Need ladies' input

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Married (or why not—even single----and bonus why not—if you men want to chime in too) ladies. Could I get your (name removed by moderator)ut? In the order of men and women, what do you think are the “gifts” that you each can offer the other in a married relationship?

How do some of you understand the text on submissiveness for women/men must give their lives for the woman in Ephesians 5:22-33 and 1 Cor 11:3-16.

What would you say to a single woman who is cynical about men being heads of households and would reject a woman taking a man’s last name on the grounds that women have the babies and men tend to do less in the order of chores, or so she says…

I feel like there is a way to express our gifts such that this young lady will understand that the Church is more pro-woman than any institution.
 
Well considering I’m an ardently anti-feminist, traditional woman who so longs for some of the morals brought to us by the Victorian era, I’m probably a horrid person to support your cause.

First let me say before anything else that I DO believe men and women are equal, but NOT THE SAME. An orange may weigh the same as an apple but you sure wouldn’t make an Americana pie with it.

The Bible says women should submit unto their husbands, but also that men should cherish and lovbe their wives as God loves his church. In my life pre marriage and now, it’s a very clear answer to me and my man. I DO believe men should be the heads of the household. Plain and simple. men are stronger and more emotionally quipped, most times for such leadership.

In our relationship, John is without a doubt the pants wearer. I plan my schedule, my work, and my schooling around his work schedule. As the main provider for our family it’s far more important for me to arrange my day to best support him. he works 4-12 pm, which works for us night owls, but presented a work dilema for me. I was the main openor for the store I worked at, but now work closing. I don’t enjoy working closing, but I find it fulfilling knowing it’s much beter for our family. If I worked opening and was still getting up at 5 am and working till 1 pm, i’d not only rarely see my husband, but he’d come home to a sleeping wife, no dinner hot, no way to unwind. As his wife, I feel it’s my duty to be there when he gets home.

I know very well that he is stronger than i, and in most areas more knowledgable, stable and capable than I. I feel he’s more apt to make financial decisions and big plans for our family, and I’m ok with this. In fact, I wouldn’t like it any other way.

I’m subserviant by nature. We hope when we start having children, we’ll be able to afford me to stay home with the children. We feel this is just the way it’s suppose to be.

It works both ways, mind. Though he is the households head and my loving guide and leader, he never makes major decisions without my (name removed by moderator)ut. He’s so careful to make sure what he does benefits me and what i need and want as well as him.

I’m rambleing.

To this woman, i would say this. Why do you feel tha thousehold chores are so paramount to anything? men work and work hard. Manual labor is some of the most physically draining work you can do, and it’s a field rightfully dominated by men. Her mind has been warped by too many years of feministic lies and half truths. I would love her to read The War Against Boys.
 
What would you say to a single woman who is cynical about men being heads of households and would reject a woman taking a man’s last name on the grounds that women have the babies and men tend to do less in the order of chores, or so she says…
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First I would say

1-'Only a very controlling and manipulative man would constantly remind women the man is the head of the household. A nice guy knows how to take charge without disrespecting his wife. The main part of those quotes were about men loving their wives so she can be happy. If all men loved women the way God loves the church the feminist movement never would have came about. Women woudln’t have needed equal rights because men would have instinctly treated as equals in the first place

Being the head of the household does not mean the man always gets his way. It means the man always takes responsibility to do what is best for his family. For example, if the rent is due and the man’s friends are all going out on the town, as the head of the houshold he pays the rent and tells his friends he has no money to join them.

2- A previous poster said she preferred her husband to make all financial decisions because he was smatter than her. Fair enough but I am very smart about interest rates and market prices so a man would literally have to be a genius in that matter for me to blindly trust him. However, I know absolutely nothing about house repairs. I barely know the difference between a hammer and a screwdriver so I would LOVE to have a man to take on all those chores.

3-) Of course a woman should keep her own name. If a woman truly wants to change her name that is her choice and I respect her decision. But nothing annoys me more than a bunch of married woman complaining ‘I had to change my name because that was expected of me’. If keeping her name means that much to a woman she should have the backbone to do it. A lot of latino cultures are very Catholic and they always had 2 last names were the husband took on one of the wife’s name and vice versa. This was way before the feminist movement. Marriage should not mean a woman throws away her identity and becomes a possession

CM
 
Married (or why not—even single----and bonus why not—if you men want to chime in too) ladies. Could I get your (name removed by moderator)ut? In the order of men and women, what do you think are the “gifts” that you each can offer the other in a married relationship?

How do some of you understand the text on submissiveness for women/men must give their lives for the woman in Ephesians 5:22-33 and 1 Cor 11:3-16.

What would you say to a single woman who is cynical about men being heads of households and would reject a woman taking a man’s last name on the grounds that women have the babies and men tend to do less in the order of chores, or so she says…

I feel like there is a way to express our gifts such that this young lady will understand that the Church is more pro-woman than any institution.
The text on submissiveness was written at a different time, and for a different people. Women were second class citizens, they weren’t allowed to do anything without a male figure permitting them to do so. They weren’t allowed to own property, and they had no choice but to get married because they couldn’t do anything else. In a nutshell, they were treated like children and property. Our culture has evolved over time, and so has the role of women. Some women yearn for that text that you cite. Others want nothing to do with it. It’s a big enough world for both to co-exist. I am one of those who wants nothing to do with that text. Marriage, to me, is (among other things) a partnership and both parties have to cooperate. Some decisions will be in favor of the husband, some the wife. But they should be agreed upon by both.

With regards to a woman rejecting her husband’s name and retaining her maiden name…the Church says nothing about that, and I really have no opinion of it. In some cultures, the woman’s family name is kept. In other cultures, the man’s family name is kept. In the US, it depends on the individual. Many keep their maiden name and add their married name to it.
 
I love that the husband is the head of the wife and family! It is hard sometimes in practice, because I am awfully strong-willed… It’s something I have to continually work on. But my husband also clearly works on what he sees as his mission: to love and lay down his life for me.

As man and woman, and in our personalities, my husband and I complement each other perfectly. The gifts he brings to the marriage are stability, calm thinking, proficiency in mechanics and finances, an easy-going, rarely-stressed nature, and an earnest desire to provide for my happiness. The gifts I bring are a proficiency in household work, a drive to be the best I can be and to inspire my husband to do the same, passion for life, a great love for children, and compassion.

Without my husband’s calming, supportive presence, I have the tendency to spiral out of control emotionally. Without my drive for excellence and passion for life, my husband feels uninspired. We need each other’s respective natures and ways of loving in order to flourish.

Though I am incredibly imperfect and work on this continually, I have no problems with wanting to respect my husband as the Bible requires. As a woman, I long for guidance, love, and protection, as we all should long for the guidance, love and protection of our Heavenly Father. As a man, my husband longs for respect, love, and trust, so that he is fully able to provide for me, just as God longs for our respect, love, and trust, so that He can take care of us.
 
The text on submissiveness was written at a different time, and for a different people. Women were second class citizens, they weren’t allowed to do anything without a male figure permitting them to do so. They weren’t allowed to own property, and they had no choice but to get married because they couldn’t do anything else. In a nutshell, they were treated like children and property. Our culture has evolved over time, and so has the role of women. Some women yearn for that text that you cite. Others want nothing to do with it. It’s a big enough world for both to co-exist. I am one of those who wants nothing to do with that text. Marriage, to me, is (among other things) a partnership and both parties have to cooperate. Some decisions will be in favor of the husband, some the wife. But they should be agreed upon by both.

With regards to a woman rejecting her husband’s name and retaining her maiden name…the Church says nothing about that, and I really have no opinion of it. In some cultures, the woman’s family name is kept. In other cultures, the man’s family name is kept. In the US, it depends on the individual. Many keep their maiden name and add their married name to it.
You have put it well and more charitably than I may have done. Just to add. Many men secure in themselves want their wives to be their equal partners using their God given brains and abilities.
 
You have put it well and more charitably than I may have done. Just to add. Many men secure in themselves want their wives to be their equal partners using their God given brains and abilities.
Amen to that. My wife uses her maiden name. I don’t see a problem with that.

I think the best leaders are the ones who can bring out the best in others. You can’t do that if you have to control everything.
 
Our Blessed Mother, who was without sin and the Mother of God, submitted to the leadership of St. Joseph. Not because he had a stronger will (he didn’t), not because he had a stronger personality (he didn’t), but because God places men as the heads of their family. A wife’s submission to her husband is submission to God. A failure to submit is a failure to submit to God.

“Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church” is the much harder part I think. How did Christ love the Church??? TO DEATH ON A CROSS. If a man loves his wife as Christ loved the Church, I think any woman would gladly submit to his leadership.

Pax.
 
Names are a cultural thing. In the American culture, I don’t see any problem with a woman keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking her husband’s last name as her last name. On the other hand if a woman keeps her maiden last name and doesn’t take her husband’s name at all or goes with a hyphanated last name, I see that a sign of feminism and a unwillingness to truly become “one flesh”. When I was single, one of my rules in looking for a spouse was that I would not marry a woman who wouldn’t take my name. I’d advise other men to be cautious of this as well.

Finally a man is the head of his family, whether or not he “chooses” to be or he and/or his wife think it’s a good idea or the way it ought to be done. He IS the head, because God has made him so. Whether he exercises that authority in a proper and holy manner is up to him, but he will be held to account for his leadership or lack thereof by God.
 
Names are a cultural thing. In the American culture, I don’t see any problem with a woman keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking her husband’s last name as her last name. On the other hand if a woman keeps her maiden last name and doesn’t take her husband’s name at all or goes with a hyphanated last name, I see that a sign of feminism and a unwillingness to truly become “one flesh”. When I was single, one of my rules in looking for a spouse was that I would not marry a woman who wouldn’t take my name. I’d advise other men to be cautious of this as well.

Finally a man is the head of his family, whether or not he “chooses” to be or he and/or his wife think it’s a good idea or the way it ought to be done. He IS the head, because God has made him so. Whether he exercises that authority in a proper and holy manner is up to him, but he will be held to account for his leadership or lack thereof by God.
So women from cultures where taking the man’s name is unheard of, are crazy disobedient feminists to you as well?
You’re entitled to your opinion on this, however I am glad that the men I know would likely not heed your advice.

With respect, you’d do well to shift your focus away from names.
 
So women from cultures where taking the man’s name is unheard of, are crazy disobedient feminists to you as well?
You’re entitled to your opinion on this, however I am glad that the men I know would likely not heed your advice.

With respect, you’d do well to shift your focus away from names.
Jane, respectfully, Dan started the whole thought with, “in the American culture.” 😉
 
Well, so here am I. A thirtyish single man, on the one hand very conservative in some matters, on the other hand without trying to turn the course of time backwards, and with short patience for obstructive societal conventions with poor rationale.

So firstly, yeah, the man’s the head of the family. This is responsibility and not an entitlement. In fact, if you are the leader, you have a conflict of interest when you need to choose between what you want and what a person in your charge wants. And you will often end up not getting what you want simply because you’re the leader, not despite it. A woman can throw all her charms and tantrums and play unfair all she wants to sway the decision her way, but you can’t put your foot down and make what you want the law. You can only do it when it’s the better choice but not one more pleasing to you. For example, if you can only order one dish which comes in a size for two (e.g. they don’t have small pizza and they won’t cut it, just for the sake of argument), it would be totally lame and abusive (and unmanly at that!) to “force” your way with the choice of topping. More likely, you will be “forcing” her favourite topping over her objections that you should take yours! 😃

Same way, a man will generally be letting the woman have her way with plenty of other things, including those that affect him daily, even if they will be bought for his money on top of it. Curtains and wallpapers come to mind but there’s probably much more and more important things.

The above were just examples about the practice of male leadership in a household. Generally leadership should not be understood in the light of supposedly being able to do whatever you want, let alone having others do whatever you want, and is not about the pleasure of giving orders. In fact, it is service. This was exemplified to some extent in Disney’s Lion King when Mufasa (then king) told Simba (his son), “there’s much more to being a king than being able to do what you want to do,” (or similar.)

On the other hand, some women fear any semblance of doing what a man said or suggested. So in order to avoid that “slavery”, they will instead choose the more real slavery of doing the opposite thing to what a man suggested or asked for, on a compulsion and out of fear. This is a sad thing. It may be caused by some very unhappy experiences from childhood, I guess. Anyway, I would be extremely guarded and somewhat afraid of starting a relationship with a lady who had this sort of a problem. It’s kinda childish. As a man I have no problem “taking orders” from a woman or even a youngster who happens to be better at whatever we’re doing together than I do, or have spontaneously taken on some organisational responsibility.

It can be similar with the surnames but only depending on the actual motivation for refusing to change. I cannot not see the inconsistency of a man’s surname (father’s, that mum took, and, by the way, children are somehow not considered possessions just because they carry parents’ names) being good when a husband’s surname is not good for the reason that it’s a man’s. Basically, she ends up with a man’s surname anyway and while it may sting for personal reasons, a mark of maturity is to come to terms with reality. An eternal rebel may be hard to live with in a married relationship and may have a tiring personality. And a person with inconsistent patterns of thought may be hard to live with too. Not to mention a person who can’t compromise.

I say this in full knowledge that surnames are a tricky thing and a cultural one (how they formed, how they are different from culture to culture, how sometimes men have taken wives’ surnames etc.). Myself, I carry a double-barrelled one being a man. I’m related by blood to both parts of it, although I was only born with one. And I’m not emotionally vested in either in the sense of continuing a family line (as befitting someone who has a surname nobody else on the planet carries), to the point it feels frustrating at times when I think of a wife and children and surname issues at that point (BTW, one hyphen is max in my jurisdiction). And heck, I certainly would understand if a lady were attached to a surname handed down the family line. However, some of the reasons for not so much keeping existing names but refusing to take the husbands’ (this perspective matters), would worry me on the point of being ready for a relationship with a man, especially a married relationship.
 
You have put it well and more charitably than I may have done. Just to add. Many men secure in themselves want their wives to be their equal partners using their God given brains and abilities.
Yup. That’s what I’d want, regardless of the fact that, yeah, the man is the leader when you get into it.
 
Jane, respectfully, Dan started the whole thought with, “in the American culture.” 😉
Oh I know. Thats why I thought it was odd, the rest of the post. If one can recognise that surnames can be cultural, then why set American women to a different standard? Also what is American culture? Surely it differs from state to state, and within those states culture to culture and family to family. A woman might be a first generation Puerto Rican-American who comes from a family whose women just do not take their husband’s names. In all other ways she might be a perfect Catholic. Do you see what I am getting at? To judge someone’s character because they want to keep their surnames is unfair, IMHO.

I did say that Dan is welcome to his opinions and preferences. Women are also entitled to having an attachment to the names they were born with, without giving anyone an explanation. I would of course be open to discussing with a significant other who has a problem with it, although I would find it strange nonetheless. I dont think it is a feminist thing actually. Just a human thing.

God bless
 
Thanks for the thoughts. Especially those who articulated their gifts.
Anyone have any comment on how women are at their fullest, the most respected in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

Also, what exactly does “head of household” mean to you ladies who believe that is proper for the man?
 
Thanks for the thoughts. Especially those who articulated their gifts.
Anyone have any comment on how women are at their fullest, the most respected in the eyes of the Catholic Church?

Also, what exactly does “head of household” mean to you ladies who believe that is proper for the man?
I would say that women are alot more respected in the eyes of the Church than many non-Catholics think.
 
There are different ways to lead.

You can lead by example.

You can lead by feeling that you have authority to impose your will on others.

It is easy to see the effect of these two forms of leadership when they are taken to the extremes.

The extreme of the first type of leadership would be someone like: St. Francis.

The extreme example of the second type of leadership would be someone like: Hitler.

Who do you want to be like – Hitler, or St. Francis?

Many women have professional degrees and it is ridiculous to expect them not to use their maiden name and title because someone has a dysfunctional and controlling idea about what leadership is.

I am not a woman. However, if I was a woman and I met a man who started the relationship by suggesting that I use “his name” as the beginning of a long list of “rules”, I would run in the other direction.
 
Jane, respectfully, Dan started the whole thought with, “in the American culture.” 😉
But…there is no American culture. The USA is a melting pot of different cultures and religions. The only true “American culture” is that of the Native Americans, and even then, the culture varies.
 
Oh I know. Thats why I thought it was odd, the rest of the post. If one can recognise that surnames can be cultural, then why set American women to a different standard?
Same reason I don’t wear an Arabic scarf to work in Poland, even though I look good in it. 😉 There are different cultures in which various things tend to be proper and when talking about American, we stick with American, when talking about Spanish we stick with Spanish (kids get names from both parents), when talking about Belgian we stick with Belgian (no changing). We don’t do the “but in culture X this is proper” excuse, as we are not adopting a whole culture. Saint Josemaria got both surnames of his parents (Escriva from father and Albas from mother) but a normal American boy doesn’t become a Smith Jones just because the latter was his mother’s maiden name (while there’d be nothing wrong with it). What I’m saying is we can’t take out a single thing out of a whole different culture and claim it as an excuse for giving in to some tendency we have which has nothing to do with cultural reasons (e.g. aversion to perceived male domination).
Also what is American culture? Surely it differs from state to state, and within those states culture to culture and family to family. A woman might be a first generation Puerto Rican-American who comes from a family whose women just do not take their husband’s names.
Yes, that’s true but it doesn’t apply to those who are not Puerto Ricans. It’s always a totally different thing following the customs and traditions of one’s culture, one’s family (certain families have their own traditions that differ from those of the rest of the society) and so on. In fact, it’s not really much of a problem finding some exotic custom and implementing it in one’s life. What’s a problem is giving in to a fear of unity and avoiding the external signs of it.
In all other ways she might be a perfect Catholic. Do you see what I am getting at? To judge someone’s character because they want to keep their surnames is unfair, IMHO.
Yeah, but we’re not doing that here. Just saying that some stated or unstated reasons for not so much retaining the current name as refusing to take the husband’s may be signs of a problematic attitude, i.e. one that’s not very open to living in a relationship in which one needs to compromise for a man, make mutual concessions, do things together etc. (even if we don’t arrive at a mention of the man being the head of the household).
I did say that Dan is welcome to his opinions and preferences. Women are also entitled to having an attachment to the names they were born with, without giving anyone an explanation.
I agree they have the right to that attachment as anybody does (or lack of it, more like, in some cases, I guess… since myself I’d probably buy a place and take the name of it if I could), but I respectfully disagree on the part about not giving an explanation. I believe the Western civilisation (not just American) is going too heavily in the “don’t owe anybody an explanation” direction and I personally prefer a model in which people explain things to people and don’t make manifestations of their rights, avoid making others put up with their unilateral decisions etc. This may be a legacy of constitutional rights perhaps: we’re prone to expect others to live with whatever we’re legally entitled to, even though it wouldn’t hurt us to be more outgoing and accommodating. I watched a Turkish film a week ago. A grown man spent two sentences giving an explanation why he couldn’t accept when invited, rather than saying “sorry, I can’t” and expecting it to end the matter. And it wasn’t forced or theatrical, it was as natural as “sorry, I can’t” plus the expectation of no questions being asked comes to Westerners.
I would of course be open to discussing with a significant other who has a problem with it
To be honest I dread the, “so which of your names do I take,” moment, personally, let alone the discussion when it comes to children.
although I would find it strange nonetheless.
If I can offer you some perspective: this isn’t about a man popping out of the blue and asking you to take his surname, in the same way e.g. your best lady friend would (i.e. out of the blue and without a cause). It’s about reasons for changing a pattern. He may feel that (for example, since I don’t know which culture you personally come from) his father’s name was good enough for his mother (and grandfather’s for grandmother and so on up the family line) and your father’s for your mother but somehow his isn’t good enough for you. And since the gesture is a sign of unity, he might be worried as to why you are, in his perception, avoiding that sign. Some men may take this to heart more than others.

If we exaggerate a bit, I once read about the example of a woman who agreed to a religious marriage but wanted her civil status (i.e. in the eyes of the state) to be single, so “single” in documents (and for this reason, in her words, not because of e.g. believing civil marriage to be superfluous). One could ask what’s the problem if she did agree to the religious marriage, but we can all see something odd in it. Now, I’m not equating name change with civil marriage but trying to give you an example easier to relate with.
 
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