to withstand the onslaught you will get from a man who sounds well trained in his anti-Catholicism.

But I get the sense you ARE prepared to begin this ongoing lifelong discussion (God will put others like this in your life too).

Always finish by saying something like, "Let’s get together and discuss this some more this Wednesday (or whenever. Be specific. Not a “Well. We will have to do this again some time”).

I have a minister friend who tried very hard to get me out of the Church for a long time. Eventually he moved away. He kind of soured on our friendship eventually when he got tired of hearing the same calls from me that he tried to put upon me initially.

I heard from a mutual friend who used to be associated with his parish and is now Catholic that he openly admits he regrets his anti-Catholicism in the past!

Karl Keating has talked about this phenomenon too. Basically it is, “He may not become Catholic from your dialogues, but he MAY ditch his anti-Catholicism.”

This may pay big dividends for some poor college kid years from now when this guy MAY be leading “Campus Crusade for Christ” or “Intervarsity” or some such thing and a few Catholic kids show up.

The lounge site you described sounds great.

I’ll try and PM you in a day or two and see if I can help some more.

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
ImmaCatholic. You said . . .
I think it was really low of your class mate to purposely surprise you like this (calling his leaders ahead of time and not even mentioning it to you until you were in the lounge!).
Maybe but maybe not.

I’d suggest to you that the classmate is a good kid, but this is what he has been taught.

This might be the only “evengelization” he knows. “Tell them to submit” and manipulation from his “leaders”.

Just by listening to the anti-Catholic and salzmank discuss, it will raise questions in the classmates mind. Questions that may move him closer to truth even if it doesn’t for the anti-Catholic leader.

Look at the ex-Catholic virulently anti-Catholic leader as a deeply wounded ex-Catholic who God placed salzmank into his (and the others) into his life because God expects great things from those who are willing - like salzmank may be being called for here.

Look at him as someone who needs the faith shared with (salzmank said he sounded very ignorant of his Catholic faith).

Look at him as a potential convert (even though it may be exceedingly hard to do so).

A “dust up”? Salzmank can take it. And salmank can offer it up (IF being called to do so).

Admittedly not all are called to this sort of abusive discussion, but some people are called to more intense dialogues.

Salzmank sounded very patient, cool, well-informed and prepared. This will bring a lot of flack in these situations typically.

Maybe God is going to do that with you too ImmaCatholic.
 
I’d like some help if no one minds, but I’m completely new here, so if I’m putting this under the wrong thread, please let me know and I’ll move it.

I’m a cradle-Catholic and a sophomore at a Catholic university (Boston College). I usually attend either the Tridentine Mass (“Extraordinary Form”) at Mary Immaculate of Lourdes or the Anglican Use Mass at St. Athanasius. I’m also a lector at my church at home, which is Ordinary Form. All that for background!

I’m in a French class with a friendly kid who converted from Catholicism to some kind of (forgive me) wacky “non-denominational” Protestant sect. Really nice kid, but he can’t leave off any opportunity to proselytize.

I was also in a (different) French class with him last semester. There was a radical atheist fellow who came in and essentially said all Catholics and conservatives are evil, blah, blah, blah. I argued with him (I think I won the argument, but he became very insulted because he was a professor–not my professor, admittedly, but a different one), and neither of us came out very happy.

But the kid came out happy, apparently, because, seeing I had a knowledge of Scripture, he rushed up to me after class and asked me if I wanted to do a Bible study with him. As you can guess, I knew where this was leading, so I nicely responded that I’d like to meet up with him but wasn’t so crazy about doing a Bible study with him. After going back and forth, he said, “OK, maybe some other time,” and left.

Wouldn’t you know it, we’re in a French class together again this semester, and this time he hasn’t stopped hounding me about going to his Bible study. Day in and out every single day! Finally (mea culpa), I gave in. We just met a few hours ago. Then he told me his church leaders had come too. Oh, no.

It started off all friendly and cheerful, until they started whipping out the Bible and asking me for every line, verse, period, and semicolon. I held my own, based on material I’d learnt from Catholic Answers, and responded to every one of his points.

He was furious. He started screaming at me, telling me I was going to hell. I wanted to stand up and leave at that very moment, but his friend calmed him down, whereupon he fell silent.

After his friend (who was much nicer about the whole thing) finished speaking, the first guy said that I was coming in with a closed mind and that I wouldn’t bear to hear “what the Scriptures plainly say.”

I pushed back, naturally. I quoted Lewis, Chesterton, Augustine, Aquinas, Newman–all of which I probably shouldn’t have, because then he told me I was following “their theology” and not what God is “plainly saying to me in the Scriptures.”

He wanted me to have a proof-text for every single word that was coming out of my mouth. I told him he didn’t have a proof-text for every single word coming out of his mouth. He just said that my mind was “made-up,” that I was not a Christian, and that I just wanted to argue, not listen.

I laughed.

He said my laughing about such a serious matter showed I was going to hell.

I said the Almighty created laughter, did he not?

“Not about salvation.”

By the way, he later laughed at my beliefs. I called him out on it in an instant, and he shut up quicker than you can say “Jack Robinson.”

We left on atrocious terms. He quoted another passage to me. I responded, “‘Love one another.’ That’s what you and I should do, no?”

He walked out.

The kid from class tried to smooth things over, but his church leader was so angry.

I need help. I never want to put myself in that kind of situation again, but, if it ever happens, what do I do? I responded to all of his points, using Scripture but also appealing to the fact that Scripture itself never says that it is the only authority.

I am well-versed in Protestant theology and was able to explain his theology, but he kept saying this was “new to me.” We eventually got into a ridiculous debate on the meaning of the words Christian, disciple, and called. I kid you not!

I know this is long, but could someone help me out here? My heart’s still racing from when the argument got very bad. My thanks!
Doesn’t sound like you need any help. I’m glad you didn’t leave but was able to stand your ground 👍. It’s only natural your heart was racing I’ve had that heart racing a few times also. Sounds like you got their hearts racing too. My experience is when a Protestant asks a Catholic to a bible study they mean bible indoctrination. You are expected to sit there and listen to their view and not challenge them.

It’s always good to clarify if it’s open discussion of different views or a lecture on their interpretation only. I would start asking your friend to meet one on one to discuss views. By the way will you go back if asked?
 
Salzmank,

Wow I’m also a sophomore at university! 🙂 I think you handled the entire thing really well! When someone starts to scream in general, it means that they are panicking and that is their last resort. You did nothing wrong, and may I add it was also extremely smart of you to meet them in a lounge as opposed to your dorm room. I think it was really low of your class mate to purposely surprise you like this (calling his leaders ahead of time and not even mentioning it to you until you were in the lounge!).
Thank you, fellow sophomore! I hope they did begin to think about it and, if nothing else, be a bit kinder in the future.

Thanks again!
 
salzmank,

“Once burned, twice learned.”

If nothing else, you learned something that may well help you in the future.

One time I got out of a bad situation by saying, “excuse me, but I need to go to the restroom.”
Thanks for the suggestion, Fred! There were a few moments that I just wanted to leave, but then the leader’s friend (not my classmate) would interpose a bit more softly, apologizing for his friend. That’s not to ascribe to him any truly altruistic motive, just perhaps that he knew that screaming at someone over and over is not the best way to convince others!

I have learnt something that was previously only theoretical to me.

Thanks again!
 
It’s OK to have discussions with them…but even in the one on one format, they typically carpet bomb you to death with their objections. And you just can not allow them to do that. You also have to be on the offense.

Example*: You people worship Mary. All your Marian beliefs are unbiblical*.

After you provide your answer, follow up with" the scriptures say all generations will call me blessed, with all due respect, your Churches don’t call her anything. Why is that? We call her blessed every week, so who is being more biblical there"?

Make them think; but do it respectfully, as you have been. It will leave a lasting impression.👍

Once again, you did a excellent job. Made me smile reading your original post because you are a young person and you handled it like a seasoned veteran.
That was exactly what happened, “carpet bomb[ing] with their objections.” I understand that it’s OK to have discussions, I just was simply unready for it. My classmate tends to be extremely soft-spoken and, as I say, truly friendly. So, even if he continually “carpet bombed” me, I believe the whole thing would have come off a lot nicer. But, as it is, that church leader just ranted and raved like a lunatic. I hope that conversation does leave a lasting impression; it certainly taught me that there are people, even if only a few, who are interested more in belittling others than having an actual dialogue. And knowing that is, of course, an excellent skill for life.

Again, thanks for all your kind words!
 
salzmank.

Nice work.

I would NOT go to the guys’s Bible study, at least on his turf (it will be an ambush that is really unproductive. Sounds like you’ve gotten enough of that on “neutral turf” already. You don’t need more.).

Just like you are doing, I also would continue not having him come to your dorm room. Tell him you want to keep these discussions on a more distanced “neutral” setting.

If you are praying, going to Confession frequently, Mass and Adoration, keep the dialougue going!

If you are not, distance yourself from this quickly. Sin darkens the intellect, and serious sin darkens it seriously.

You won’t be prepared to withstand the onslaught you will get from a man who sounds well trained in his anti-Catholicism.

But I get the sense you ARE prepared to begin this ongoing lifelong discussion (God will put others like this in your life too).

Always finish by saying something like, "Let’s get together and discuss this some more this Wednesday (or whenever. Be specific. Not a “Well. We will have to do this again some time”).

I have a minister friend who tried very hard to get me out of the Church for a long time. Eventually he moved away. He kind of soured on our friendship eventually when he got tired of hearing the same calls from me that he tried to put upon me initially.

I heard from a mutual friend who used to be associated with his parish and is now Catholic that he openly admits he regrets his anti-Catholicism in the past!

Karl Keating has talked about this phenomenon too. Basically it is, “He may not become Catholic from your dialogues, but he MAY ditch his anti-Catholicism.”

This may pay big dividends for some poor college kid years from now when this guy MAY be leading “Campus Crusade for Christ” or “Intervarsity” or some such thing and a few Catholic kids show up.

The lounge site you described sounds great.

I’ll try and PM you in a day or two and see if I can help some more.

God bless.

Cathoholic
Thank you, Cathoholic. By the way, did you see my response to your PM?

Thanks for the advice, too, but I doubt I’ll be holding a dialogue with him or his group again even if he asks (and I’ll be seeing him in class tomorrow morning). It’s not that I don’t want to share the faith, etc., just that these individuals will not see reason no matter what I do. I believe I would just be wasting my energies. On the other hand, I will try to be friendly to my classmate and lead by example, so to speak. I think that will help both of us to move on.

I hope that they do regret their anti-Catholicism. I’m perfectly happy with dealing with people from all religions, with the caveat that they respect mine as well. These people neither believe in religious tolerance nor any basic level of respect, which really annoyed me.

As I say, Boston College is a Catholic school, and there’s an adoration chapel right across the way from that classroom. I usually pray there for a little while after class. (Indeed, that’s where this classmate found me when he first asked if I wanted to go to his–er–“Bible study.”)

Thanks again!

Karl
 
Doesn’t sound like you need any help. I’m glad you didn’t leave but was able to stand your ground 👍. It’s only natural your heart was racing I’ve had that heart racing a few times also. Sounds like you got their hearts racing too. My experience is when a Protestant asks a Catholic to a bible study they mean bible indoctrination. You are expected to sit there and listen to their view and not challenge them.

It’s always good to clarify if it’s open discussion of different views or a lecture on their interpretation only. I would start asking your friend to meet one on one to discuss views. By the way will you go back if asked?
To answer your question, probably not. I just see it as a waste of time and effort, especially after I was so verbally assaulted in that manner. That is simply a level of disrespect and nastiness that I see no reason to give these people any more of my time. Indeed, I never wanted to go in the first place!

“You are expected to sit there and listen to their view and not challenge them.” That’s exactly it: every time I tried to respond, I was told, “That’s because you only want to respond, to challenge, and not listen to the Gospel as God is clearly telling you.” And, when I tried to bring in what someone (even a Protestant like Luther) said about an issue, I was told, “That’s what [X] is telling you, Karl. I want to know what Karl is telling himself.” And, when I told him what I was telling myself, it was “that’s because of what you were taught, it’s not what you’re telling yourself.”

So, pretty much the good old “no true Scotsman” fallacy! But, then again, these people care not one whit for reason, they just blindly obeyed. That also annoyed me, especially when they continually told me that that’s what I was doing. It was actually somewhat scary; “indoctrination” is exactly the word for it.

Not to tempt my fate, but it makes me happy that, unlike the large majority of my generation, I don’t really have any kinds of social media. These people could very easily begin writing all kinds of nasty things about me online; that, I think, is more likely than any kind of physical retribution, although with the way the leader was acting I still remain somewhat worried about that too.

Thanks for the kind words and the good advice!
 
To answer your question, probably not. I just see it as a waste of time and effort, especially after I was so verbally assaulted in that manner. That is simply a level of disrespect and nastiness that I see no reason to give these people any more of my time. Indeed, I never wanted to go in the first place!
I think you’ve learned a difficult but valuable lesson, so with this new wisdom it is not a total loss.
“You are expected to sit there and listen to their view and not challenge them.” That’s exactly it: every time I tried to respond, I was told, “That’s because you only want to respond, to challenge, and not listen to the Gospel as God is clearly telling you.” And, when I tried to bring in what someone (even a Protestant like Luther) said about an issue, I was told, “That’s what [X] is telling you, Karl. I want to know what Karl is telling himself.” And, when I told him what I was telling myself, it was “that’s because of what you were taught, it’s not what you’re telling yourself.”
🙂 So what he was really saying is that it doesn’t matter what you really think or how it is informed because it’s all lies unless it is what he thinks. That’s some of the most messed up cult style programming babble I’ve ever seen anywhere. I also suspect that it’s largely another case of “I’ve made up my mind. Don’t try to confuse me with facts.”:hypno:
So, pretty much the good old “no true Scotsman” fallacy! But, then again, these people care not one whit for reason, they just blindly obeyed.
That also annoyed me, especially when they continually told me that that’s what I was doing. It was actually somewhat scary; “indoctrination” is exactly the word for it.Which is kinda funny because isn’t that exactly what we Catholics are so often accused of by anti-Catholics?
Not to tempt my fate, but it makes me happy that, unlike the large majority of my generation, I don’t really have any kinds of social media. These people could very easily begin writing all kinds of nasty things about me online; that, I think, is more likely than any kind of physical retribution, although with the way the leader was acting I still remain somewhat worried about that too.
Soc Media is waay over rated. I’m with you on that all the way.

However, I also have experienced that threatening behavior and when he said something about doing violence to me I simply said quietly, “That would be real Christian…” and walked off. Believe it or not he came to me later and apologized and said I was “the most Catholic guy he’d ever met”, which I smiled and took as a great compliment.🙂
 
My top 10 things to know about “bible Christianity”
  1. Sola scriptura grants unlimited license to twist the scriptures.
  2. The ego reigns supreme in bible Christianity.
  3. Humility is not generally a virtue among bible Christians. Being correct is.
  4. Thus, the ego’s interpretation is 100% correct and all opposing viewpoints are wrong. If Catholic, they are evil.
  5. Since the ego rules, it is correct because it must be correct. Ego + bible = the HAL9000 of theology: perfect and incapable of error.
  6. Separation demands justification for that separation - thus Catholicism is evil.
  7. Nothing on earth will change such opinionated, angry, hate-filled minds.
  8. Only the Holy Spirit can effect their change of heart.
  9. Thus, pray for them daily.
  10. Today, shake the dust from your sandals and walk away.
These are the fruits of the reformation.

Our Lord said: “You will know them by their fruits.”
 
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