Need Help with responses to abusive ex-Catholic Non denominational guy

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I’d like some help if no one minds, but I’m completely new here, so if I’m putting this under the wrong thread, please let me know and I’ll move it.

I’m a cradle-Catholic and a sophomore at a Catholic university (Boston College). I usually attend either the Tridentine Mass (“Extraordinary Form”) at Mary Immaculate of Lourdes or the Anglican Use Mass at St. Athanasius. I’m also a lector at my church at home, which is Ordinary Form. All that for background!

I’m in a French class with a friendly kid who converted from Catholicism to some kind of (forgive me) wacky “non-denominational” Protestant sect. Really nice kid, but he can’t leave off any opportunity to proselytize.

I was also in a (different) French class with him last semester. There was a radical atheist fellow who came in and essentially said all Catholics and conservatives are evil, blah, blah, blah. I argued with him (I think I won the argument, but he became very insulted because he was a professor–not my professor, admittedly, but a different one), and neither of us came out very happy.

But the kid came out happy, apparently, because, seeing I had a knowledge of Scripture, he rushed up to me after class and asked me if I wanted to do a Bible study with him. As you can guess, I knew where this was leading, so I nicely responded that I’d like to meet up with him but wasn’t so crazy about doing a Bible study with him. After going back and forth, he said, “OK, maybe some other time,” and left.

Wouldn’t you know it, we’re in a French class together again this semester, and this time he hasn’t stopped hounding me about going to his Bible study. Day in and out every single day! Finally (mea culpa), I gave in. We just met a few hours ago. Then he told me his church leaders had come too. Oh, no.

It started off all friendly and cheerful, until they started whipping out the Bible and asking me for every line, verse, period, and semicolon. I held my own, based on material I’d learnt from Catholic Answers, and responded to every one of his points.

He was furious. He started screaming at me, telling me I was going to hell. I wanted to stand up and leave at that very moment, but his friend calmed him down, whereupon he fell silent.

After his friend (who was much nicer about the whole thing) finished speaking, the first guy said that I was coming in with a closed mind and that I wouldn’t bear to hear “what the Scriptures plainly say.”

I pushed back, naturally. I quoted Lewis, Chesterton, Augustine, Aquinas, Newman–all of which I probably shouldn’t have, because then he told me I was following “their theology” and not what God is “plainly saying to me in the Scriptures.”

He wanted me to have a proof-text for every single word that was coming out of my mouth. I told him he didn’t have a proof-text for every single word coming out of his mouth. He just said that my mind was “made-up,” that I was not a Christian, and that I just wanted to argue, not listen.

I laughed.

He said my laughing about such a serious matter showed I was going to hell.

I said the Almighty created laughter, did he not?

“Not about salvation.”

By the way, he later laughed at my beliefs. I called him out on it in an instant, and he shut up quicker than you can say “Jack Robinson.”

We left on atrocious terms. He quoted another passage to me. I responded, “‘Love one another.’ That’s what you and I should do, no?”

He walked out.

The kid from class tried to smooth things over, but his church leader was so angry.

I need help. I never want to put myself in that kind of situation again, but, if it ever happens, what do I do? I responded to all of his points, using Scripture but also appealing to the fact that Scripture itself never says that it is the only authority.

I am well-versed in Protestant theology and was able to explain his theology, but he kept saying this was “new to me.” We eventually got into a ridiculous debate on the meaning of the words Christian, disciple, and called. I kid you not!

I know this is long, but could someone help me out here? My heart’s still racing from when the argument got very bad.

My thanks!
I disagree, I think you did fine. sometimes the lord expects us to defend the faith. even if the opponents do not receive it well. that’s hardly your fault.

remember all the Pharisees that were trying to constantly ambush Jesus with trick questions?

you mention your classmate is an ex-catholic. do you know his reasons for leaving? maybe he has some beef with the church that you just don’t know about. or he just doesn’t want to admit that he was wrong for leaving. and odds are he was poorly catechized

I always ask this question. does God expect all Christians to be literate? because if someone couldn’t read the bible for themselves, how would they know what the scriptures said? they would have to rely on someone else teling them, which would end up being that other person’s interpretation

so logical conclusion, those who can’t read go to hell. which of course, is ridiculous. there is simply no teaching that says you have ot read the bible yourself to go to heaven
 
OP I would like to say that I think you did beautifully. I’m an Anglican and believe it or not, I’ve been similarly confronted about my faith (though it wasn’t nearly as bad as yours). Just remember that all their reaction means is that you had the better argument, and they just couldnt deal with that.
 
I’d like some help if no one minds, but I’m completely new here, so if I’m putting this under the wrong thread, please let me know and I’ll move it.

I’m a cradle-Catholic and a sophomore at a Catholic university (Boston College). I usually attend either the Tridentine Mass (“Extraordinary Form”) at Mary Immaculate of Lourdes or the Anglican Use Mass at St. Athanasius. I’m also a lector at my church at home, which is Ordinary Form. All that for background!

I’m in a French class with a friendly kid who converted from Catholicism to some kind of (forgive me) wacky “non-denominational” Protestant sect. Really nice kid, but he can’t leave off any opportunity to proselytize.

I was also in a (different) French class with him last semester. There was a radical atheist fellow who came in and essentially said all Catholics and conservatives are evil, blah, blah, blah. I argued with him (I think I won the argument, but he became very insulted because he was a professor–not my professor, admittedly, but a different one), and neither of us came out very happy.

But the kid came out happy, apparently, because, seeing I had a knowledge of Scripture, he rushed up to me after class and asked me if I wanted to do a Bible study with him. As you can guess, I knew where this was leading, so I nicely responded that I’d like to meet up with him but wasn’t so crazy about doing a Bible study with him. After going back and forth, he said, “OK, maybe some other time,” and left.

Wouldn’t you know it, we’re in a French class together again this semester, and this time he hasn’t stopped hounding me about going to his Bible study. Day in and out every single day! Finally (mea culpa), I gave in. We just met a few hours ago. Then he told me his church leaders had come too. Oh, no.

It started off all friendly and cheerful, until they started whipping out the Bible and asking me for every line, verse, period, and semicolon. I held my own, based on material I’d learnt from Catholic Answers, and responded to every one of his points.

He was furious. He started screaming at me, telling me I was going to hell. I wanted to stand up and leave at that very moment, but his friend calmed him down, whereupon he fell silent.

After his friend (who was much nicer about the whole thing) finished speaking, the first guy said that I was coming in with a closed mind and that I wouldn’t bear to hear “what the Scriptures plainly say.”

I pushed back, naturally. I quoted Lewis, Chesterton, Augustine, Aquinas, Newman–all of which I probably shouldn’t have, because then he told me I was following “their theology” and not what God is “plainly saying to me in the Scriptures.”

He wanted me to have a proof-text for every single word that was coming out of my mouth. I told him he didn’t have a proof-text for every single word coming out of his mouth. He just said that my mind was “made-up,” that I was not a Christian, and that I just wanted to argue, not listen.
Ask him what “born again” means, what the Jesus meant when he said “This is my body, this is my blood, etc”, and how he knows which books are in his Bible. I think these are generally good places to start. Your job is to inform, not to convince.
I laughed.

He said my laughing about such a serious matter showed I was going to hell.

I said the Almighty created laughter, did he not?

“Not about salvation.”

By the way, he later laughed at my beliefs. I called him out on it in an instant, and he shut up quicker than you can say “Jack Robinson.”

We left on atrocious terms. He quoted another passage to me. I responded, “‘Love one another.’ That’s what you and I should do, no?”

He walked out.

The kid from class tried to smooth things over, but his church leader was so angry.

I need help. I never want to put myself in that kind of situation again, but, if it ever happens, what do I do? I responded to all of his points, using Scripture but also appealing to the fact that Scripture itself never says that it is the only authority.

I am well-versed in Protestant theology and was able to explain his theology, but he kept saying this was “new to me.” We eventually got into a ridiculous debate on the meaning of the words Christian, disciple, and called. I kid you not!

I know this is long, but could someone help me out here? My heart’s still racing from when the argument got very bad.

My thanks!
 
You did a great job.

One thing I’ve found helpful in dealing with aggressive people like this is to come up with a rebuff and practice saying it ahead of time, possibly something like “Please leave me alone/stop harassing me.” Say nothing else, just keep repeating it and get away as quickly as you can. If he persists, tell him you consider his attempts as harassment and will take whatever steps are necessary to stop them.
 
Ditto here too. You sound so sweet I could hug you which was all I was thinking about wanting to do while reading your post. I’m sorry you had to go through that, but it sounds like you handled everything very well. Lets hope God will bring a lot of good out of it- for everyone- for people to possibly get even closer to God than they were before because of this…* How awesome would that be?!! * What if he is actually starting to think on things that were said! How cool would that be!!! :crossrc:🎉:extrahappy:

If people get into debates its not often for the love of truth or seeking the truth to mutually share as in the proverb “iron sharpens iron”. Its often to fight for their personal desire or goal, or to ‘win’. Its not really worth getting into then, unless you want to be the rooster crowing on top of the compost heap looking down on all the others. If that is what floats someone’s boat, just let them have the compost heap.
 
“After the first or second admonition reject”…Pray that God’s grace will work on his heart but don’t get drawn into an argument. That’s the trap.
 
I understand the feeling from the other side of the aisle. I’m a Protestant and I’ve had a Catholic I know blow up on me a number of times for not converting to Roman Catholicism.
 
You’re welcome. I have been in similar situations, but not quite that bad. Now, I try to only discuss these things with people that are honestly seeking the truth.

To respond to your follow up questions - I agree that you are in no way required to respond to openly abusive people who are looking for a fight. To take it a step further, this person likely used you in order to set up the fight or at least to try to convert you. In this way, they can manufacture their own version of credibility for their nondenomination. Additionally, they often run their “church” like a business, so their number one objective is new membership.

Also, good call on pointing out the differences between the theology of the 16th century reformers versus modern evangelicals/non-denoms.

I enjoy listening to Dr. David Anders on EWTN radio. His show is Called to Communion. He is a former Protestant and I find him to be intelligent, humble, and honest.

He once indicated that if you wanted to plant a quick seed, go with this line of questioning (you likely already know all this):

Catholic - how do you know the bible is the inspired word of God and that the canon of scripture contains the correct books?
Protestant - It speaks to me, or I feel it, or the Spirit tells me
Catholic - Yes but if you go by the bible alone, how do you know the entirety of what is inspired? The bible never says “this is the inspired word of God”, or even that “This is the gospel that was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John”. The publisher adds the title. Is it left up to every individual person’s assessment? No one can confirm that Luke actually wrote it.

He then indicated that the Protestant will often sneer and walk away. However, he indicated that a few come back later on to say they converted. They obviously realized that the canon was determined by the Catholic Church, in which case sola scriptura has no meaning.

Another good source is EWTN’s The Journey Home program (also found on YouTube). Converts to Catholicism tell their story. This may provide perspective.

In any event, I’m sorry you had to go through all that. It sounds like you are already well grounded in your Catholicism. As a silver lining, this experience may strengthen your appreciation for the church even more.
Thanks again, Matt. I’ll try to find Dr. Anders’s show, and I do know The Journey Home. I didn’t know that these people run their church as a business, but oh how it makes sense! The leader kept telling me he was “concerned for me,” which was really annoying. I brought up a logical argument; he’s “concerned for me,” because “you’re not heading what the Scriptures are plainly telling you.”

Sola scriptura does seem to be logically inconsistent, as I pointed out to him, but he just told me that I was not thinking it through myself. Every time I quoted one of the great Catholic and non-Catholic thinkers of history, he said that I was following “what that person is saying to you” and not “what Karl is saying to himself.” (He continually referred to me in the third person.)

No worries, I’ve moved past it, inspired by all the good words here, and I just know now about saying “no”!
 
Hey Brother, I’ve been there too. My Testimony I think you did great and just had the lousy luck to get stuck in like that.
Remember the following passage, okay? Matthew 10: 14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words—go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. 15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

The best advice I can offer is to just break it off and make it plain that you will not get involved with these 2 ever again without a sincere apology from the guy and even then I would decline any further interactions. You did your best and answered all their objections. I’d just (to borrow a line from Peter Tosh) “walk and don’t look back”.
Anyone who would do that to you, especially with someone who is clearly unstable like that is not someone you want to hang around with and you are within your rights to express that to that kid when next you talk to him. I would say something like … “Hey listen, I really don’t appreciate you dragging that guy into our discussions and I want you to know that is that’s what your religion makes people into then I certainly don’t anything to do with it because Jesus says in the New Testament says "By their fruits you shall know them." (Matthew 7:16) and those fruits are not Christ-like and I don’t need or want that.”

Yep, sure does. Ya just not know when to walk away and now you have some idea what to watch out for.
Thanks, CM! Great advice. The kid in my class said, “We just want you to be Christ-like” (which, in the way he said it, smacked of cultishness, to be honest), and noted that, if I saw him being “un-Christ-like,” to tell him. Arguably, I could let him know then how angry I was that those two were dragged into the meeting, and how his group leader wasn’t being “Christ-like” when he started going ballistic, but I just don’t want to speak with the kid ever again, besides perhaps monosyllables and vacuities. I will take those passages to heart, and I now know what to look out for, as you mentioned. Thanks again for all the kind words.
 
He needs your prayers.

I went to a Catholic university but I was a lapsed protestant/atheist at the time and I didn’t pay much attention to the “Catholic” events on campus.

One of my childhood friends is a Baptist and she and her congregation are openly virulently anti-Catholic, they don’t have a problem with coming out with it openly. I rented a room in her house while I was at university and she really disliked that I was becoming Catholic.

I stay away from her. It’s sad but I need to protect myself, my husband and our daughter from that. I don’t attack other people’s faith out of a matter of basic respect and good manners, I expect others to do the same.

Respectful debate, sharing of ideas, learning from each other I don’t mind.

I do pray for her though.
Thanks for your story. You wrote, “I don’t attack other people’s faith out of a matter of basic respect and good manners, I expect others to do the same.” Well, it’s exactly the same thing for me, of course, and I asked this church leader that. I said, “Isn’t it great that we have religious freedom, and you and I can disagree?” And he said, “No.” I said, “What?” He said, “No, it’s not great, because you’re on the path to…” I said, “You want everyone to be your religion and your denomination?” Apparently he did.

I’m going to pray for these people too. They need it.
 
OP, you handled it very well. :clapping:

Clearly a setup. They expected another sitting duck Catholic with no knowledge and they got the opposite. And the reaction was anger…hostility. And well, man’s wrath doesn’t accomplish God’s missions. The guy who snapped on you demonstrated that he lacks the fruit of the Spirit:

This should be a real eye opening experience for any discerning Christians who witnessed it. 🤷

Others have given good advice. Pray and avoid bad situations like that again. Dialogue is good, but if it’s one on one and with ground rules in place.
Thank you for your kind words and advice! “Clearly a setup. They expected…” This is exactly what my mother said too. I just think he never had anyone challenge him before. That’s why he kept saying that I just want to “respond, not listen.” I know now how bad it can get. I had read stories like that before, but I had never previously known it for myself. I come from a community where the different Protestants and Catholics all work together, like each other, etc., and it was the same way until this point here at BC, so this was quite a shock for me at an emotional rather than intellectual level.
I know now to keep far away from anyone who badgers me like this kid in class did. Problem is, he truly is a friendly person, but the set-up is–well, not unforgivable, perhaps, but certainly unforgettable.

Thanks again!
 
I disagree, I think you did fine. sometimes the lord expects us to defend the faith. even if the opponents do not receive it well. that’s hardly your fault.

remember all the Pharisees that were trying to constantly ambush Jesus with trick questions?

you mention your classmate is an ex-catholic. do you know his reasons for leaving? maybe he has some beef with the church that you just don’t know about. or he just doesn’t want to admit that he was wrong for leaving. and odds are he was poorly catechized

I always ask this question. does God expect all Christians to be literate? because if someone couldn’t read the bible for themselves, how would they know what the scriptures said? they would have to rely on someone else teling them, which would end up being that other person’s interpretation

so logical conclusion, those who can’t read go to hell. which of course, is ridiculous. there is simply no teaching that says you have ot read the bible yourself to go to heaven
Thanks for your so-kind words! You’re absolutely right, the Pharisees did try to stump Christ with all the trick questions. You’ve hit the nail on the head because he was continually throwing trick questions my way. I called him out on it at one point.

I don’t know about my classmate, and at this point I don’t want to ask him. He is half-Spanish and half-French, and those are (or were) very Catholic countries, so I wonder if there’s something there. I know for a fact that the church leader ambushing me, who was also an ex-Catholic, was terribly catechized: he knew nothing about the Church and had no idea that there were Masses in Latin!

Yours is a simply brilliant and brilliantly simple argument, and one that I should have thought of, especially when he was emphasizing that “you’ve just got to read it for yourself, man. You can’t rely on other people’s judgment. Karl’s got to know the plain meaning of Scripture for himself.” (The “plain meaning” being, of course, the meaning he wanted to give it!)

My only caveat is this: I don’t know if they were Calvinistic (we didn’t go that deep–they just couldn’t convince me that Scripture was the only source of authority and self-interpreting!), and I’ve got no desire to ask them, but, if they were, they could say that God has given the gift of being able to read and understand Scripture to those whom He has preordained to salvation. That opens up a whole other can of worms, of course.

Thanks again!
 
I would just like to say one thing. You are awesome!
Naw, I don’t think so, but thank you so very, very much. In all things, I just try to avoid conflict but, when it is inevitable, fight the good fight. Thanks again.
 
OP I would like to say that I think you did beautifully. I’m an Anglican and believe it or not, I’ve been similarly confronted about my faith (though it wasn’t nearly as bad as yours). Just remember that all their reaction means is that you had the better argument, and they just couldnt deal with that.
Thanks for that, Deus! Just to let you know, I’ve got the greatest respect for the beauty, reverence, and holiness of the Anglican tradition. I was happy finally to hunt down one of those “Ordinariate” parishes near where my school is, so I’m getting a little taste of the feel of Anglicanism. I completely believe you about your being confronted for the Christian faith; I’m sure it happens to all people from all denominations, but especially to those “high” ones (e.g., Roman Catholicism, High Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy). You’re right about their reaction and that they couldn’t deal with it. Thanks again!
 
You did a great job.

One thing I’ve found helpful in dealing with aggressive people like this is to come up with a rebuff and practice saying it ahead of time, possibly something like “Please leave me alone/stop harassing me.” Say nothing else, just keep repeating it and get away as quickly as you can. If he persists, tell him you consider his attempts as harassment and will take whatever steps are necessary to stop them.
Thanks! That is exactly what I should have done, but I had no idea going in that they’d be aggressive; I thought the kid from my class just really wanted to do a Bible study, one-on-one. (I knew he’d try to convert me, but I had no idea he’d bring along his church leaders–and, as I wrote elsewhere, when he did tell me they were coming along when we were in the lounge already, at the eleventh hour, he just said it was one person and not a church leader but his “friend”!) I know now never to get involved with this kind of thing again. But once more a sincere thank you!
 
Salzmank,

Wow I’m also a sophomore at university! 🙂 I think you handled the entire thing really well! When someone starts to scream in general, it means that they are panicking and that is their last resort. You did nothing wrong, and may I add it was also extremely smart of you to meet them in a lounge as opposed to your dorm room. I think it was really low of your class mate to purposely surprise you like this (calling his leaders ahead of time and not even mentioning it to you until you were in the lounge!).
 
Ditto here too. You sound so sweet I could hug you which was all I was thinking about wanting to do while reading your post. I’m sorry you had to go through that, but it sounds like you handled everything very well. Lets hope God will bring a lot of good out of it- for everyone- for people to possibly get even closer to God than they were before because of this…* How awesome would that be?!! * What if he is actually starting to think on things that were said! How cool would that be!!! :crossrc:🎉:extrahappy:

If people get into debates its not often for the love of truth or seeking the truth to mutually share as in the proverb “iron sharpens iron”. Its often to fight for their personal desire or goal, or to ‘win’. Its not really worth getting into then, unless you want to be the rooster crowing on top of the compost heap looking down on all the others. If that is what floats someone’s boat, just let them have the compost heap.
Gosh, all of you really are too kind! I hope God does bring good out of it for everyone. That would be wonderful, as you say. I’ve debated for a long time (I was on a mock trial team in high school), and I can tell you I’ve never met anyone like these people, though I know others like them exist. They don’t care one iota for the truth, whether I am correct or they are. They just care for “winning,” as you say, and probably making money from themselves if, as someone else mentioned, they run their church as a business. “I’m concerned for you,” the church leader kept saying. Oy! That was infuriating.

Thanks again for your too-kind words. Everyone here is in my prayers, as I hope I am in all of yours.
 
“After the first or second admonition reject”…Pray that God’s grace will work on his heart but don’t get drawn into an argument. That’s the trap.
True, but how I wish we could have a simple debate without its being a trap! And that, you’re absolutely correct, Joseph, is exactly what it is.
 
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