Need help with Tai Chi

[MtnDwellar]

Now you’ve made me angry. Take a second, genius, and read. Someone already acknowledged that you can, in theory, take any pantheistic religious art, remove all references to the pantheistic religion, and not be doing anything heretical. Congratulations, you’ve just preached to the converted.

The point is, how often is it the case that these things are taught with zero references to the spirituality that is inherent in the practice? It is very risky. In some cases it’s a no brainer: “CHI!!”. Tai CHI!! It’s in the NAME ITSELF for crying out loud!!! Chi is a pantheistic concept, my confused fellow monotheist!

As for your appeal to traditional priests doing this or that, that is fallacious logic! It’s called an inverse ad hominum. There are many “devout” priests who, without knowing they are wrong, practice things like centering prayer and trancendental meditation, which are heretical.

Why try to practice an eastern religious art without referencig the spiritual aspects when you could just as easily practice similar excercises that are NOT based on Pantheism?

As to your rant about wanting to see an official church document, it’s a strawman argument. Theology is theology. Some things are left to be handled by the local bishops. Again, trancendental meditation and centering prayer are not officially condemned in a church document. According to your argument, you believe that makes it ok to practice these pantheistic religious activities.

I’m sorry for being short, but this is just too much.

WOW!

I don’t know enough about Tai Chi to offer an opinion. BUT - you are great at arguing!

 

[4ever_Learn3r]

…(edited to save cyber space …

James, maybe this would help.
URL="http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?
For a start, do not confuse the word “chi” in Taichi to the word “chi” in chi kong. They are even pronounced differently in Chinese Mandarin. I don’t know if your PC actually recognized Chinese word.

I know what you are thinking about “chi”, about you are wrong. in chinese,
Taichi = 太极;(tai4 qi2) (literally means great extreme. When translate into English, it’s Supreme Ultimate or Ultimate Supreme)
chi = 气 (qi4) (literally means energy in both living things and non-living things, in other words, spirit.

Yes, Taichi is related to ancient Chinese religion such as Taoism and Confucianism. But just because those who religion use the word, it doesn’t mean anything.

By right, taichi by itself would only mean “Ultimate” (although the Chinese will never use this word anywhere to mean such this.
The Chinese (I am a Chinese ethnic myself, live in South East Asia region) generally use the word “taichi” to mean “taichi chuan” 太极拳(tai4 qi2 quan2) which literally means “Ultimate Fist”. Now, this is a form of martial art. Unlike the other typical type of “kung fu” which uses strength and speed, taichi is soft and slow, and people say that taichi usually bounce back opponent’s strength by it’s movement (I don’t know how, it’s a movement in arc. I had a friend in chinese martial art association who told me that kung fu doesn’t block enemy’s punch in the opposite direction like what you see in “dragon ball” or something, they simply deviate the force’s direction sideway. So this idea of tai chi chuan is to convert the force direction back maybe by arc movement, i don’t know).

So in conclusion, in my own opinion, Taichi, or taichi chuan in full, is just a martial art. As a Catholic myself, it is when the instructor ask you to “clear your mind, be one with the world, feel the energy movement around you, let your energy in you flow freely” that it’s against the Church’s teaching. This is because, when doing such meditation, you are relying on “energy” around the world for your good health.

Having said that, how does taichi chuan has to do with exercise? This is how. When you are practicing taichi chuan, you move slowly and pose in certain pose for a long time, which requires some muscle strength. try it, u will realize that you easily got tired because you use a lot of strength. But when it’s done without coach, you might hurt yourself maybe due to improper pose, just like going to gym without proper pose.

That’s all from me. sorry for long reply but I hope this will give people more understanding about what you guys usually call Taichi and simply condemn it as “New Age practice”, “New age meditation” without knowing what is it actually.

 

[miniquedoes]

hmmm just got through doing some searching and came across this

tcccommunity.net/uploads/TCCPhotoEssay_rec.feb2009.pdf

A quote from the page “Tai Chi Chih is a meditative practice that balances and circulates chi, the life energy that exists in all of us”

Also go through the website especially about the teacher training under “event photos” there are several pics with the instructors in front of white boards with ying yangs (and walls) and “energy” written down

How do you explain that?

 

[4ever_Learn3r]

hmmm just got through doing some searching and came across this

tcccommunity.net/uploads/TCCPhotoEssay_rec.feb2009.pdf

A quote from the page “Tai Chi Chih is a meditative practice that balances and circulates chi, the life energy that exists in all of us”

Also go through the website especially about the teacher training under “event photos” there are several pics with the instructors in front of white boards with ying yangs (and walls) and “energy” written down

How do you explain that?

Tai Chi Chih is not Tai Chi Chuan. don’t confuse with the word.
Tai Chi Chuan = ultimate fist, a form of martial art.
Tai Chi Chih = a form of exercise, but i don’t know how to explain any clearer.

I’ll that prayer an example. Prayer’s gesture, you put your hands together, either the fingers crossed each other or palms together. Now, that gesture in itself I don’t think it means anything. But in your mind, you can be talking to Christian God, or to Guan Ying God, or to “God of Prosperity”. People in Buddhist or Chinese Temple do the same prayer gesture as Catholics do. They kneel down, hands together. So I ask a question here, does that mean that gesture is forbidden in Catholic Church since those who pray to God of Prosperity also doing the same thing?

Again, let me stress, gesture by itself means nothing. It is the state of mind that you’re in. Some people practice Tai Chi Chih and they meditate in a way “empty your mind, feel the energy flow around you, be one with them” etc.

Wait, don’t become too “fundamentalist” here. Just because there’s a symbol of Yin Yang hanging on the world doesn’t mean it’s forbidden. It just sounds like other fundamentalist in my country saying the house shouldn’t have the picture of dragon when most Chinese are using the picture of dragon as decoration, the fundamentalists see it as the symbol of “evil” and against the Bible (refer to David’s and Revelation story).

and ah… i hope you read it until here.
Still, in Tai Chi Chi, there’s nothing about the word “Chi” (energy flow) here.
太 极 智 means “Ultimate Wisdom”. I think James thought that the word Chi in Tai Chi is the same as 气.

I don’t know much about Tai Chi Chih myself, but it could be that the ancient chinese believe that being able to merge with both negative and positive energy flow is one kind of knowledge. Just my speculation, I’m no master of Tai Chi or Tao religion. But one thing for certain, the word Tai Chi Chih never contains the word “Energy flow”

(and walls) and “energy” written down

sorry, i can’t find any word “energy” there. The word reads “Tai Chi”. 太 极 not, 太气.

 

[miniquedoes]

Tai Chi Chih is not Tai Chi Chuan. don’t confuse with the word.
Tai Chi Chuan = ultimate fist, a form of martial art.
Tai Chi Chih = a form of exercise, but i don’t know how to explain any clearer.

I’ll that prayer an example. Prayer’s gesture, you put your hands together, either the fingers crossed each other or palms together. Now, that gesture in itself I don’t think it means anything. But in your mind, you can be talking to Christian God, or to Guan Ying God, or to “God of Prosperity”. People in Buddhist or Chinese Temple do the same prayer gesture as Catholics do. They kneel down, hands together. So I ask a question here, does that mean that gesture is forbidden in Catholic Church since those who pray to God of Prosperity also doing the same thing?

Again, let me stress, gesture by itself means nothing. It is the state of mind that you’re in. Some people practice Tai Chi Chih and they meditate in a way “empty your mind, feel the energy flow around you, be one with them” etc.

Wait, don’t become too “fundamentalist” here. Just because there’s a symbol of Yin Yang hanging on the world doesn’t mean it’s forbidden. It just sounds like other fundamentalist in my country saying the house shouldn’t have the picture of dragon when most Chinese are using the picture of dragon as decoration, the fundamentalists see it as the symbol of “evil” and against the Bible (refer to David’s and Revelation story).

and ah… i hope you read it until here.
Still, in Tai Chi Chi, there’s nothing about the word “Chi” (energy flow) here.
太 极 智 means “Ultimate Wisdom”. I think James thought that the word Chi in Tai Chi is the same as 气.

I don’t know much about Tai Chi Chih myself, but it could be that the ancient chinese believe that being able to merge with both negative and positive energy flow is one kind of knowledge. Just my speculation, I’m no master of Tai Chi or Tao religion. But one thing for certain, the word Tai Chi Chih never contains the word “Energy flow”

sorry, i can’t find any word “energy” there. The word reads “Tai Chi”. 太 极 not, 太气.

Look at the pictures and see it written down. Thank you for trying to clarify but did you read what was written on the page about “inner chi.” I know there may be different forms of Tai Chi but what was shown seems the universal one taught to most elderly or whoever wants a form of low impact form of exercise. The problem is that most likely the movements are not being separated from the idea that they are done to balance their “life energy” Did you go to the website? Try going again if you did. I’m pretty sure that I am reading the paragraph correctly but maybe I could be wrong.

 

[Epistemes]

Now you’ve made me angry. Take a second, genius, and read. Someone already acknowledged that you can, in theory, take any pantheistic religious art, remove all references to the pantheistic religion, and not be doing anything heretical. Congratulations, you’ve just preached to the converted.

The point is, how often is it the case that these things are taught with zero references to the spirituality that is inherent in the practice? It is very risky. In some cases it’s a no brainer: “CHI!!”. Tai CHI!! It’s in the NAME ITSELF for crying out loud!!! Chi is a pantheistic concept, my confused fellow monotheist!

As for your appeal to traditional priests doing this or that, that is fallacious logic! It’s called an inverse ad hominum. There are many “devout” priests who, without knowing they are wrong, practice things like centering prayer and trancendental meditation, which are heretical.

Why try to practice an eastern religious art without referencig the spiritual aspects when you could just as easily practice similar excercises that are NOT based on Pantheism?

As to your rant about wanting to see an official church document, it’s a strawman argument. Theology is theology. Some things are left to be handled by the local bishops. Again, trancendental meditation and centering prayer are not officially condemned in a church document. According to your argument, you believe that makes it ok to practice these pantheistic religious activities.

I’m sorry for being short, but this is just too much.

Such a Christ-like answer, James. I’m all but swayed.

 

[Lynette77]

I also see Tai Chi as dangerous to Catholics.

the Church brought out a document called “Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of LIfe” to address some issues of the New Age from a Catholic point of view. See link below.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

 

[thistle]

I also see Tai Chi as dangerous to Catholics.

the Church brought out a document called “Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of LIfe” to address some issues of the New Age from a Catholic point of view. See link below.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

You are naive then. Tai Chi is not dangerous to Catholics. That is a ridiculous statement to make.
Oh and I read the document you attached, including the detailed glossary. As its your source please direct me to the part in the main document or the glossary that refers to Tai Chi or indeed any martial art because I couldn’t see anything even alluding to that.

 

[miniquedoes]

You are naive then. Tai Chi is not dangerous to Catholics. That is a ridiculous statement to make.
Oh and I read the document you attached, including the detailed glossary. As its your source please direct me to the part in the main document or the glossary that refers to Tai Chi or indeed any martial art because I couldn’t see anything even alluding to that.

Yes everyone is naive but you. We are not discussing other forms of martial arts just Tai Chi. I posted this link earlier maybe it would help to visit it yourself and then tell us what you think.

tcccommunity.net/uploads/TCCPhotoEssay_rec.feb2009.pdf

 

[James924]

Such a Christ-like answer, James. I’m all but swayed.

As I said, I’m sorry for being short. Your sarcasm, however, makes you a hypocrite.

 

[Epistemes]

As I said, I’m sorry for being short. Your sarcasm, however, makes you a hypocrite.

Temper temper.

 

[James924]

Temper temper.

That wasn’t necessary. You can stop now.

 

[Epistemes]

That wasn’t necessary. You can stop now.

Yes, you’re right. I apologize. Sincerely.

 

[kdq042007]

I have been reading with much interest the discourse about Tai Chi. Can the poster who states that the concept of the Chi, or energy, is pantheistic? I practice martial arts, have had personal expereinces of how energy scientifically moves through us as we interact with our surroundings. What is the source of this energy, which is very real? I agree that it is the state of mind and the focus that we have, and our intentions that make any activity godly or not. When I consider energy flow and “source” and that which moves around us, I have to consider that there may be more to my traditional understanding of the Spirit of God. My martial practice led me back to a faith in God, and a deeper understanding of the possibility of loving kindness that He represents; the offer of a relationship in ways beyond comprehension. Yoga and Tai Chi have eastern roots, but one should try to understand the culture and how an understanding of God has evolved there. I entered martial arts training a catholic thinking there was nothing more, and now continue in wonder, waiting in joyful hope for what comes next. Take Tai Chi; at the very least get some excellent excercise and flexibilty; at best allow your mind to be opened to the greatness God is.

Peace.

 

[beckycmarie]

The idea of chi or any other “universal energy” is not compatible with Christianity.

kdq042007:

What is the source of this energy, which is very real?

If it is not a figment of your imagination, then it is a demonic deception.

The quoted section below is from a book on New Age, and while this section deals with new age holistic health practices, what is said applies to the idea of universal energy in martial arts and yoga:

"Many involved in holistic health adopt a pantheistic view of energy which maintains that “we are not just independent blobs of energy, but an intimate part of the universal energy, the creative force of the universe, the universe consciousness, whose energy flows through us and unites us. While many in holistic health may wed this idea to modern physics to give it scientific credibility, the idea of God as impersonal, universal energy is ancient and has been called many names, such as prana and kundalini (Hindu), mana (used by Polynesian shamans, and *ch’i *(Taoism).”

Despite these positive aspects, the holism of much of holistic health is less than holy. While many involved in holistic health may not follow the idea that all is one and all is god, this is what is most often meant by holistic. The emphasis on “universal energy” betrays this worldview . . .] Ancient Chinese medicine such as acupuncture and acupressure is intimately connected to Taoism, an essentially monistic world view. Acupuncture and acupressure are designed to stimulate and balance energy flow and so harmonize one with the One or (Tao).

. . .]

**Clearly, the Christian cannot condone a vision of health rooted in spiritual deception. Whatever the efficacy of these various practices, the Christian must be careful to test the spirits to uncover unbiblical ideas (1 Jn 4:1). Christians realize that the spiritual realm is real but not uniformly benevolent. A host of rebellious spirits or demons can masquerade as agents of healing and health for the purpose of diverting attention from the Great Physician. **

Holistic health sometimes falls prey to the great lie that we are masters of our own destiny and lords of reality. While it is undoubtedly true that the Creator has wisely built into us natural processes of healing, we are all subject to moral and physical degeneracy because of sin. Holistic health tends to ignore the reality of the Fall and personal sinfulness and instead offers the hope of vibrant health and wholeness apart from reconciliation with a holy God through Jesus Christ.’

Source: Unmasking the New Age by Douglas R. Groothuis, p. 63, 66-67

 

[ThomasEugene]

i know a priest who introduces himself as a “priest, hermit, doctor of sacred theology and a tai-chi practitioner” and he has a blog actually and he was telling his readers that there’s a certain energy that surrounds his body, etc. etc.

from his blog:

Every day, after meditation and morning prayer in the prayer room, I go out at the back of the hermitage and practice Taichi. It is a very slow, fluid dance-like movement. The short Yang style usually lasts for 8 minutes. The long Yang style lasts 20 minutes. I can feel the flow of chi - a subtle electro-magnetic energy - in my body as I do it.
Taichi is considered as an internal style of martial arts, in contradistinction to the external style of martial arts (like Karate, taekwondo, etc.). Taichi is believed to have been developed by monks in the shaolin monasteries in China not just for self-defense but as a form of meditation. It is still being taught by Chinese monks in Taoists temples today.
This is what I like about taichi - **it is actually a contemplative activity **- a moving meditation. I actually first learned the external style of martial arts. As a seminarian and a young priest I studied martial arts for self-defense. I received a brown belt in Karate (Shorin Ryu) in 1985. I learned Taichi in Berkeley in 1989 and since then this is what I have been practicing for the last 20 years. I prefer Taichi to Karate because of its gentle and meditative dimension.
Taichi requires focusing one’s awareness on every movement, on the flow of chi in one’s body. The principle of Yin and Yang is manifested in the flow of each movement - the rhythm of hard and soft, of fullness and emptiness, of light and dark. This requires awareness of the present moment.
Like running, taichi is a holistic activity which involves the body and the mind. It generates energy. It can be used for self-defense when necessary and it can be very devastating. Yet it develops humility and compassion.
It will take a lifetime to fully understand and master Taichi.

i am very disturbed when i learned that he practices tai-chi. shall i alarm him?

 

[beckycmarie]

i know a priest who introduces himself as a “priest, hermit, doctor of sacred theology and a tai-chi practitioner” and he has a blog actually and he was telling his readers that there’s a certain energy that surrounds his body, etc. etc.

i am very disturbed when i learned that he practices tai-chi. shall i alarm him?

I would send him a message privately (not publicly on the comments section of his blog) and write it out of charitable concern for him and the readers of his blog, taking care that the message doesn’t sound like an attack. You might want to point him to relevant passages from the Vatican documents “Jesus Christ the bearer of the Water of Life” and “On Some Aspects of Christian Meditation,” and to the US Bishops’ recent letter about Reiki.

 

[kdq042007]

If it is not a figment of your imagination, then it is a demonic deception. (Quote).

If it is not my imagination, it must then, by necessity, be a demonic deception? Is a perception or experience then always going to be a figment of my imagination?

What then, is reality? What is wrong with looking at God holisticly?

 

[beckycmarie]

If it is not a figment of your imagination, then it is a demonic deception. (Quote).

If it is not my imagination, it must then, by necessity, be a demonic deception? Is a perception or experience then always going to be a figment of my imagination?

What then, is reality? What is wrong with looking at God holisticly?

Remember that our perceptions of things are not always reality. If the devil can appear as an angel of light, we might perceive something benevolent which is in fact evil. The devil can also appear as a “healing universal energy” if he so chooses, and has, with people who have been deceived by Reiki healing. See this account for an example.

I am not sure what you mean by “looking at God holistically.” We need to base our faith on the truth as revealed by Jesus Christ, and not look to non-Christian religions for an explanation of God.

 

[SANxJONERO]

I’m sure doing somethings in tai chi is ok, but not totally embracing it if you’re Catholic. I didn’t know much about it & thought it seemed kool, but then I learned about their beliefs & such. Also a word of advice is don’t be so quick to think somethings ok just cuzz a priest said so.