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[BlueEyedLady]

For what it’s worth, I don’t mind at all that atheists post on this website, so long as they are respectful toward our beliefs. Which you have always been, as far as I 've observed from your posts I’ve come across.

Just a comment about PP:

Their services are only free in the sense that the client who is unable to pay receives treatment at no personal cost. Being subsidized by Title X and Medicare however, means that other taxpayers who have no need of their services *are *paying them so that another can benefit. So in essence, Catholics and other religious who find that certain procedures which violate their religious beliefs - such as abortion - have no choice but to financially support those who seek these services.

That being said, I’m not sure I disagree with your other posts. If Catholics are required to support PP regardless of whether or not they violate Catholic teaching, why not take advantage of their services which are morally neutral?

Because of the way Title X is set up and all of the ridiculously complicated laws and accounting regulations on women’s health clinics I would not say that Catholics are not paying for abortion, but they are definitely funding birth control.

But that is part of living in a society where there are a diversity of beliefs and everyone gets to vote. I pay for a lot of things that I find morally repugnant for example-unjust and unnecessary military action, the death penalty, I subsidize private religious education that teach things that go against my values, I am supporting the meat and dairy industry, etc. But on the plus side I live in a nation where we are all allowed to have different values and to fight for them. So that means that while I’m funding someone else’s Catholic education, they’re funding my birth control, but the way I see it we could live in a country like Saudi Arabia where there is only one approved way of thinking, and I’ll take this any day.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

For what it’s worth, I don’t mind at all that atheists post on this website, so long as they are respectful toward our beliefs. Which you have always been, as far as I 've observed from your posts I’ve come across.

I try to be, but I know that everyone gets a bit out of hand on occasion. I’ve got to hold the record for most posts by an atheist on this site without being banned though. Heck, I haven’t even received an infraction!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I think that you have more of a problem with the FDA than you do with PP. All of the things that this link says that PP “claims” have actually been approved by the FDA. Low dose birth control and Plan B have all been deemed safe. Condoms of every brand have to meet federal regulations, and while some are better than others they all have to hit the threshold to be approved.

Not relevant. I have a problem with the FDA for other reasons. It has nothing to do with this issue. I have a root problem with PP because they are the largest provider of abortions, they lie about their treatment of women, they take some of my tax money, and the organization was founded by a racist white woman who wanted to wipe out minorities. That, you cannot deny, and neither does PP deny it. In fact, as I said before, they proudly give the Margaret Sanger Award every year.

 

[severus68]

I think a quote from Boswell’s Life of Johnson applies here: “There is a beautiful image in Bacon upon this subject : testimony is like an arrow shot from a long bow ; the force of it depends on the strength of the … Argument is like an arrow from a crossbow, which has equal force though shot by a child.”

The truth or falsehood of BEL’s arguments exist independently of her own beliefs, and such an ad hominem attack upon her is uncalled for.

Agreed.

 

[Pax2u]

Why is an atheist even on a catholic forum? Why is an atheist commenting on my post? I had a legitimate question, it got answered and resolved. Go bother someone who cares. BTW birth control causes cancer, it’s not safe. Plan B causes abortions, so that’s not safe either. NFP is the only effective birth control, I’ve learned this at 29 so it proves young people can do it too.

Praying for you and your wife, Brendenseth.

 

[brendenseth]

What the heck is going on around here??? I’ve been on this site for over a year and a half and in the last 24 hours I have had 3 different people publicly go off on me for being an atheist and tell me to quit posting. Was there an anti-atheist meeting that I wasn’t invited to where you all passed a resolution to chase us/me off of CAF? (One of the people who went off did later apologize, and all has been forgiven, but still, that leaves 2.)

For the most part everyone on this site is very kind, even when there are disagreements. I don’t think that I’ve been inflammatory or rude in the last 24 hours, so I really don’t get what’s going on.

No you haven’t been rude so to say, but the way you bring stuff up is rude. This is a good CATHOLIC forum, meaning everything discussed here goes with our faith. You disagreeing with our teaching on a CATHOLIC FORUM is rude.

 

[brendenseth]

Praying for you and your wife, Brendenseth.

Thank you!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

No you haven’t been rude so to say, but the way you bring stuff up is rude. This is a good CATHOLIC forum, meaning everything discussed here goes with our faith. You disagreeing with our teaching on a CATHOLIC FORUM is rude.

I think I’ll let the mods decide whether or not I should post something.

It’s well known on this site that I have a personal rule about arguing abortion and gay marriage though, because I do feel that that would be rude. I am open with how I feel about it but I refuse to derail threads and waste everyone’s time trying to change minds. I tell people to take that to my inbox. But you’ll notice that I did not advocate abortion, I only said that by taking advantage of their services to protect your wife you were not in ny mind supporting abortion. You asked for opinions on a public forum and you got them.

I get a lot of support from the regulars on these boards. Perhaps if you stick around your opinion that I’m rude will change.

 

[lerapt78]

But that is part of living in a society where there are a diversity of beliefs and everyone gets to vote. I pay for a lot of things that I find morally repugnant for example-unjust and unnecessary military action, the death penalty, I subsidize private religious education that teach things that go against my values, I am supporting the meat and dairy industry, etc. But on the plus side I live in a nation where we are all allowed to have different values and to fight for them. So that means that while I’m funding someone else’s Catholic education, they’re funding my birth control, but the way I see it we could live in a country like Saudi Arabia where there is only one approved way of thinking, and I’ll take this any day.

Yes, there are many services my tax dollars go to that I don’t approve of as well, but I see two major difference between the subsidization of PP versus that of Catholic schools (which for obvious reasons receive far less money per pupil than public schools).

#1: It is for the benefit of the entire society that our children be educated, whereas abortion cannot be proven to be beneficial to anyone but the persons seeking it and the doctors that charge for it. In addition, if Catholic school students are required to meet certain state-certified quotas (proficiency in reading and math skills, for example), then the funding they receive is in repayment of the selective course materials they are legally required to provide.

#2: Although you may not approve of certain projects the government elects to financially support, these certain programs do not violate the teachings of your religion. I, for example, do not support our current military endeavors either. But I can’t argue that the defense budget violates my religious beliefs, as this is my personal disapproval only. Respectively, as an atheist, you are more than welcome to disagree on the meat industry as a personal choice/matter as well. This is however an *individual *philosophical disagreement, and one which is not required to be adhered to by all atheists. You couldn’t, for example, say that your rights and beliefs as an atheist are being infringed upon when you fund the meat industry, for there is no single concensus among the atheist community regarding the matter.

With the issue of abortion, there is no room for debate - it is against the Catholic belief system period, so the absence of choice in government funding goes far beyond mere opposition from an intellectual or emotional standpoint.

I try to be, but I know that everyone gets a bit out of hand on occasion. I’ve got to hold the record for most posts by an atheist on this site without being banned though. Heck, I haven’t even received an infraction!

Well, here’s hoping you and I keep dodging the bullet!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yes, there are many services my tax dollars go to that I don’t approve of as well, but I see two major difference between the subsidization of PP versus that of Catholic schools (which for obvious reasons receive far less money per pupil than public schools).

#1: It is for the benefit of the entire society that our children be educated, whereas abortion cannot be proven to be beneficial to anyone but the persons seeking it and the doctors that charge for it. In addition, if Catholic school students are required to meet certain state-certified quotas (proficiency in reading and math skills, for example), then the funding they receive is in repayment of the selective course materials they are legally required to provide.

#2: Although you may not approve of certain projects the government elects to financially support, these certain programs do not violate the teachings of your religion. I, for example, do not support our current military endeavors either. But I can’t argue that the defense budget violates my religious beliefs, as this is my personal disapproval only. Respectively, as an atheist, you are more than welcome to disagree on the meat industry as a personal choice/matter as well. This is however an *individual *philosophical disagreement, and one which is not required to be adhered to by all atheists. You couldn’t, for example, say that your rights and beliefs as an atheist are being infringed upon when you fund the meat industry, for there is no single concensus among the atheist community regarding the matter.

With the issue of abortion, there is no room for debate - it is against the Catholic belief system period, so the absence of choice in government funding goes far beyond mere opposition from an intellectual or emotional standpoint.

Well, here’s hoping you and I keep dodging the bullet!

I’m not going to get into point #1 so much for the reason that I posted earlier. That crosses the line from talking about public policy into debating abortion and that’s not something I’m willing to do on the public forum. Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree that legal abortion has no value to society for a number of reasons. I would also argue the point that private religious education has much value either.

As for point #2 the SCOTUS has held that religious beliefs do not just encompass what one believes about a deity, for legal purposes any strongly held creed that one holds as a moral imperative gets the same legal consideration. That’s not to say that they are all protected, but neither are all religious beliefs (polygamy, animal sacrifice, etc). Interestingly enough it doesn’t matter if the faith that one practices is recognized by anyone else or society as a whole, all that matters is that the person believes it. (Think back to the case a couple of years ago where a 15 year old girl believed that her piercings were a spiritual practice but her school said she violated the dress code. The girl won,) So I could in effect combine my personal beliefs into a system of morality and call it religion. I don’t aspire to be a cult leader, so I don’t do that, but I could. But, even if that weren’t the case there are many people in this country for whom funding unjust war is a violation of their religion. Quakers, some Buddhists, some pagan faiths, and Jains are an example of this. There are people for whom funding the meat and dairy industry violates their beliefs, Jains, some Pagans, and some Hindus and Buddhists. There are even people who would want to defund any healthcare that relies on blood transfusions, but we don’t do that.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

whereas abortion cannot be proven to be beneficial to anyone but the persons seeking it and the doctors that charge for it.

Abortion is beneficial to NO ONE but especially not the women who seek it. Most often, they are coerced into having the abortion, they go through tremendous physical pain, and then they are destroyed from the inside out because their emotions about what has happened to them are totally discounted and denied. They are told that their “problem” has been solved and so they have nowhere to go with their grief and sadness. Many turn to drugs and/or alcohol, and some will have promiscuous sexual relations and even get pregnant again in order to “re-create” the lost child.

The doctors who do abortions have sold their souls for money and risk eternity in hell, so they cannot be said to benefit from abortion either.

 

[brendenseth]

Abortion is beneficial to NO ONE but especially not the women who seek it. Most often, they are coerced into having the abortion, they go through tremendous physical pain, and then they are destroyed from the inside out because their emotions about what has happened to them are totally discounted and denied. They are told that their “problem” has been solved and so they have nowhere to go with their grief and sadness. Many turn to drugs and/or alcohol, and some will have promiscuous sexual relations and even get pregnant again in order to “re-create” the lost child.

The doctors who do abortions have sold their souls for money and risk eternity in hell, so they cannot be said to benefit from abortion either.

Well said. Why have people lost all their common sense? This issue has ripped apart nations, why can’t people see that? Another reason besides this post I changed my mind is because every night after the baby goes to sleep, or in the car when were driving somewhere. We say a rosary, but we always use a rosary of the unborn. Often I look at the beads and the baby inside and I feel so sad. So I just want to reiterate what you said, NOBODY benefits from abortion.

 

[lerapt78]

I’m not going to get into point #1 so much for the reason that I posted earlier. That crosses the line from talking about public policy into debating abortion and that’s not something I’m willing to do on the public forum. Suffice it to say that I strongly disagree that legal abortion has no value to society for a number of reasons.

Fair enough - I was typing my reply as you were posting yours.

As for point #2 the SCOTUS has held that religious beliefs do not just encompass what one believes about a deity, for legal purposes any strongly held creed that one holds as a moral imperative gets the same legal consideration. That’s not to say that they are all protected, but neither are all religious beliefs (polygamy, animal sacrifice, etc). Interestingly enough it doesn’t matter if the faith that one practices is recognized by anyone else or society as a whole, all that matters is that the person believes it. (Think back to the case a couple of years ago where a 15 year old girl believed that her piercings were a spiritual practice but her school said she violated the dress code. The girl won,) So I could in effect combine my personal beliefs into a system of morality and call it religion. I don’t aspire to be a cult leader, so I don’t do that, but I could. But, even if that weren’t the case there are many people in this country for whom funding unjust war is a violation of their religion. Quakers, some Buddhists, some pagan faiths, and Jains are an example of this. There are people for whom funding the meat and dairy industry violates their beliefs, Jains, some Pagans, and some Hindus and Buddhists. There are even people who would want to defund any healthcare that relies on blood transfusions, but we don’t do that.

I suppose you could make a religion out of your beliefs, apply for non-profit status, and meet the requirements to have it formally recognized by the government. Practically speaking, I don’t know if the new religion’s tenets would qualify as exemptions from current laws if they conflict with them. I would assume that if someone said “In the new religion I just made up, it violates the adherent’s ethereal dignity to have taxes levied upon them” , the government would not honor the request. I don’t think it would be that simple for newly established religions but hey, one can always try.

As to the other religions, it would fall upon them to protest and request exemption from expenditures that they feel violate their principles. Yes, we can see where this goes, and it would indeed become a mess.

Abortion is beneficial to NO ONE but especially not the women who seek it. Most often, they are coerced into having the abortion, they go through tremendous physical pain, and then they are destroyed from the inside out because their emotions about what has happened to them are totally discounted and denied. They are told that their “problem” has been solved and so they have nowhere to go with their grief and sadness. Many turn to drugs and/or alcohol, and some will have promiscuous sexual relations and even get pregnant again in order to “re-create” the lost child.

The doctors who do abortions have sold their souls for money and risk eternity in hell, so they cannot be said to benefit from abortion either.

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m equally aware that there are far-reaching psycho-social effects from abortion that are usually not discussed by the pro-abortion crowd. But the benefits I refer to are very real to those people at the time of their decision. It can provide a *temporary *benefit, moral considerations notwithstanding.

 

[brendenseth]

Fair enough - I was typing my reply as you were posting yours.

I suppose you could make a religion out of your beliefs, apply for non-profit status, and meet the requirements to have it formally recognized by the government. Practically speaking, I don’t know if the new religion’s tenets would qualify as exemptions from current laws if they conflict with them. I would assume that if someone said “In the new religion I just made up, it violates the adherent’s ethereal dignity to have taxes levied upon them” , the government would not honor the request. I don’t think it would be that simple for newly established religions but hey, one can always try.

As to the other religions, it would fall upon them to protest and request exemption from expenditures that they feel violate their principles. Yes, we can see where this goes, and it would indeed become a mess.

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m equally aware that there are far-reaching psycho-social effects from abortion that are usually not discussed by the pro-abortion crowd. But the benefits I refer to are very real to those people at the time of their decision. It can provide a *temporary *benefit, moral considerations notwithstanding.

There is no temporary benefit, because of what happens to your soul. Letting your child be murdered is a very serious thing.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I understand what you’re saying, and I’m equally aware that there are far-reaching psycho-social effects from abortion that are usually not discussed by the pro-abortion crowd. But the benefits I refer to are very real to those people at the time of their decision. It can provide a *temporary *benefit, moral considerations notwithstanding.

No, you are not understanding. Again, if you actually talk to abortion-minded women, they will say, “My boyfriend wants the abortion,” or “My mom will kick me out if I don’t have the abortion.” Some of them are sex slaves, and are brought in by their pimps after they get pregnant from having paid sex with johns. Some seem to be willing, but in their hearts they know that they are growing a baby inside them and that that baby will be dead after the abortion. They don’t go in for the abortion laughing and smiling. Many look frankly terrified. They have been convinced by others that their “problem” will be over after the abortion but their inner reality is different.

Have you ever known anyone who has had an abortion?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

No, you are not understanding. Again, if you actually talk to abortion-minded women, they will say, “My boyfriend wants the abortion,” or “My mom will kick me out if I don’t have the abortion.” Some of them are sex slaves, and are brought in by their pimps after they get pregnant from having paid sex with johns. Some seem to be willing, but in their hearts they know that they are growing a baby inside them and that that baby will be dead after the abortion. They don’t go in for the abortion laughing and smiling. Many look frankly terrified. They have been convinced by others that their “problem” will be over after the abortion but their inner reality is different.

Have you ever known anyone who has had an abortion?

I’ve known 3, none of them were in any of those situations, and one was married.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’ve known 3, none of them were in any of those situations, and one was married.

I wasn’t actually asking you.

 

[brendenseth]

I’ve known 3, none of them were in any of those situations, and one was married.

Here you go butting in again, sure I know people that have had them too. One girl had like 8 of them, people use it as birth control does that make it right? To answer myself and you, NO it doesn’t. So are you an advocate for hitler? Are you racist?

 

[lerapt78]

No, you are not understanding. Again, if you actually talk to abortion-minded women, they will say, “My boyfriend wants the abortion,” or “My mom will kick me out if I don’t have the abortion.” Some of them are sex slaves, and are brought in by their pimps after they get pregnant from having paid sex with johns. Some seem to be willing, but in their hearts they know that they are growing a baby inside them and that that baby will be dead after the abortion. They don’t go in for the abortion laughing and smiling. Many look frankly terrified. They have been convinced by others that their “problem” will be over after the abortion but their inner reality is different.

Have you ever known anyone who has had an abortion?

I think I do understand the dangers you are trying to convey. You’re preaching to the choir, as I agree with your concerns, so everything you say resonates with me. Not everyone believes in the same things you and I do, however, so their perception of reality and “what’s good for them” may be very different than yours or mine. Certainly we try and correct their way of thinking, and introduce them to the Truth; it is not conceding to moral relativism to simply acknowledge that others don’t have the same level of understanding. You acknowledge it, and then you try to *change *it, because that understanding is wrong.

I think we may be conflating separate meanings of the word “benefit”. I am referring to the word in a neutral way, with “benefit” meaning an “advantage” (perhaps that should have been clarified in my post). Just as I could say that a bank robber has (technically) benefitted if he managed to steal $1M and evade capture. He has a financial advantage over his previous situation.

The girl whose boyfriend pressured her to abort may think that having him stick around is beneficial because she is getting something in return for her acquiescence. Sure, I can look at it from a different perspective and call her a fool for valuing a relationship with the type of man who would ask that of her. I could say that she’s better off without him, as he is not worth the spiritual damage to her soul. But if she’s a fool, or a very insecure and dependent sort of person, and she absolutely cannot conceive of how to deal with the devastation of being dumped by her boyfriend. . . . then the abortion will be seen as advantageous to her – for as long as he decides to stay, of course - regardless of what I think or know about the morality of the matter.

It is not so much that I think she is “happy” about getting an abortion (I don’t think any woman could be) – I would presume simply that she sees more value in holding onto whatever has been threatened by her pregnancy (be it a relationship, a secure family environment, a higher education, career opportunities, etc) than protecting the life within her. The thoughts of what she could have if she were not responsible for a child outweigh the concern over her state of grace. I assume this, because many women go ahead with the abortions anyway, despite their initial misgivings.

So when you speak of abortion not benefitting anyone in contradiction to my statement, you are doing so through the Catholic lens. You are quite correct, of course – morally speaking – but you are using your knowledge and understanding in order to make your perception someone else’s reality at the time. What I’m saying is that I can recognize that at some point in the woman’s reality she in fact *does *see it as the “better option”, regardless of whether it’s morally wrong. One can first acknowledge that she sees it as a benefit, and then try to show her the error of that thinking and eventually lead her to what is actually true.

I have known several women who have had abortions, but I’ve only gotten the background story from two of them.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I wasn’t actually asking you.

It doesn’t matter, the point stands that it isn’t hard to find strong, smart women who make their own choice to abort. I get being against it, but it’s really dishonest to discount the women who do decide for themselves or with their partners (frequently husbands) together as a team. If you want to change minds those are the people you have to target. The stats show that something like 1 in 4 women will have an abortion. Most of them are not victims and most don’t experience any sort of PTSD. When these women know firsthand what it’s like and you keep trying to tell them they’re broken you lose credibility. Argue it on moral grounds instead. It’s like the oral sex thread earlier today. Effects don’t determine morality and when you argue that they do people stop listening when facts and studies discredit what you’re saying.