Need translation from womanese ;)

[chevalier]

Ray, exactly.

For the former, well, as for your regret, I’d say the way you reacted was likely because of who you were. Reacting in that way and not another might well have been a part of you and maybe a defining one. Cannot regret being yourself. In the end it might have been for the better, since we don’t know what would have happened otherwise. We don’t know what it could have had precluded if you had kissed her and we don’t know what has come out, or what will still come out, in some indirect way, from the fact you didn’t kiss her. If we went on that tangent, who knows where we would arrive.

As for me, if I were to kiss a girl without being serious about her in the way of wanting an exclusive relationship, unless it were to be on a great influence of emotions, it would be greatly against my nature, so I don’t think I should plan such an action and execute it. And the way we’re discussing things here, I’m pretty much in the state of knowing and witting, so it’s not like it would be on a heart’s whim. However, if things were to resparkle romantically and I would be inclined to do that, what Liberanos said is quite an impulse actually to do it.

As for flowers, it’s a bit of a habit with me - it doesn’t necessarily mean romantic interest. The society here is still somewhat permeated with conservative manners, a bit like the South of the US. There are arguments against and they are reasonable, though I can’t really get myself to drop the idea of bringing her some after not having seen for her two years. Even if it were decidedly just friends, I think I still would, and possibly even if she were romantically involved with someone else, although in that case I’d pick something safe. A propos flowers, since those 2.5 years ago she didn’t at all feel uncomfortable walking around the city with me with 25 roses in her hand (any bypasser would get obvious ideas), I don’t think flowers could go wrong. This given not much has changed since 2.5 years ago, which is not a given. Perhaps handing her flowers right at the beginning could be seen as starting an offensive right off the bat, but I think if I know this risk, I could uncharge it in some way. Besides, I’m suddenly getting a hunch that the less confused, tentative or hesitant I am, the fewer such thoughts the girl is going to have. Things always seem to be healthier with her when I’m more confident.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Besides, I’m suddenly getting a hunch that the less confused, tentative or hesitant I am, the fewer such thoughts the girl is going to have. Things always seem to be healthier with her when I’m more confident.

When getting right down to it, that is perhaps the most important part of the equation anyway.

We will, of course, be expecting updates.

 

[chevalier]

When getting right down to it, that is perhaps the most important part of the equation anyway.

Yes. No one wants to be hesitated about.

We will, of course, be expecting updates.

Well, so there’s that reputable art gallery with a nice exhibition of a modern but relatively not-eccentric painter. Also, a celebrated law professor originally from our country but lately residing on the antipodes is flying here this week, so might attend a lecture or two that he’ll be giving for the more ambitious students. That and a coffee should be a good start. Also, yesterday at the doctoral students gathering they told us about the ball on 26th Jan and we’re free to come with an accompanying person, so there’s that option for later if things go well. Will be phoning her today since the days so far have all been hectic and marked by tons of coffee and little sleep, grief and annoyance about work and other things making me not want to phone her in that kind of state.

 

[chevalier]

…And it didn’t work out. Long story short, the conversation went great, but in the end, yet a week later, today, I got a message saying “MyName, I was boarding the plane when you phoned. I’m in [City] now. Unfortunately, the time passed so fast for me in [OtherCity] that I haven’t managed to finish the paper, therefore I need to resign your kind invitation. I thank you heartfeltly once again and greet your from [Country]”. The message came at the exact time I was praying for assistance in this matter, although I found out only after leaving the church building. Whatever this means. I tried to phone her and ask how the flight was, perhaps creating some opportunity to suggest we went but left the ball early, but I couldn’t reach her. I’m not even sure I feel like replying, though the message does sound polite.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay - at this point, she sees you as a nice guy, but not someone to put ahead of work and other commitments. Bottom line, she’s not seeing you as possible romance or dating material, just at the moment. She sees you as one of those friends that one gets together with to kill time, when there’s nothing better to do.

Move on.

 

[aboverubies]

Prince Charming, Cinderella does not want to go to the ball. If she did, she would be in her ball gown, on your arm right now, not on a plane to another city.

You have asked for a translation from womanese. I claim to speak it so will attempt to give you my interpretation…although you have not liked my previous attempts. You won’t like this one either, sorry.

Her message was a polite brush-off. She is (((trying))) to gently let you down. She does not want to pursue a romantic relationship with you. She did not make time for even a quick coffee the whole time she was in your city. No one is that busy - this is a polite excuse that women give to guys whose feelings they don’t want to hurt. She had a second chance at a relationship with you after six long years and she let it go. If she had been pining over a missed opportunity with you all these years, she would have moved heaven and earth to make sure she didn’t miss this second chance.

You couldn’t reach her on the phone because she is not taking your calls. She is now wondering what she has to do for you to get the message. She has tried being polite, busy, distant, evasive, short, coarse and non-commital. The only recourse she now has is to pull out the verbal baseball bat and hit you over the head with it. I’m guessing if you push it one more time she’ll come out swinging. The friendship will end there.

Or you could get the message from my verbal baseball bat (sorry, but it’s better coming from a stranger over the internet than from her isn’t it?) and keep the friendship you have.

:tissues:

 

[chevalier]

Thanks. The plane was heading here - she was coming back from abroad. She had to fly a domestic flight between two cities in that country and then from the second one back to our country. She had told me about this journey (it’s an academic matter of sorts) before I told her about the ball - I would have invited her to some coffee and then come up with the invitation, but when it turned out she would be abroad for a week, so no coffee or anything, then I asked on the phone. I’m pretty sure she had the flights booked… on the other hand, she didn’t call me until I called her.

As for not texting or calling to set up a meeting, well, I took my sweet time because she said she would like to go, but then it took me ages to phone and set it when I was overloaded with work and other things (there were two weeks between the New Year’s Eve conversation and her flight). Before, I was in a relationship and didn’t phone or text or e-mail her unless for Christmas or Easter… So one can’t say I’m not at fault myself here.

But I’m guessing if she really cared, the talks would have been different. Thanks for your interpretation. I’m guessing it’s probably right. Either I’ll phone her under some pretext and try the field (last conversation she did give me her home number on her own accord) or just leave it in her court and see if there’s any move in the direction of actually going and having that coffee.

And if it doesn’t happen yet again, then I’ll probably be fed up enough.

 

[His_Ruby]

If those were my words, I would have been saying, essentially, that I preferred having coffee over cinema so we could actually sit together and talk instead of sitting aside of one another and being somewhat separated in our experience of watching a film.

Also… this reminds me back to my dating days of my husband. I really liked him but wasn’t sure if he was just being sweet or giving me the “I like you” back (though looking back it was obvious – but when you are IN the time/moment/emotions, you can’t be sure) so when we texted back and forth I was always careful not to sound over-eager.

Maybe that’s what’s going on!

 

[chevalier]

Umm… Didn’t phone. Decided I’m going and having fun and dealing with her later - if. It probably wasn’t a brush-off, and from what I know about her it sounded sincere (it reflects the noble tone she used early in our, our, our whatever). I suppose her earlier plan in the shape of the academic trip abroad took priority and she enjoyed it instead of cramming knowledge and spamming the paper in order to make time for me. Can’t fault her for that if I’m not her boyfriend (and even then it would be hard) and she isn’t head over hills for me. Just means she isn’t head over hills for me, as I said, which is hard to complain about, given the lack of contact for two years, season’s greetings excepted. It gives me pain when I think how much I might have hurt the sensitive 19 year old girl she was and I’d love to right that. If nothing comes out, I’ll just bring it up and apologise. That is something I think I owe her. As for her actually fancying me or not, I’m taking it with more distance and as I said, I can have fun knowing she’s not into me - it’s a friend for whom I have a soft spot, a guilty streak and memories of past romantic interest.

As for further action, I’ll wait a bit, phone her, set up a meeting, get the flowers, keep hands about me (both literally and figuratively), catch up with her, see if there’s a next meeting. Don’t really need to be hitting on her.

And at the moment I’m heading off for the party. I’m having such a splitting headache I can’t see straight without painkillers, but such trivilities do not stop me. Ha!

Thank you for all advice and support. I might have seemed unwilling to take your advice - but believe me I considered everything and found comfort in each post, including those that contradicted each other. I believe they’ve all contributed to the effect I’m seeing now.

And another thing, I’ll be throwing myself on big waters soon with academic work - articles, publications, dissertation, likely changing the field after that (criminal procedure to philosophy of law, since I already deal with rules of procedure and questions of truth), and today I got elected to another election board at university, meaning some social duties, so who knows where this all will throw me and what kind of people I’ll meet. In short - optimism and, believe or not, some joy I can’t explain. So, yeah. But not willing to forget a dear friend, sure not. So, thanks. And if you’re willing, I’ll keep you updated if something actually happens.

 

[aboverubies]

chevalier, the male ego is an amazing thing. You certainly deserve points for trying! Best of luck to you! :tiphat:

 

[dulcissima]

I don’t know that I would characterize it as male ego so much as eternal optimism, which is actually a pretty good thing.

 

[chevalier]

chevalier, the male ego is an amazing thing.

After all, there’s only one thing bigger than my intellect… chuckle

You certainly deserve points for trying! Best of luck to you! :tiphat:

Thank you! :tiphat:

 

[chevalier]

I don’t know that I would characterize it as male ego so much as eternal optimism, which is actually a pretty good thing.

Well, I had fun at the party and I realised part of the reason it weighed on me so much was that I was overworked, underslept and generally stressed. It changed when I had enough sleep and went to a party and actually had fun. And did I have fun! Even if the girl didn’t go with me. I actually met an acquaintance from my study area and danced it away until motion sickness and beyond.

 

[aboverubies]

After all, there’s only one thing bigger than my intellect… chuckle

 

[chevalier]

…And that thing is my modesty, nope?

 

[chevalier]

Here’s the update: The situation has become more confusing, in no small part because of me.

I tried to phone her today, after texting twice over the last time, and then I couldn’t pick up when she phoned back and I realised I had four unreceived calls from her! And then she was all happy we finally came through, and genuinely pleased to talk. No urging, no asking what business I had, just pleased to talk and also quite lively - asking me about everything, so I couldn’t even really talk. After a while she heared my mum and her husband urging me (I was helping mum pick a laptop) and said she wouldn’t be holding me etc, so great… she thought I phoned just to talk and maybe pay some regards, and she was happy with that. However, we started making the appointment and she was very decided to meet me. However again, she said she couldn’t on Thursday - and Thursday is Valentine’s. So I thought it was a guy. So then I said well, I was actually thinking of Thursday because I had official duties until Wednesday etc - she said something like:

“Nnnnoo… I have an outing set-up and even to the opera, so I’d rather not.”

I’m confused because it didn’t sounded like a date with a guy - and she said she’d rather not because of time etc, while she technically could (she would have if I had insisted, I think, and I also think she considered it for a while on her own), so I’m guessing at least it wasn’t a boyfriend. Maybe some guy or even other girls. We agreed preliminarily on Friday to be specified later, but after that I requested an official meeting to be moved to Wednesday. I phoned her and told her I moved that appointment and she took it well. She was all matter of fact and decided to go. I think her “so see you” in the end was quite flirtatious. My best friend who was walking next to me, said she must have been quite desperate if she agreed like that. I say there was only one desperate person there and that was yours truly, but it’s still probably a good sign somewhat. Especially that when I asked her when she was free, she said, “twelve… …maybe eleven thirty,” so it did look like she wanted to meet me and spend some time together, plus the flirtatious tone and the way she switched to a different language for a while was flirtatious too, I guess, so perhaps I’m not dead yet.

So there’s that meeting tomorrow at 11:30 and I’ll be getting some flowers and being charming but without being pushy or aggressive. If she tells me sorry, she isn’t interested and/or has someone else, I’ll say fine, I understand. We’ll see. Wouldn’t like to jump to conclusions and cross her out thinking it was a date with a guy while it wasn’t - or if the guy weren’t a boyfriend but some candidate. Well, enough babbling. Care to say a prayer or two for me? And especially for her. She might have been hurt quite a lot by how things turned out between us earlier on. I still feel guilty. Wouldn’t like to hurt her again or cause any mess. I just want her to be happy and myself, I’ll live.

And it’s time to start doing something and stop analysing, I guess.

 

[chevalier]

The other update is that according to both her and me, at least what we said, the meeting was very nice and it was great finally to meet each other. But there’s still the bad news that I don’t know where we stand.

To start with, I made a stream of mistakes. I minimised some, but not all. I also felt completely powerless. Sometimes I had no clue, sometimes I new great things could be said at that moment, but I was only able to tell how beautiful she looked and how great it was finally to meet. I got her a nice bunch of alpine cyclamens she loved and kissed me (cheek) for, kept saying mother and other ladies at dinner (where she was headed afterwards) would envy her. Body language was suggesting she was feeling comfortable and immersing in the conversation, there was a lot of looking, smiling and whatnot, I invited her already to a ball that will be in the spring season after lent, we walked through the city arm-in-arm with her holding the flowers in the free hand and me holding the other so she wouldn’t be cold… Guess you could say ideal date or something, except… not really. Just don’t know why I don’t feel happy when I probably should.

I don’t know what it is. Just that I wasn’t able to do or say anything particularly constructive, I said a lot of stupid things too. We were talking about witnessing weddings and she asked if I had plans, which was obviously about witnessing, I asked if she didn’t mean wedding plans, she said she wouldn’t ask such an indiscreet question (yes, I’m sure she was as crafty as I about it ) - and before I had already skipped my private life (“private life… not so great, not really great in fact” and on about academic stuff), so perhaps we became somewhat estranged at that point. Don’t know - still had an oblivious moment in a teahouse after a walk starting from the first cafe.

In fact, we even have the next place set and are supposed to add each other on Facebook, except I still can’t stop thinking about her Thursday (Valentine’s) opera outing and the fact I wasn’t being very memorable today - didn’t manage to be interesting at all. Saved the situation by letting her talk, so she really felt great, except she must have noticed she said a lot and I little.

Does anyone have any advice what I could do from this point? It would be rude to keep bothering her and I know from personal experience that being bothered is a huge turn-off. I can certainly find an excuse to phone her and make the conversation nice (I get along well with people), but I’m not sure I’d be able to get any conclusions since I didn’t even manage to ask about that opera today. Besides, I’m feeling so bad with all the mistakes. Eh. Perhaps then something on Valentine’s, since I seriously doubt a girl having a boyfriend would accept formal dance invitations (she accepted one in late Jan, but had to call it off, I invited her to another today), walk arm-in-arm and hold hands with a guy giving her flowers. But girls sometimes think in different ways, so I’m no longer sure of anything.

Eh, so, any opinions or advice?

Ah, and it turns out she’s Catholic and believing and practising. Not an uncritical follower, but someone who went to confirmation prep on her own decision at a bit later age (university), thought about things, stuck to the faith, had images of Jesus in her wallet. Obviously I was only able to say how good it was and how glad I was it turned out like that for her.

 

[dulcissima]

Chevalier,

Sounds like it went wonderfully really…she loved the flowers, kissed your cheek, and you strolled arm and arm through the city. My best advice to you is to keep at it and don’t over analyze each and every word. I know that is easier said than done, and I have a tendency toward that end myself. Just enjoy each opportunity to be together. At this point don’t be worrying about what it all “means”. Don’t stress about the Valentine’s day plans that she has, and I wouldn’t bring it up again other than to perhaps inquire as to whether or not she had a good time.

Just relax and enjoy her company and let her enjoy yours. Don’t worry about what you could have said or should have said or if every word and action from her has some hidden significant meaning. Just take things for what they are and have a nice time with her. I think if you have enough meetings pretty soon you’ll know one way or another what the possibilities with her are.

I think it all sounds pretty positive, but I do tend to be somewhat romantic and overly optimistic.

 

[Nechasin]

Does anyone have any advice what I could do from this point? It would be rude to keep bothering her and I know from personal experience that being bothered is a huge turn-off.

I will disagree with the above statement. It is not true for all women. Some women like to be pursued, the problem is knowing which is which.
The day that I asked my wife out for our first date, she was asked out by two other guys after me. She always said that she ought to at least go out on one date with them, and I told her that if that is what she wanted to do fine. But I arranged it so that she never had time to go on those dates. I talked to her everyday. Multiple evening a week we would go for walks. I don’t feel the least bit guilty because I know she was mine. That was 11 years ago and we have been married for 8 years.

 

[chevalier]

Dulcissima, thank you. Well, the last time I just had fun time with her and she with me and it didn’t lead to a romance - even if I did come to realise I had a crush on her. She on me too. It was obvious - just not to me at the meaningful time. This is why I’m hesitant about not making any concrete steps. Besides, I fear about having competition. We aren’t in constant touch and there are many guys with better access to her. She might become lost to me just because of that, not even because of the guys’ qualities or mine.

Nechasin, hehe, sounds like a fighter. It’s outside my power to prevent the Thursday arrangements from fruition, although I can make sure she has enough exposure to me to remember me and that would mean I’d have some presence in her mind while she were dealing with other guys. I’m actually going to phone her today, which isn’t really the best move technically, but I think I can offset this penalty by how I lead the conversation later.

Any more for me?