Need hymn suggestions for funeral mass

[benedictgal]

I’m wrong about what exactly? Do the math…they are written by mostly catholic composers…there are only a few from CCLI

I have not “ignored” anything. Stop with the emotional insults B-Gal. I’m merely stating facts here,. I haven’t argued ANYTHING for the use of the liturgy. You are bringing in arguments here that don’t belong.

I was arguing the lyrics were scriptural…simply that, nothing else. You are the one that brought in the arugment about suitable for the liturgy. I wasn’t talking about that at all.

And as I said before, CCLI stuff , mostly, is not against Catholic doctrine. I stand by that too.

Really? Then, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist list the music used for “youth Masses” as problematic and called it one of the shadows that plague the Church? I’m not emotional, just calling it like it is.

Furthermore, Michael W. Smith is not a Catholic composer, not by a long shot. Nor are many of the composers of Sporit and Song and its sister songbook.

The problem is that OCP does not have any ecclesial authorityi to push what it sells. Many, many of their songs are problematic and are not at all suitable for Mass. Most of their compositions focus on the horizontal, rather than on the vertical. Spirit and Song is loaded with songs of that nature. These songs make us the focus and we are, therefore, celebrating ourselves. Furthermore, they take excessive liberties with the Ordinary of the Mass, especially in Spanish.

Therefore, most of what OCP has in its stable wouldn’t be fit to use for a funeral Mass or any other liturgy, for that matter.

 

[agapewolf]

Really? Then, why did the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist list the music used for “youth Masses” as problematic and called it one of the shadows that plague the Church? I’m not emotional, just calling it like it is.

Furthermore, Michael W. Smith is not a Catholic composer, not by a long shot. Nor are many of the composers of Sporit and Song and its sister songbook.

The problem is that OCP does not have any ecclesial authorityi to push what it sells. Many, many of their songs are problematic and are not at all suitable for Mass. Most of their compositions focus on the horizontal, rather than on the vertical. Spirit and Song is loaded with songs of that nature. These songs make us the focus and we are, therefore, celebrating ourselves. Furthermore, they take excessive liberties with the Ordinary of the Mass, especially in Spanish.

Therefore, most of what OCP has in its stable wouldn’t be fit to use for a funeral Mass or any other liturgy, for that matter.

Yet you still haven’t proven my points wrong. M.W.S (if at all) is only a few songs in Spirit and song. If you do the math, as I’ve said so many times before, you will see that the majority of the composers are Catholic. do the math. Only a few.

Most CCLI lyrics do NOT go against Catholic doctrine. Maybe the style does not fit with the documents you are quoting, but that IS NOT AGAINST DOCTRINE. I’m not talking about OCP pushing anything. I’m talking about scriptural lyrics, again, STICK TO THE POINTS AT HAND.

 

[benedictgal]

Yet you still haven’t proven my points wrong. M.W.S (if at all) is only a few songs in Spirit and song. If you do the math, as I’ve said so many times before, you will see that the majority of the composers are Catholic. do the math. Only a few.

Most CCLI lyrics do NOT go against Catholic doctrine. Maybe the style does not fit with the documents you are quoting, but that IS NOT AGAINST DOCTRINE. I’m not talking about OCP pushing anything. I’m talking about scriptural lyrics, again, STICK TO THE POINTS AT HAND.

I am also speaking to what is appropriate for the Mass. Lyrics are not the only equation in this factor, agapewolf, I’m not talking fuzzy math as was referenced to in a previous presidential campaign. The components of lyrics and musical style must work together.

They both have to fit the norms established by the documents. You have yet to refute why the Synod Fathers found the music at Youth Masses problematic to the point that they were one of the shadows listed.

The bottom line is that most, if not all, of the stuff in Spirit and Song is not suitable at all for the Mass. Maybe it may work for a rally, but, not for the Mass. The Church has her standards for sacred music that is fitting for use in the Mass, whether funeral, nuptial or Sunday Eucharist. No matter how much OCP and its proponents try to push it, the CCU is not at all fitting for the Mass.

 

[agapewolf]

I am also speaking to what is appropriate for the Mass. Lyrics are not the only equation in this factor, agapewolf, I’m not talking fuzzy math as was referenced to in a previous presidential campaign. The components of lyrics and musical style must work together.

They both have to fit the norms established by the documents. You have yet to refute why the Synod Fathers found the music at Youth Masses problematic to the point that they were one of the shadows listed.

The bottom line is that most, if not all, of the stuff in Spirit and Song is not suitable at all for the Mass. Maybe it may work for a rally, but, not for the Mass. The Church has her standards for sacred music that is fitting for use in the Mass, whether funeral, nuptial or Sunday Eucharist. No matter how much OCP and its proponents try to push it, the CCU is not at all fitting for the Mass.

And I wasn’t talking about that…seeing as how I intruduced the point…

you called it “protestant praise and worship”. I refuted that term, and will do so again. Just because it is written by a protestant does NOT mean it should be called “protestant praise and worship”. because most do not go against catholic doctrine…period. I’m not talking about use in the mass

I’m also sticking by the fact that there hardly ANY CCLI songs in Spirit and song. They are mostly catholic composers. You are wrong.

 

[benedictgal]

And I wasn’t talking about that…seeing as how I intruduced the point…

you called it “protestant praise and worship”. I refuted that term, and will do so again. Just because it is written by a protestant does NOT mean it should be called “protestant praise and worship”. because most do not go against catholic doctrine…period. I’m not talking about use in the mass

I’m also sticking by the fact that there hardly ANY CCLI songs in Spirit and song. They are mostly catholic composers. You are wrong.

Maybe Catholic, in name only (like OCP), but, certainly not in priniciple. Might I refer you to what the documents say about music:

1. It should be borne in mind that the true solemnity of liturgical worship depends less on a more ornate form of singing and a more magnificent ceremonial than on its worthy and religious celebration, which takes into account the integrity of the liturgical celebration itself, and the performance of each of its parts according to their own particular nature. To have a more ornate form of singing and a more magnificent ceremonial is at times desirable when there are the resources available to carry them out properly; on the other hand it would be contrary to the true solemnity of the Liturgy if this were to lead to a part of the action being omitted, changed, or improperly performed.

There is nothing ornate nor solemn about the stuff in any of OCP’s songbooks, no matter how hard you try to fit this square peg into a round hole.

Furthermore, Pope John Paul II notes in his Chirograph on sacred music:

have also stressed the need to “purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated”[10], to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions.

In this perspective, in the light of the Magisterium of St Pius X and my other Predecessors and taking into account in particular the pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council, I would like to re-propose several fundamental principles for this important sector of the life of the Church, with the intention of ensuring that liturgical music corresponds ever more closely to its specific function.

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “***not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, ***my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

I commend and applaud the OP for his selections for his late grandfather-in-law. Although not a Catholic, he tried to follow the documents as best he could. I can’t say the same thing for OCP.

 

[agapewolf]

I guess the fact that I’ve said “I’m not talking about using it at mass” abotu 6 times so far has been completely ignored.

That is quite a judgement to say that the Catholic composers of that music are in “name only”. I know many of them personally. Thats a major attack on them. Most of their lyrics do NOT go against church doctrine.

and again. I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT USE IN THE MASS!!!

 

[benedictgal]

I guess the fact that I’ve said “I’m not talking about using it at mass” abotu 6 times so far has been completely ignored.

That is quite a judgement to say that the Catholic composers of that music are in “name only”. I know many of them personally. Thats a major attack on them. Most of their lyrics do NOT go against church doctrine.

and again. I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT USE IN THE MASS!!!

The thread is about selecting music for a funeral Mass.

Furthermore, while the lyrics may be scriptually based, the settings are not in keeping with the norms the Church has set forth. Just because you know them doesn’t make what they are doing right.

You have yet to provide any authoritative documentation from the Holy See to justify your position. You are only relying on “feelings” and not on substantial material from the Congreation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments that oversees the liturgy.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic, everyone. Take side issues/discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you all.