need spiritual help

[Lief_Erikson]

Student09:

Lief, thank you so much for posting - it is helping me a little. I didn’t know that about the Baptism of Desire; I thought it didn’t do anything unless you actually died!

I went back last night and began reading “Dark Night of the Soul” from the beginning again, where it speaks of the night of sense. I’m not sure, but it does sound like what I am experiencing. I’ve also been going through exterior trials. In a strange way I know that I would not be able to bear these trials if God were not supporting me, even though He seems so far away and disconnected.

I read about that recently in . . . I think a story of St. Catherine of Sienna. She endured a terrible tribulation from the devil and prayed for God’s help but had to go through the whole ordeal without ever experiencing His Presence. Days later she experienced God’s Presence again and said to Him, “where were you when I was suffering so painfully?” And He answered, “I was in your heart fortifying you by grace so that you could withstand the trial.”

I hope I’m not derailing this thread… but I was wondering, how do you know if you have this, or a trial that’s a result of your own sin?

Never having experienced this before myself, and not having studied it that carefully, I don’t think I can tell you. I know that some saints during this trial HAVE thought they were cut off from God (I’m thinking of St. Faustina), yet they continued to love and pursue Him relentlessly anyway.

DBT is a user who could probably give you a much better answer. He is very knowledgeable about the spiritual life through extensive study and life experience. I recommend contacting him.

If a person feels rejected by God and finds it painful to even think of Him, but still continues to trust Him on a deeper level (deeper than emotions) and praises Him, - can that be the dark night of the soul?

From what I’ve read of St. Faustina’s experience, the soul does continue to trust and pursue God, and probably praise Him, during this trial.

I’m asking cause sometimes I feel this way, but I’m nowhere close to this stage. That’s why I started wondering if I am in fact rejected, because I’ve read the dark night of the soul is a really advanced stage of the spiritual life. Maybe what I’m going through is the dark night of the senses, but not much is happening to me except the sin I described in my thread. Maybe God is trying to purify me and it’s a different type of trial.

That’s what I’ve been thinking. My own feeling about what you’ve been going through is that the Lord is allowing the devil to horribly accuse and mentally beat you up so that you will learn to trust God’s mercy more completely. I could be very wrong, but that’s what I’ve been thinking.

We go through great trials and tribulations at many points in our lives even while we aren’t undergoing the dark nights of sense or spirit.

Before I became Catholic, I went through several days of feeling completely rejected by God but this was not brought on by sin, to my knowledge. It came out of nowhere, while I was on a retreat/conference. Throughout this time I continued to attend the prayer and worship sessions, but it was very hard to think of God. I can see now how He used that time to help me grow in faith, as previously I was very attached to feelings (and still am in ways, so I’m not yet perfect in this regard…at all.)

Yet I can see how you’ve been tested more in this regard than anyone else I know, and have been learning more fully to not rely on feelings than anyone through your trials. It’s a pretty impressive lesson in self-abandonment for me, to see how God is using your experiences with feelings to train your soul.

I think I’d prefer a spiritual trial without sin than what I’m going through now.

I know exactly what you mean.

But I think no matter what’s happening, we should always say - Blessed be Jesus, You are good, I trust in You.

Definitely!

 

[Student09]

Adoration is very important for growing in faith. However, faith in the Real Presence is a supernatural gift which surpasses our reason and our fallen nature. Maybe the time for Adoration will come later? Jesus is pleased by us delighting in Him as he delights in us, wherever we find him at the time.

I believe with all my heart and all my soul and every fiber of my being that Jesus the Lord is truly present in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity. I think that if I truly lost faith in that, my heart would stop beating.

I’ll pray for you.

Thank you.

PS: Monica, don’t worry about derailing the thread (and you are not, you are very on topic) - keep posting.

 

[aspirant]

The advice of others is better, but here’s my :twocents:, if I may.

Hi all. I have been in a “dry” period in prayer for a couple of months now. Occasionally God will give me a consolation (I hope I’m using all these words right!) for a very brief time; they have been getting shorter and farther apart but also more intense. After the consolation the darkness and dryness intensifies and becomes more painful than it was before. I hope I’m describing this correctly.

I think you’re using the terms right.

I find the language of aridity and dryness helpful because it makes me think of plants. As the rains decrease and the water table lowers, the plants that live to thrive are the ones that stretch their roots wider and deeper. A dry season is not a time to stop growing, you might say, but to develop better roots.

Though the rains of consolation are few and far between, God himself is present and strengthening you, if you let him, to develop strong roots. These growing pains are difficult, but if we persevere by God’s grace, a true blessing.

Today I went to Adoration and felt so miserable.

One of the most beautiful things about our faith is God’s supreme compassion: we believe that God himself has assumed our nature and, with it, our suffering. Jesus suffers with you so that your suffering can be his. It may even be said that, thanks to his incarnation, we are never so close to him as when we suffer, however far he may feel. This suffering he transforms into new and abundant life.

I don’t really understand what God is doing in my soul.

I think that God sometimes withholds consolations, what some spiritual writers call “warmth” or “sweetness,” so that we can learn to seek and to love him for his own sake, and not just for the sake of feeling good. True happiness, blessedness, runs deeper than how we feel at the moment. They say the “spiritual hedonist” desires only the sweetness, the “spiritually sober” desire God while the sweetness comes and goes and comes and goes.

I have a lot to learn when it comes to spiritual sobriety, steady constancy throughout all seasons of spiritual life. I have a tendency not to follow a good rule of prayer; I pray a lot when it feels good and easy, not enough when it becomes difficult.

But God is good.

Have you ever read Metropolitan Anthony Bloom’s little book Beginning to Pray? I read this from time to time and always learn something more. Prayer begins, he writes, with the sense of God’s “absence.”

This is what strengthens our faith, and what proves to the Lord that we really want to love Him with all our heart, soul, and strength… we should not want to stay in the same place spiritually without growing in grace.

Yes!

I am constantly terrified that I will stop persevering, as it becomes more and more difficult.

Do not worry, just strive to be steady, consistent. If you wobble, do not berate yourself, simply return. Easy to say, I know, and hard to do! God is with you.

I wish I had a holy spiritual director as someone else suggested but I don’t know how to find one and I’m not even Catholic yet so it seems like it would be odd.

It’s not always easy to find one. Sometimes I can, often I cannot. But I do not think it would be “odd” for a catechumen to seek a good spiritual director.

As a catechumen I cannot go to Confession and be absolved… Is it even possible for me to be in a state of grace?

With God all things are possible. Believe, repent, love, pray. God is with you.

everything I have heard and read makes it sound as if spirituality and sanctity begins with baptism.

That will be a new and glorious beginning, but God has already begun working in you.

Lately the Old Testament is where I find the most comfort - maybe because, as you said, the OT Israelites were waiting for the Messiah to come, as I am waiting.

Wonderful. It might be said that you are experiencing a personal season of Advent.

I especially love to pray the psalms, at least one every day.

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you, Aspirant for your insightful and encouraging responses.

Prayer is a journey that has the same pitfalls for everyone. Depending on where we are in the Lord, and how the Lord best wants to draw us, experiences may vary but the journey is the same.

It took me a long time to realize that our Loving God wants us to grow in his grace and be strengthened in it, and that is why he introduces a “night of faith” into our prayer life. Instead of focusing on myself and the consolations I would like to have, I need to focus on Him, and console Him! This helps me to forget myself and be an example for others.

 

[jimcav]

Your obviously going through a difficult time, but you are certainly not alone as you can see from the responses. It’s as if God’s plan is the same for all of us.

I think when we have a conversion of heart, or the moment we see the Light, God is talking to us everyday, nearly every minute! We are on fire for Him and we feel this euphoria we never felt. It is a wonderful time, almost like no other in our lives. We feel free, we feel as is we’ve been let in on the big secret of life and we want to share it with the world. But as time moves along, that wonderful period of euphoria often leaves us. It’s not that we are any less on fire for Him, or that He is not still very present in us, but we have settled into a prayer life, a devout life and we are at peace with it all. God likely feels as though He doesn’t need to speak to us at that point. We are on the right path now. Afterall, when you are driving down the road in the right direction, there are no signs saying “right way”. But go down the road in the wrong direction, and there are numerous signs telling us “wong way”, “do not enter”, or “turn back”. I think it is like that with God. He speaks to us often when we are going down the wrong road. You are obviously going down the right road now, so hence, God might be speaking less to you now.

Have patience and rest under the Cross. Jesus wants you to rest in Him, under the shadow of His Cross. It will take away your anxiety, your unsuredness. Continue to pray mightily to Him and look for nothing, but just know He is with you.

 

[MtnDwellar]

My spirituality goes up and down. I found that helping others raises it.

I am somewhat surprised. Prayer, adoration, reading the bible and other good books are great advice. Doesn’t anyone else find that there is a time when the leather has to reach the road? God rewards us when we help others. I won’t go all biblical. There are probably hundreds of verses.

It seems to me that when I am able to work for others, it takes me “out of myself” and lets more of Christ in. Am I misunderstanding the problem? The OP said that he needs spiritual help because he is in a “dry” period. When I feel spiritually low, I almost instinctively know that it is time for charity. Helping others has never failed to bring me to a better place.

 

[Student09]

I am somewhat surprised. Prayer, adoration, reading the bible and other good books are great advice. Doesn’t anyone else find that there is a time when the leather has to reach the road? God rewards us when we help others. I won’t go all biblical. There are probably hundreds of verses.

It seems to me that when I am able to work for others, it takes me “out of myself” and lets more of Christ in. Am I misunderstanding the problem? The OP said that he needs spiritual help because he is in a “dry” period. When I feel spiritually low, I almost instinctively know that it is time for charity. Helping others has never failed to bring me to a better place.

Charity is always a good thing, and I try to practice it as much as I can. I wish I had more opportunities right now. After I join the Church, and maybe this summer when I have more time, I would like to join the St. Vincent de Paul society or something like that.

I’m not sure what you mean by “spiritually low.” (BTW, I’m a girl. )

 

[Student09]

So, if it’s alright for me to ask, I’m just wondering, how long has everyone here been in the night of sense, or if you are through it, how long did you spend in it? Did it begin very soon after you started praying or had a conversion of heart?

 

[aspirant]

I am somewhat surprised. Prayer, adoration, reading the bible and other good books are great advice. Doesn’t anyone else find that there is a time when the leather has to reach the road? God rewards us when we help others.

Of course I believe in doing all kinds of works of mercy, acts of love. This is an essential element of Christian life. But one can be doing great things for others and still be without sweetness or consolation. Just ask Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. Seasons of aridity are not necessarily something to be fixed. They can be a tremendous gift.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Charity is always a good thing, and I try to practice it as much as I can. I wish I had more opportunities right now. After I join the Church, and maybe this summer when I have more time, I would like to join the St. Vincent de Paul society or something like that.

I’m not sure what you mean by “spiritually low.” (BTW, I’m a girl. )

Sorry about that!

I suspect that we have a different concept of charity. I am able to find unlimited opportunities for charity… They involve my family, friends, and sometimes strangers.

 

[Monica4316]

So, if it’s alright for me to ask, I’m just wondering, how long has everyone here been in the night of sense, or if you are through it, how long did you spend in it? Did it begin very soon after you started praying or had a conversion of heart?

This happened to me a few times and it lasted anywhere from a couple days to weeks to a couple months. A friend of mine went through a ‘dark night’ for several months. This time, it’s been around a few weeks. The first time, it was around a year (two years? sorry I can’t remember) after my ‘conversion’. I think it’s different for everyone, but it’s not something that happens for only a day, in most cases.

Sometimes when people feel far from God for a long time, they wonder if it will EVER get better… and yes, it will. The Saints went through their “dark nights” for years, at times. But I think it only happens for years when a person has been a Christian for a while and is very strong spiritually… if you are still on your way to becoming Catholic, I tend to think it would probably get better once (or before) you’re received into the Church. But this is up to God… try to surrender to Him and trust. Many attacks of the enemy can be prevented if we simply trust God and not rely on our own understanding.

God bless

 

[Student09]

I suspect that we have a different concept of charity. I am able to find unlimited opportunities for charity… They involve my family, friends, and sometimes strangers.

Yes, I practice charity with my family and friends because right now I do not have time to do much more than that; those are the people I come in contact with. That was what I meant when I said I practice charity as much as I can. In the past I have done things like taking care of the elderly who are dying, and I would like to practice charity towards the poor and homeless.

 

[Monica4316]

Yes, I practice charity with my family and friends because right now I do not have time to do much more than that; those are the people I come in contact with. That was what I meant when I said I practice charity as much as I can. In the past I have done things like taking care of the elderly who are dying, and I would like to practice charity towards the poor and homeless.

that’s wonderful and I’m sure it is pleasing to God

 

[Lief_Erikson]

So, if it’s alright for me to ask, I’m just wondering, how long has everyone here been in the night of sense, or if you are through it, how long did you spend in it? Did it begin very soon after you started praying or had a conversion of heart?

For me, it was about a year and a half. It started when I went into a Marian chapel in France. I was Protestant. I saw all the Marian art and heard a voice in my spirit say, “This is a very different view of Christianity than you’ve ever known. It’s very ancient and you’ve never given it any serious thought. It’s well worth considering.” But I rejected the voice firmly and left the building. I tangled with Mary, so I got blasted for it – all my experiences with God disappeared and I was left feeling alone and in dryness and darkness for nine months (this was God’s answer to her prayers for me drawing me toward the Kingdom), until I started receiving illuminations showing me Catholicism was true.

Then for the next several months, God was there showing me what was true, but He didn’t give me the feelings of peace or joy. Instead I experienced great torments of fear that I was listening to demons and going to Hell, the feeling that almost everyone in the world would hate me if they knew my beliefs, that I was diseased and sick, along with a great loss of respect and prestige among family members who looked up to me greatly before, and wounded relationships with most of my family. But at the end of it all, when I was Confirmed into the Church, those deep pains and trials fell away and pure joy settled in.

 

[Monica4316]

For me, it was about a year and a half. It started when I went into a Marian chapel in France. I was Protestant. I saw all the Marian art and heard a voice in my spirit say, “This is a very different view of Christianity than you’ve ever known. It’s very ancient and you’ve never given it any serious thought. It’s well worth considering.” But I rejected the voice firmly and left the building. I tangled with Mary, so I got blasted for it – all my experiences with God disappeared and I was left feeling alone and in dryness and darkness for nine months (this was God’s answer to her prayers for me drawing me toward the Kingdom), until I started receiving illuminations showing me Catholicism was true.

Then for the next several months, God was there showing me what was true, but He didn’t give me the feelings of peace or joy. Instead I experienced great torments of fear that I was listening to demons and going to Hell, the feeling that almost everyone in the world would hate me if they knew my beliefs, that I was diseased and sick, along with a great loss of respect and prestige among family members who looked up to me greatly before, and wounded relationships with most of my family. But at the end of it all, when I was Confirmed into the Church, those deep pains and trials fell away and pure joy settled in.

wow thanks for sharing that!

Before I was received into the Church, and even at times afterwards, I experienced a lot of fear that I’m doing the wrong thing and listening to demons. However whenever I felt close to God I only felt peace about my decision to be Catholic, and it was just obvious somehow that it’s the truth… and even in the trials, my faith was still there… I see that as a great sign - when God still upholds our faith in times of darkness/confusion

 

[Tybourne]

I believe with all my heart and all my soul and every fiber of my being that Jesus the Lord is truly present in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity. I think that if I truly lost faith in that, my heart would stop beating.

Thanks be to God for giving you that gift of faith before your baptism. It came to me after my baptism (in an Anglican church).

During the ‘night of the senses’ or a time of breaking, I asked my spiritual guide “How long does this last for?” As soon as I’d asked, and before he replied, I knew the answer: “As long as necessary”. I need to be purified of my sins and passions and my attachments. For me, this takes a long time. For others (e.g. St Therese) it seems to happen quite quickly. So, I don’t mind being a slowcoach/ slowpoke, so long as I get there in the end!

 

[Student09]

Thanks be to God for giving you that gift of faith before your baptism. It came to me after my baptism (in an Anglican church).

During the ‘night of the senses’ or a time of breaking, I asked my spiritual guide “How long does this last for?” As soon as I’d asked, and before he replied, I knew the answer: “As long as necessary”. I need to be purified of my sins and passions and my attachments. For me, this takes a long time. For others (e.g. St Therese) it seems to happen quite quickly. So, I don’t mind being a slowcoach/ slowpoke, so long as I get there in the end!

Hehe, well, as long as necessary is good. As long as God gives me the strength and I know He will if I don’t screw it up.

I am glad I took the advice of others here and went back to St. John of the Cross. I love the way he writes about God and the soul, and especially his interpretations of Scripture.

By the way, Monica, near the end of the part about the night of sense, he says that for some people, this night is accompanied with temptations to blasphemy and also scruples. I don’t know if it’s the same as what you are going through, but I thought of you when I read it. Perhaps it is at least related; he definitely says it is a temptation which God allows to happen to some people in order to strengthen their souls and bring them close to Him.

 

[Student09]

I have another question … sorry. St John of the Cross says that those who are in the night of sense should stop trying to practice mental prayer because they can’t, and their prayer should consist of just resting with God even though it seems like they aren’t doing anything, because that is what the soul wants to do. So my question is, how do I know whether I should follow this or whether I should keep trying to pray mentally?

I posted some time ago about the fact that I seemed unable any longer to practice vocal/mental prayer at Adoration - and lately this inability has extended itself to the rest of my prayer life, too. Praying the rosary used to be very meditative and I learned so much from it, now I feel like I am just reciting the words with my mouth and I can’t think about the mysteries at all or even about the words I’m saying. After I read that in St. John of the Cross, I decided to try what he says, so after reading the LOTH I just sat there, and then kneeled for a while in silence. Nothing happened except that I felt peace. But then I wondered if it was wrong to do it because I don’t know if I’m at that stage or not. Could it do harm? Any help would be good … has this happened to you?

 

[Tybourne]

my question is, how do I know whether I should follow this or whether I should keep trying to pray mentally?
… Could it do harm? Any help would be good … has this happened to you?

Yes, I’ve been unable to pray mentally at times during the night of the senses. At these times, a prayer of simple looking or presence is perhaps best. This is where you really need a good spiritual guide and the comments of the good people here cannot replace that face-to-face contact in the Holy Spirit. Judge any development/ change in prayer by its fruits. Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit unfolding in you: fear of the Lord, piety, knowledge, fortitude, counsel, understanding, wisdom? It can be very hard to discern this for ourselves, in my experience. God bless.

 

[Student09]

Yes, I’ve been unable to pray mentally at times during the night of the senses. At these times, a prayer of simple looking or presence is perhaps best. This is where you really need a good spiritual guide and the comments of the good people here cannot replace that face-to-face contact in the Holy Spirit. Judge any development/ change in prayer by its fruits. Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit unfolding in you: fear of the Lord, piety, knowledge, fortitude, counsel, understanding, wisdom? It can be very hard to discern this for ourselves, in my experience. God bless.

Thank you for sharing … I didn’t think something like this would happen to me so soon. I think you’re right, I really need a spiritual director … how do I go about finding a good one?