Need Scriptural Support For

[lilypadrees]

Please move this if it’s not in the correct forum.

A “Bible only” poster on another forum (not CAF) has asked the following questions. Unfortunately, perhaps due to the overwhelming stress my family is under right now, my mind is drawing a blank.

1. “What Scriptures support Rome’s teaching that the grace of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works?”
2. “I’m also interested in the Scriptures to support Mary’s “saving office” (CCC 969). Can you reference them here and also explain the duties of this office?”

I really don’t know how to respond to these since the poster is adamnant about requiring Scriptural support only.

Am appreciative of any help.

 

[CRV]

Not sure if I can really help. As an aside Fr Longnecker had an article on his blog titled Watch Out for Gospel Gunfights here

On #2 Mary Saves by Tim Staples 5/17/2018
He mentions various scripture passages, explaining how God expects us to co-operate with His grace in the work of our salvation while helping others to salvation. He then goes on to explain how Mary enters the picture beginning at the Annunciation, wedding at Cana, to various passages in John, Genesis, Jeremiah, Revelation, Luke.

Hopefully this article may help you.

 

[Gorgias]

I really don’t know how to respond to these since the poster is adamnant about requiring Scriptural support only.

Then ask him to provide Scriptural support for the assertion that Scripture is the sole rule of faith.

“What Scriptures support Rome’s teaching that the grace of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works?”

By this, I would assume he means “justification is obtained by works, preserved by works, increased by works, and recovered by works”? If so, then that’s not what the Church teaches.

However, the Church does teach that salvation (rather than justification) requires works (not of the (Mosaic) law, though). The Letter of James will provide good support for that position.

 

[whatistrue]

I really don’t know how to respond to these since the poster is adamnant about requiring Scriptural support only.

Two things.

1 - “What is the scripture that states that only scripture can be used to determine correct doctrine”.

2 - “You don’t get to tell me what sources I can use to form my beliefs”.

 

[Gorgias]

2 - “You don’t get to tell me what sources I can use to form my beliefs”.

Well, to be fair, he’s asking her to defend her beliefs, not form them.

 

[whatistrue]

Well, to be fair, he’s asking her to defend her beliefs, not form them.

That’s true. But how she formed her beliefs is integral to defending them, and he needs to defend his insistence on only using certain sources first (at least in my opinion). Actually on reflection I think that a better overall statement would be something like “If you insist on arbitrarily limiting what arguments you will listen to, then you are not interested in legitimate debate so I will pass”.

 

[poche]

From the Letter of St James:

4 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?

15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,

16 and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?

17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

18 But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith.

19 You believe in the one God – that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear.

20 Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

22 So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did.

23 In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name ‘friend of God’.

James 2:14-23

 

[JohnR77]

I think you would do well by 1st clarifying the different understanding that catholics have about works then protestants Do…

Or else he will think you’re defending something that you’re not

Protestants will Usually consider works to be 100% manmade. For catholics we consider good works to be good because The Bible calls them good. Therefore they are God’s grace working within us to accomplish them and for our part we have to cooperate with that grace.

I suggest the following 2 articles

Defending the Glory of God

https://www.defendingthebride.com/ma2/defending.html

Satan’s Number 1 Enemy

https://www.defendingthebride.com/ma2/number.html

 

[lilypadrees]

By this, I would assume he means “justification is obtained by works, preserved by works, increased by works, and recovered by works”? If so, then that’s not what the Church teaches.

I did as you suggested. And the Protestant poster said,

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32.

Your religion also teaches that the Mosaic Law is required for salvation (CCC 2036, 2068).

And James taught the same thing Paul taught; there is no dissension in the Godhead."

 

[Zach]

Perhaps justification and salvation is not preserved by good works as much it is lost by bad works. Good works will strengthen the will to fight the temptations to engage in bad works. As far as biblical support there is plenty right from the main source, Jesus himself. Direct the person to the sheep and the goats Matthew 25:31-46

 

[catholicray]

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32.

Your religion also teaches that the Mosaic Law is required for salvation (CCC 2036, 2068).

Mosaic Law refers to the Ten Commandments which is supported by Scripture. Jesus said I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

The term law has multiple meanings in the Bible, it can refer to the 10 commandments or the additional “law” added by the Jewish priesthood.

Ask him for the quote from the council of Trent he is referring to. Don’t defend what you don’t know.

Furthermore what Rome teaches is not detained by Scripture alone and he has no leg to stand on to even challenge her except his own interpretation of Scripture. I’d check out a topic I’ve started on here called the Sola Scriptura Contradiction. Every angle on that doctrine is thoroughly addressed on there.

 

[phil19034]

hi @lilypadrees

This post is in regards to the following claim

Your religion also teaches that the Mosaic Law is required for salvation (CCC 2036, 2068).

CCC 2036 says:

The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God

Nowhere does it mention the “Mosaic Law” in CCC 2036
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a3.htm

CCC 2068 says:

[2068] The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

Again, it does not mention the “Mosaic Law,” it mentions the Ten Commandments.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2.htm

Furthermore, the “Mosaic Law” is NOT mentioned at all between CCC 2030 & 2082 - nowhere on the two pages quoted above.

Actually, the “Mosaic Law” is only mentioned ONCE in the entire Catechism - CCC 1164, which says:

1164 From the time of the Mosaic law, the People of God have observed fixed feasts, beginning with Passover, to commemorate the astonishing actions of the Savior God, to give him thanks for them, to perpetuate their remembrance, and to teach new generations to conform their conduct to them. In the age of the Church, between the Passover of Christ already accomplished once for all, and its consummation in the kingdom of God, the liturgy celebrated on fixed days bears the imprint of the newness of the mystery of Christ.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s1c2a1.htm

So you can discredit what’s he/she is quoting from the CCC, because it does NOT say what he/she is trying to make it say.

 

[phil19034]

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32

Here is what the Council of Trent said in those canons.

Canon 9
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 24.
If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works,[125] but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 29.
If anyone says that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again,[130] or that he can indeed recover again the lost justice but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and Universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and His Apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught, let him be anathema.

Canon 32.
If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

The person you are talking with is using the same old talking points that fundamentalist protestants have used for hundreds of years. He/she is attempting to use the Catechism & Council of Trent to defend his/her faulty understanding of the Catholic belief regarding justification.

 

[phil19034]

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32.

Furthermore, the above statement right here sums it up his/her misunderstanding pretty well.

Catholics and Protestants don’t use the term “Justification” in the same way.

I highly recommend the following article by Jimmy Akin.

What Catholics Believe About Faith and Works | Catholic Answers Magazine

God bless

 

[CRV]

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32.

CCC CHAPTER THREE GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE ARTICLE 2 GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
“#2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56”
“2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace . The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.”
"2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts.62”

56Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
60Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
DS = Denzinger #1533-1548

VI Session The Council of Trent Canon XI, XXIV,XXIX and XXXII are found after chapter XVI.

From this, it seems this person is cherry picking parts to justify their position. Which is what protestants do - in my experience. They don’t read in context. As the CCC on grace and justification explains in fuller and as I outlined above it Comes From ie based on the Council of Trent.

Justification by Grace Acts of the Apostles 2:38 based on CCC, Council of Trent and various scripture passages. There is a summary towards the bottom.

Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[po18guy]

They are framing the question so that you must agree with them. Nonsense!

Rather: put them on the defense! Seriously. Ask where Jesus founded His Church on “the bible” or on any writing at all. Ask them where our Lord told us to take disputes. Ask them what is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. Hint: As good as it is, it’s not the bible.

Ask them if Jesus gave their “church” the power of binding and loosing “whatever” on earth and in heaven.

No?

I would tell them, “That’s too bad.”

You cannot win this argument, as their hearts and minds are set against Christ’s Church. Pray, pray, pray.

 

[CRV]

You cannot win this argument, as their hearts and minds are set against Christ’s Church.

Agreed. (+10 characters.)

 

[JohnR77]

And James taught the same thing Paul taught; there is no dissension in the Godhead."

.
Yes. And Jesus taught the same Gospel That Saint Paul was teaching. Ask him to read the Gospels and what Jesus taught.

Jesus is God

Bible Teaches Jesus is God

 

[Gorgias]

"Lily, the modern RCc most certainly teaches that the GRACE of justification is obtained, preserved, increased, and recovered by works. Please see the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent, particularly canons 9, 24, 29, and 32.

What is most egregious about his reply is the assertion that the Church teaches that “justification is obtained by works”. Now, at best, he’s referring to canon 9. Let’s see what it says:

Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

There is no “work” that is being discussed here. Rather, the distinction being made is one of a faith that does not proceed from the will vs a faith that is “prepared and disposed by the action of one’s own will.” The Church teaches that God provides grace which prompts the will to faith and which requires assent and cooperation. It is that faith – prompted by grace and assented to by the will – by which we are justified.

But, what about after baptism? Does our justification lie fallow and dead throughout the course of our lives? Of course not! The Church claims that our cooperation with that grace – merited by Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection, and imputed to us by virtue of Him – builds and strengthens that grace of justification received at baptism.

Canon 24 is pointing out that we can lose the grace of justification following baptism, but that our cooperation with that grace continues to preserve the grace in our heart. The contrary position ascribes no value to “supernatural acts of charity” which we perform (which we would say that themselves require the grace and merit of Christ to accomplish!).

Canon 29 only asserts the efficacy of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. It is not a ‘work’, unless you consider it a work of God… which shouldn’t get him all worked up.

Canon 32 merely points out that God shares the merits of Christ with us, in virtue of performance of the good works which we are able to achieve only on the basis of “the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ”. Moreover, it refutes the assertion that good works have no value.

So, his assertion about justification being obtained by works is, on its very face, false. The rest? If you understand it properly, then it’s true – but it doesn’t mean that we merit salvation on our own account; it means that the glory redounds to Christ, and we simply cooperate with Him and are rewarded (not paid, but rewarded!) by Him.

So… he’s mistaken, and one hopes he’s mistaken in good faith and not just dogmatically accusing the Church of doctrine that he knows we don’t hold.

 

[Gorgias]

Your religion also teaches that the Mosaic Law is required for salvation (CCC 2036, 2068).

I’m guessing he’s never read the Catechism. Let’s look at it:
CCC_2036:

The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law , because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

The ‘natural law’ isn’t the ‘Mosaic law’.
CCC 2068:

The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

Does this say that “the Mosaic law is required for salvation”? Hardly. It affirms, however, that the Decalogue still is required.

Christ affirms this by intensifying the Decalogue, not abolishing it (“you have heard… but I tell you…”). In addition, He asserts the validity of the Law (Mt 5:17-19):

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.”

Naturally, just as Christ has authority to ‘fulfill’ the law, He passed authority onto Peter and the apostles, who then had the authority to point to the fulfillment of the dietary law and make it non-binding on Gentile Christians.

And James taught the same thing Paul taught; there is no dissension in the Godhead."

This seems like a non sequitur…?