Need help with this...

[brendenseth]

I’m not an advocate of abortion, I would never have one but they provide other services free or at reduced costs that serve a lot of people who don’t otherwise have access. Like I said in my first response if the OP can’t bring himself to go then he shouldn’t and I pray that they find the help they so desperately need at a place that meets his faith values and comfort zone. I do wonder if the wife is also uncomfortable or just the OP. I’m not advocating that his strong feelings not be taken into consideration but just a question.

Yes, my wife is very uncomfortable also. Thank you for everyones prayers, we have found a good therapist who also has her ph.d. We still have a long road ahead, at least everything is in the open now. Please continue to pray for us.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m not an advocate of abortion, I would never have one but they provide other services free or at reduced costs that serve a lot of people who don’t otherwise have access. Like I said in my first response if the OP can’t bring himself to go then he shouldn’t and I pray that they find the help they so desperately need at a place that meets his faith values and comfort zone. I do wonder if the wife is also uncomfortable or just the OP. I’m not advocating that his strong feelings not be taken into consideration but just a question.

This is something to be considered IMO

No, there are many other providers who can give better service than PP. The myth of them helping people for free is just that, a myth. Church-based organizations truly help people and don’t give abortions.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

No, there are many other providers who can give better service than PP. The myth of them helping people for free is just that, a myth. Church-based organizations truly help people and don’t give abortions.

That’s a lie. I received free pap smears and breast exams through PP for several years. No religiously based charity in the city I lived in provided that. I get being against abortion, but it doesn’t make sense to deny that they do other things that they actually do.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

That’s a lie. I received free pap smears and breast exams through PP for several years. No religiously based charity in the city I lived in provided that. I get being against abortion, but it doesn’t make sense to deny that they do other things that they actually do.

Agreed. There is not always an alternative that is conducive although I feel everyone has a right to care that meets not just their physical but also emotional and spiritual needs. I maintain that PP does is a legitimate service provider.

 

[JackieMom]

Saying that PP provides any benefit to society is like saying, “Well, at least people in Hell have access to adequate heating…”

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Saying that PP provides any benefit to society is like saying, “Well, at least people in Hell have access to adequate heating…”

I’m not saying that its wrong to be against PP. But when so many women with no where else to go use their non abortion services at a free or reduced cost saying that they don’t do any good hurts these women. When I was doing my undergrad and didn’t have health insurance they monitored me for cancer, treated my endometriosis, and referred me to counseling services for my depression. Without them I wouldn’t have had any other options. I am extremely grateful to them.

 

[JackieMom]

I’m not saying that its wrong to be against PP. But when so many women with no where else to go use their non abortion services at a free or reduced cost saying that they don’t do any good hurts these women. When I was doing my undergrad and didn’t have health insurance they monitored me for cancer, treated my endometriosis, and referred me to counseling services for my depression. Without them I wouldn’t have had any other options. I am extremely grateful to them.

Yeah, I simply don’t get that. Their “free” services are paid for in part by their business of terminating pregnancies. That’s their bread and butter, and why they lobby so vehemently against anything that would give a woman or girl second thoughts or another perspective regarding termination. There are always options that don’t include colluding with evil, even when the evil option is the most obvious.

Unfortunately, without the steady income from killing babies and free money from the government, it’s difficult for a religious group to offer low-cost medical care and counseling. Still, I’d go without before I colluded with Planned Parenthood. Going there would be like accepting food from the KKK food pantry.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Here are some facts about Planned Parenthood. Note, these are FACTS from either PP or the Guttmacher Institute, their research arm.

PP facts

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Yeah, I simply don’t get that. Their “free” services are paid for in part by their business of terminating pregnancies. That’s their bread and butter, and why they lobby so vehemently against anything that would give a woman or girl second thoughts or another perspective regarding termination. There are always options that don’t include colluding with evil, even when the evil option is the most obvious.

Unfortunately, without the steady income from killing babies and free money from the government, it’s difficult for a religious group to offer low-cost medical care and counseling. Still,** I’d go without before I colluded with Planned Parenthood**. Going there would be like accepting food from the KKK food pantry.

Nobody is putting a gun to your head to use PP. My issue is that people who need it who would rather have life saving treatments and screening than die without them should have that option.

You are right that its difficult for religious groups to offer low cost medical care and counseling, it is a real problem but until it gets solved people with cervical cancer and not insurance do what? People who are suicidal or non functioning due to depression do what? People who have a history of triple negative breast cancer and no other way of screening do what?

And BTW I don’t disagree with women having the OPTION of a different perspective prior to termination what I have an issue with is REQUIRING a 15 year old rape victim to see 3 sonograms after she has already come to a pain staking decision.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah, I simply don’t get that. Their “free” services are paid for in part by their business of terminating pregnancies. That’s their bread and butter, and why they lobby so vehemently against anything that would give a woman or girl second thoughts or another perspective regarding termination. There are always options that don’t include colluding with evil, even when the evil option is the most obvious.

Unfortunately, without the steady income from killing babies and free money from the government, it’s difficult for a religious group to offer low-cost medical care and counseling. Still, I’d go without before I colluded with Planned Parenthood. Going there would be like accepting food from the KKK food pantry.

You should consider yourself lucky that you don’t have to make that choice.

I’m also going to say that abortion is not their “bread and butter”. Even the incredibly biased link that TRJ posted stated that in 2011-2012 PP only received $150 million from abortion and $542 million from the federal government. The abortion figure is skewed because they assumed that every woman paid full price for an abortion, and because they do reduce the cost based on income, although it is impossible to get a free abortion, that number would go down. Now add in state and local funding, grants from other organizations and charities, donations from private individuals that they collect year round, etc. and abortion revenue is actually very small. It isn’t the money from abortion that makes them wealthier than religious organizations, it’s how well organized they are and the diversity of services that they provide.

I am not trying to convince anyone to be for Planned Parenthood. The organization doesn’t need me to advertise for it. But what I am saying is that when people make statements about how PP doesn’t do X, offer X, or do anyone any good at a free or reduced cost it hurts the chances of another organization forming to fulfill the needs of women without providing abortions. The last thing we need are more Birthright clinics. If people want an alternative to PP they are going to have to admit that it helps an enormous amount of women and men and take what is good about the organization while excluding abortion. Saying that everything they do is evil is alarming to those of us who need or have needed their services.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Here are some facts about Planned Parenthood. Note, these are FACTS from either PP or the Guttmacher Institute, their research arm.

PP facts

I think that you have more of a problem with the FDA than you do with PP. All of the things that this link says that PP “claims” have actually been approved by the FDA. Low dose birth control and Plan B have all been deemed safe. Condoms of every brand have to meet federal regulations, and while some are better than others they all have to hit the threshold to be approved.

 

[brendenseth]

I think that you have more of a problem with the FDA than you do with PP. All of the things that this link says that PP “claims” have actually been approved by the FDA. Low dose birth control and Plan B have all been deemed safe. Condoms of every brand have to meet federal regulations, and while some are better than others they all have to hit the threshold to be approved.

Why is an atheist even on a catholic forum? Why is an atheist commenting on my post? I had a legitimate question, it got answered and resolved. Go bother someone who cares. BTW birth control causes cancer, it’s not safe. Plan B causes abortions, so that’s not safe either. NFP is the only effective birth control, I’ve learned this at 29 so it proves young people can do it too.

 

[heidi_storage]

Why is an atheist even on a catholic forum? Why is an atheist commenting on my post? I had a legitimate question, it got answered and resolved. Go bother someone who cares. I don’t even know why the forums let you people on here, being an atheist is not a religion!

I think a quote from Boswell’s Life of Johnson applies here: “There is a beautiful image in Bacon upon this subject : testimony is like an arrow shot from a long bow ; the force of it depends on the strength of the … Argument is like an arrow from a crossbow, which has equal force though shot by a child.”

The truth or falsehood of BEL’s arguments exist independently of her own beliefs, and such an ad hominem attack upon her is uncalled for.

 

[JackieMom]

You should consider yourself lucky that you don’t have to make that choice.

I’m also going to say that abortion is not their “bread and butter”. Even the incredibly biased link that TRJ posted stated that in 2011-2012 PP only received $150 million from abortion and $542 million from the federal government. The abortion figure is skewed because they assumed that every woman paid full price for an abortion, and because they do reduce the cost based on income, although it is impossible to get a free abortion, that number would go down. Now add in state and local funding, grants from other organizations and charities, donations from private individuals that they collect year round, etc. and abortion revenue is actually very small. It isn’t the money from abortion that makes them wealthier than religious organizations, it’s how well organized they are and the diversity of services that they provide.

I am not trying to convince anyone to be for Planned Parenthood. The organization doesn’t need me to advertise for it. But what I am saying is that when people make statements about how PP doesn’t do X, offer X, or do anyone any good at a free or reduced cost it hurts the chances of another organization forming to fulfill the needs of women without providing abortions. The last thing we need are more Birthright clinics. If people want an alternative to PP they are going to have to admit that it helps an enormous amount of women and men and take what is good about the organization while excluding abortion. Saying that everything they do is evil is alarming to those of us who need or have needed their services.

Yeah… I really don’t see it that way. There is always state insurance for very low-income women. Here in CA we have Medi-Cal, Healthy Families, AIM, as well as private religious groups that can sometimes hook women up with doctors and counselors. There is really no need for anyone to get health care from a PP. And while government subsidies do support the bulk of what PP perpetrates, abortion is the “service” that brings in the most actual income.

I honestly do not believe that any woman has ever been or could possibly be helped at a PP. If you have to sell your soul to the Devil himself to get your free birth control pills or your low cost counseling (which Catholic Charities provides in every state already), have you really been helped? It may appear so at first, but the true cost is so intensely grave. I don’t get how women don’t see the siren song of cheap pap smears and free Depo Provera for what it really is - a way to cheaply legitimize the biggest abortion business in the US.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah… I really don’t see it that way. There is always state insurance for very low-income women. Here in CA we have Medi-Cal, Healthy Families, AIM, as well as private religious groups that can sometimes hook women up with doctors and counselors. There is really no need for anyone to get health care from a PP. And while government subsidies do support the bulk of what PP perpetrates, abortion is the “service” that brings in the most actual income.

I honestly do not believe that any woman has ever been or could possibly be helped at a PP. If you have to sell your soul to the Devil himself to get your free birth control pills or your low cost counseling (which Catholic Charities provides in every state already), have you really been helped? It may appear so at first, but the true cost is so intensely grave. I don’t get how women don’t see the siren song of cheap pap smears and free Depo Provera for what it really is - a way to cheaply legitimize the biggest abortion business in the US.

From 2009-2012 I lived in St. Louis, MO. It’s a very poor city in a very poor state. Private religious groups had months long waiting lists, and state insurance is very selective. Because I was a full-time student I did not qualify. Even my campus health center wanted to charge me more than I could afford and sent me to PP.

Even birth control aside it’s important that women get pap smears. STD testing and treatment is vital. This is not a way to legitimize abortion, it is a way to keep people healthy. And until another organization has the will and the means to step up and provide these services, especially in impoverished city areas and rural areas with little health care available PP will always be necessary for a subset of people who are in a very bad financial position.

I just don’t understand complaining about someone receiving important preventative care or treatment if there really is no other viable option. Expecting poor women (and men, they do testicular cancer screenings and STD testing for men too) to go without these non abortion services because you are against abortion is just sad.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Why is an atheist even on a catholic forum? Why is an atheist commenting on my post? I had a legitimate question, it got answered and resolved. Go bother someone who cares. BTW birth control causes cancer, it’s not safe. Plan B causes abortions, so that’s not safe either. NFP is the only effective birth control, I’ve learned this at 29 so it proves young people can do it too.

What the heck is going on around here??? I’ve been on this site for over a year and a half and in the last 24 hours I have had 3 different people publicly go off on me for being an atheist and tell me to quit posting. Was there an anti-atheist meeting that I wasn’t invited to where you all passed a resolution to chase us/me off of CAF? (One of the people who went off did later apologize, and all has been forgiven, but still, that leaves 2.)

For the most part everyone on this site is very kind, even when there are disagreements. I don’t think that I’ve been inflammatory or rude in the last 24 hours, so I really don’t get what’s going on.

 

[JackieMom]

From 2009-2012 I lived in St. Louis, MO. It’s a very poor city in a very poor state. Private religious groups had months long waiting lists, and state insurance is very selective. Because I was a full-time student I did not qualify. Even my campus health center wanted to charge me more than I could afford and sent me to PP.

Even birth control aside it’s important that women get pap smears. STD testing and treatment is vital. This is not a way to legitimize abortion, it is a way to keep people healthy. And until another organization has the will and the means to step up and provide these services, especially in impoverished city areas and rural areas with little health care available PP will always be necessary for a subset of people who are in a very bad financial position.

I just don’t understand complaining about someone receiving important preventative care or treatment if there really is no other viable option. Expecting poor women (and men, they do testicular cancer screenings and STD testing for men too) to go without these non abortion services because you are against abortion is just sad.

I don’t expect that, but I do expect anyone who opposes abortions to figure out an alternative. I don’t see how there is any wiggle room for a Catholic to ultilize PP in any capacity, no matter the personal hardship. And I feel sorry that anyone believes that PP perpetrates anything but evil.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t expect that, but I do expect anyone who opposes abortions to figure out an alternative. I don’t see how there is any wiggle room for a Catholic to ultilize PP in any capacity, no matter the personal hardship. And I feel sorry that anyone believes that PP perpetrates anything but evil.

See, and I’m interested in what you have to say for this reason. Although I am a huge supporter of Planned Parenthood and I’m pro-choice I think that it would be very beneficial for Planned Parenthood to split into two separate entities. (This is already kind of the case with the regular versus Title X clinics, but I want more.)

I know that the compromise wouldn’t be perfect because there is a small portion of the public that is against birth control, but it is a very small group and we live in a pluralistic society. But what I think should happen is that there should be a PP-esque organization that provides all of the services PP currently offers minus abortion. That means birth control, pap smears, breast exams (I want to see mammograms added), testicular exams, STD testing and treatment, and counseling.

Then another organization should take over the abortion aspect. These should be two completely different organizations with different accounts and different management. That way they could be addressed by the public and by the legislature in a less extreme manner by both sides of the abortion debate. Pro-choicers get more extreme when PP is attacked because they see a lot of important services being thrown out the window, and pro-lifers get more extreme when they hear of PP being funded or supporting _____ because all they think of is abortion. I really think this compromise would go a long way towards improving the dialogue and rhetoric surrounding these issues.

If it would make the OP and you feel any better, by taking advantage of their services for free you are siphoning money that might otherwise go towards something you find immoral. I’m joking. I actually did see that argument on this site from a Catholic who was supporting the use of PP in extreme situations, but I do fully understand why it may not be seen as acceptable.

 

[lerapt78]

What the heck is going on around here??? I’ve been on this site for over a year and a half and in the last 24 hours I have had 3 different people publicly go off on me for being an atheist and tell me to quit posting. Was there an anti-atheist meeting that I wasn’t invited to where you all passed a resolution to chase us/me off of CAF? (One of the people who went off did later apologize, and all has been forgiven, but still, that leaves 2.)

For the most part everyone on this site is very kind, even when there are disagreements. I don’t think that I’ve been inflammatory or rude in the last 24 hours, so I really don’t get what’s going on.

For what it’s worth, I don’t mind at all that atheists post on this website, so long as they are respectful toward our beliefs. Which you have always been, as far as I 've observed from your posts I’ve come across.

Just a comment about PP:

Their services are only free in the sense that the client who is unable to pay receives treatment at no personal cost. Being subsidized by Title X and Medicare however, means that other taxpayers who have no need of their services *are *paying them so that another can benefit. So in essence, Catholics and other religious who find that certain procedures which violate their religious beliefs - such as abortion - have no choice but to financially support those who seek these services.

That being said, I’m not sure I disagree with your other posts. If Catholics are required to support PP regardless of whether or not they violate Catholic teaching, why not take advantage of their services which are morally neutral?

 

[lerapt78]

Then another organization should take over the abortion aspect. These should be two completely different organizations with different accounts and different management. That way they could be addressed by the public and by the legislature in a less extreme manner by both sides of the abortion debate. Pro-choicers get more extreme when PP is attacked because they see a lot of important services being thrown out the window, and pro-lifers get more extreme when they hear of PP being funded or supporting _____ because all they think of is abortion. I really think this compromise would go a long way towards improving the dialogue and rhetoric surrounding these issues.

That’s a reasonable argument. I would naturally be in favor of cutting 100% government funding to the side that performs abortions, meaning they would have to rely on funding from their customers and/or private donations. I don’t think this would ever happen, but it would be an option that I think most Catholics would find to be something of an appeasement.

If it would make the OP and you feel any better, by taking advantage of their services for free you are siphoning money that might otherwise go towards something you find immoral. I’m joking. I actually did see that argument on this site from a Catholic who was supporting the use of PP in extreme situations, but I do fully understand why it may not be seen as acceptable.

See, I don’t see why this wouldn’t be acceptable. I think of the analogy of mass media: My cable provider may host programs that support and promote immoral concepts (MTV, etc), but I see no conflict in paying for a subscription so that I can watch the news, weather channel, national geographic, HGTV, etc.