Nelson Mandela has died

[april32010]

I agree, especially as in the Daily Telegraph, the chief political commentator has a piece written, headlined as “Few human beings can be compared to Jesus Christ. Nelson Mandela was one”.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100249502/few-human-beings-can-be-compared-to-jesus-christ-nelson-mandela-was-one/

 

[Thinking10]

I did. American Third Position and Stormfront seem to like them. Everyone else, not so much.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

A survey for the period 1998–2000 compiled by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime ranked South Africa second for assault and murder (by all means) per capita and first for rapes per capita in a data set of 60 countries.[4] Total crime per capita was 10th out of the 60 countries in the dataset.

The United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute have also conducted research[5] on the victims of crime which shows the picture of South African crime as more typical of a developing country.

Murder

Around 50 people are murdered in South Africa each day.[6] The murder rate has increased by an order of magnitude in South Africa during the last 40 years,[7] though it has fallen from 66.9 per 100,000 people in 1994–95 to 37.3 in 2008–09.[8] From 2003–2009, crime decreased significantly according to official police data.[9] Between 1994 and 2009, the murder rate reduced by 50% to 34 murders per 100,000 people. The annual crime statistics released in 2011 show a continuing downward trend, except for rape, which went up by 2.1%.[10] Business Against Crime attributed the reduction to improvements in the criminal justice system and policing.[10] There have been numerous press reports on the manipulation of crime statistics that have highlighted the existence of incentives not to record violent crime.[11] Nonetheless, murder statistics are considered accurate.[8]

The country has one of the highest rates of rape in the world, with some 65,000 rapes and other sexual assaults reported for the year ending in March 2012, or 127.6 per 100,000 people in the country.[1] [14] The incidence of rape has led to the country being referred to as the “rape capital of the world”.

Crime against commercial white farmers is particularly high,[24] and the issue continues to attract significant media attention

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/9716539/South-African-farmers-fearing-for-their-lives.html

reuters.com/article/2012/11/29/us-safrica-farming-crime-idUSBRE8AS02120121129

google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hvdDqeceUVFER_K7MbLQHSIS4WVw?docId=90ccf1de-430a-479a-9592-295614d16b7f

 

[Geist]

I’m in South Africa right now. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Of all that the politicians have said, you pick out a quote from one insignificant small-time politician as the truthsayer. Americas revolution was godly, but not the French. Geez! God came down and told you so? I don’t need say more.

Which revolution was led by men who enshrined God in its formation and which yanked Him from the public sphere?

christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1701-1800/french-revolutionary-freedom-11630320.html

As early as August 1789, various church fees were abolished. When the Declaration of Rights of Man was issued, it merely tolerated religion, with the words “No one is to be molested for his opinions, even his religious opinions…” A decree in November 1789 declared all church property was at the disposal of the nation. A month later a vast amount of church property was ordered sold. Early the next year, religious vows were forbidden. Yet the National Assembly agreed to pay the priests’ stipends. When the Pope condemned the Declaration of Rights, half the priests swore to uphold the new constitution whereas the rest refused. They were considered anti-revolutionaries (called “non-jurors”).
Non-jurors were forbidden to preach in their churches. They could only hold mass. Many non-jurors therefore renounced state pay and embraced poverty. Increasingly they came under restriction and attack.
The anti-clerical faction must have been greatly pleased when legislation closed all religious houses on this day, August 4, 1792. Cluny, an abbey hoary with tradition, was destroyed. Other abbies became prisons. Later that month an oath of liberty and equality was devised to which all clergy must accede. On the 26th, with passions running high, a decree ordered all non-juring clergy out of the nation within two weeks. Only the sick and aged alone were excused. The penalty was exportation to tropical Guiana.
Before all was over, French priests were hunted, harassed and executed. A Deist god was proclaimed by Robespierre, and at last the Goddess Reason (represented by a prostitute) was made the official deity of a France whose daily, blood-crazed zigzags in policy were anything but reasonable. Some venerable Catholic buildings became the scenes of mocking rites. These developments serve to remind us that it is easier to lash out at political chains than to throw off the chains of sin.

Seems like the French revolution was certainly ungodly.

As for SA, it’s had a nasty case of murdered whites for some time, which I assume will accelerate shortly.

Didn’t some of the smarter ones flee to a place called Orania or something?

 

[RPRPsych]

Well said. We can certainly admire some aspects of Mandela’s work, but we don’t need to canonize him. And the ANC certainly does not have clean hands. Apart from their legacy of violence - which cannot be denied - there is also the scandalous AIDS denialism of Thabo Mbeki…

theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/27/south-africa-aids-mbeki

…and the private life of Jacob Zuma, which makes interesting reading (even Wikipedia won’t give him a break…)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma#Personal_life

The ANC has been condemned of late as a manifestly corrupt organisation by Archbishop Tutu who expressed concerns that it bears little resembelance to the organisation he and Mandela joined. Mandela himself was expressing concerns in his last few years about endemic corruption within the ANC.

A very valid point. Corruption is the bane of many Asian and African political parties, even if they were associated with revered figures. Nehru’s Indian National Congress is about to get the boot in 2014 for exactly the same reason.

 

[RPRPsych]

The American revolution was a Godly one.

The French revolution was an ungodly one.

The latter statement is absolutely correct: the French Revolution was a deplorable exercise in brutality and anti-Catholicism.

While I wouldn’t claim that the American Revolution was “Godly” (it was a secular, not a religious, affair: I don’t think the British at the time stood for paganism), it was certainly not the mass purge and exercise in public terrorism that the French was.

 

[pnewton]

I’m in South Africa right now. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Of all that the politicians have said, you pick out a quote from one insignificant small-time politician as the truthsayer. Americas revolution was godly, but not the French. Geez! God came down and told you so? I don’t need say more.

While the French Revolution was bloody, vicious and ungodly, not all Americans are blind to the blood and evil on their own hands. We have had our own massacres, holocaust and evil.

If you are from South Africa, then you have my prayers and sympathy in this time of great loss to your country.

 

[One_point]

Well said. We can certainly admire some aspects of Mandela’s work, but we don’t need to canonize him. And the ANC certainly does not have clean hands. Apart from their legacy of violence - which cannot be denied - there is also the scandalous AIDS denialism of Thabo Mbeki…

theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/27/south-africa-aids-mbeki

…and the private life of Jacob Zuma, which makes interesting reading (even Wikipedia won’t give him a break…)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma#Personal_life

A very valid point. Corruption is the bane of many Asian and African political parties, even if they were associated with revered figures. Nehru’s Indian National Congress is about to get the boot in 2014 for exactly the same reason.

No one denies that the ANC (not mobs or any individuals in South Africa) used violence. What I’m objecting to is their classification as terrorists. Who determines just who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter? I would like to see an objective definition of terrorists that excludes the fighters of the American war of independence but includes the ANC.

As to corruption and other faults, there are many in the ANC. Ask South Africans! Or read the satirical news articles here, You will see no one canonizes politicians or political parties here. I imagine that the Democrat and Republican and other parties, going by what I have read in this website posted by Americans have serious faults of their own as well and all parties in the world in politics. What I find puzzling is how any of this could justify the terrorism label. Particularly the poster who was listing South African crimes rates and so on. Perhaps there is more than one conversation going on and I am simply missing it?

As a catholic, and human being, I never support abortion policies and criticize Madiba without reservation. He was, however, not a terrorist. Even international law has trouble classifying fighters of colonialists and racist regimes as “terrorists”. It recognizes the right of self-determination, a right proclaimed in the American Declaration of Independence, from which modern human rights law largely drew inspiration following the experience of the nazis and other vile governments who oppressed people in their own borders.

With the rise of terrorism of the Bin Laden sort whose aim is simply domination through terror, it has become even clearer why the hesitation post World War II to classify all armed struggles against colonialists and racist regimes together with the real terrorists that recent experience has introduced the world to. I study the international law of war, which include non-international ones (or civil wars if you will) and I know that governments generally have a policy of labeling ANY armed struggle against the regime “terrorism” to deny the resistance an equal footing in international law. It has to do with the concept of state sovereignty that many countries always want to protect, even if it includes somewhat tacitly supporting an oppressive regime.

 

[RPRPsych]

No one denies that the ANC (not mobs or any individuals in South Africa) used violence. What I’m objecting to is their classification as terrorists. Who determines just who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter? I would like to see an objective definition of terrorists that excludes the fighters of the American war of independence but includes the ANC.

Pax! All I’m saying is that

a. Nelson Mandela did many good things, but he wasn’t a saint.
b. Nelson Mandela was also involved in certain evil things, but he wasn’t a terrorist.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Can somebody help explain this? Pope Francis wrote about Nelson Mandela

paying tribute to the steadfast commitment shown by Nelson Mandela in promoting the human dignity of all the nation’s citizens and in forging a new South Africa built on the firm foundations of non-violence, reconciliation and truth

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-pays-tribute-to-nelson-mandela

My emphases

But Nelson Mandela did not promote human dignity for all of the country’s citizens because he signed into law a very liberal pro abortion law and said of abortion, ‘Women have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.’

waterstones.com/wat/images/special/pdf/9781846684470.pdf

Does Pope Francis not know that Nelson Mandea helped to legalise abortion?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Can somebody help explain this? Pope Francis wrote about Nelson Mandela

paying tribute to the steadfast commitment shown by Nelson Mandela in promoting the human dignity of all the nation’s citizens and in forging a new South Africa built on the firm foundations of non-violence, reconciliation and truth

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-pays-tribute-to-nelson-mandela

My emphases

But Nelson Mandela did not promote human dignity for all of the country’s citizens because he signed into law a very liberal pro abortion law and said of abortion, ‘Women have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.’

waterstones.com/wat/images/special/pdf/9781846684470.pdf

Apparently Nelson Mandela also promoted the use of condoms

Does Pope Francis not know that Nelson Mandea helped to legalise abortion?

Nelson Mandela has died and I want to be respectful in the wake of that, but like when other people die, you look back at what they did in their life

 

[_Abyssinia]

Can somebody help explain this? Pope Francis wrote about Nelson Mandela

paying tribute to the steadfast commitment shown by Nelson Mandela in promoting the human dignity of all the nation’s citizens and in forging a new South Africa built on the firm foundations of non-violence, reconciliation and truth

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-pays-tribute-to-nelson-mandela

My emphases

But Nelson Mandela did not promote human dignity for all of the country’s citizens because he signed a bill that legalised abortion and said of abortion, ‘Women have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.’

waterstones.com/wat/images/special/pdf/9781846684470.pdf

Does Pope Francis not know that Nelson Mandea helped to legalise abortion?

Nelson Mandela has died and I want to be respectful in the wake of that, and you can be respectful about people even if you may not agree with anything that they have done, but I do not understand Pope Francis’ comment that I pasted above considering what Nelson Mandela has done in regards to abortion

 

[One_point]

Pax! All I’m saying is that

a. Nelson Mandela did many good things, but he wasn’t a saint.
b. Nelson Mandela was also involved in certain evil things, but he wasn’t a terrorist.

I can accept that!

Pax!

 

[Geist]

The latter statement is absolutely correct: the French Revolution was a deplorable exercise in brutality and anti-Catholicism.

While I wouldn’t claim that the American Revolution was “Godly” (it was a secular, not a religious, affair: I don’t think the British at the time stood for paganism), it was certainly not the mass purge and exercise in public terrorism that the French was.

Thank you, but I was using the term “Godly” in that the goals and methods of the American Revolution were such as to protect as much human life, personal and religious freedom, dignity, property, and peace as possible.

The French revolution was the complete inverse and had not Mandela gotten time to cool off in prison it seems SA would have gone the same route; thankfully it did not and hopefully it knows peace forever and ever, though it is one of the most violent countries on Earth to begin with though this is not Mandelas fault.

 

[seekerz]

Can somebody help explain this? Pope Francis wrote about Nelson Mandela

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-pays-tribute-to-nelson-mandela

My emphases

But Nelson Mandela did not promote human dignity for all of the country’s citizens because he signed a bill that legalised abortion and said of abortion, ‘Women have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.’

waterstones.com/wat/images/special/pdf/9781846684470.pdf

Does Pope Francis not know that Nelson Mandea helped to legalise abortion?

Nelson Mandela has died and I want to be respectful in the wake of that, and you can be respectful about people even if you may not agree with anything that they have done, but I do not understand Pope Francis’ comment that I pasted above considering what Nelson Mandela has done in regards to abortion

You want to be respectful? It’s really, really easy. Just be respectful.

 

[RPRPsych]

Thank you, but I was using the term “Godly” in that the goals and methods of the American Revolution were such as to protect as much human life, personal and religious freedom, dignity, property, and peace as possible.

Got it.

 

[_Abyssinia]

You want to be respectful? It’s really, really easy. Just be respectful.

You can be respectful for the fact that somebody has died and still ask questions about their record. People question the record of people who died all the time.

 

[seekerz]

You can be respectful for the fact that somebody has died and still ask questions about their record. People question the record of people who died all the time.

Did I say you couldn’t? People do lots of things when a person dies.

 

[_Abyssinia]

12.08.13: Statement of Bishop Tobin on the Death of Nelson Mandela

Mandela’s Support of Abortion “Shameful”

(PROVIDENCE, R.I.)-The Most Rev. Thomas J. Tobin, Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Providence, today offered the following statement regarding the death of Nelson Mandela.
“Many people around the world and in our own nation are mourning the loss of former South African President Nelson Mandela. Indeed there is much to admire in Mandela’s long life and public service, particularly his personal courage and his stalwart defense of human rights.

There is part of President Mandela’s legacy, however, that is not at all praiseworthy, namely his shameful promotion of abortion in South Africa. In 1996 Mandela promoted and signed into law the “Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Bill” that, according to the New York Times, “replaced one of the world’s toughest abortion laws with one of the most liberal.”

While we pray for the peaceful repose of President Mandela’s immortal soul and the forgiveness of his sins, we can only regret that his noble defense of human dignity did not include the youngest members of our human family, unborn children.”

Dr. Day Gardner, President of the National Black Pro-Life Union concurred with Bishop Tobin’s sentiments. “It is really very sad,” Gardner told LifeSiteNews.com, “that Nelson Mandela was blind to the suffering of the smallest of his own people.” She added, “He had such a triumphant life fighting for civil rights, yet he failed to see unborn children as significant.”

Gardner and other leaders at the National Black Pro-life Union have worked tirelessly to have black civil rights leaders recognize the plight of unborn black children who are targeted by the abortion industry far more than children of other races.

According to official statistics, nearly a million unborn children have been killed in South Africa since President Mandela signed legislation in 1996 permitting abortion on demand two years after taking office. Same-sex ‘marriage’ was legalized in 2006, with Mandela having supported it long before its passage.

Another African-American pro-life leader Ryan Bomberger told LifeSiteNews.com that he has seen time and again “how people move from being oppressed to becoming the oppressor.” He asked, “How can you condemn the evil of apartheid and turn around and deem another group to be less than human?”

Bomberger has targeted African American civil rights leaders, and other liberal black leaders with the stark message that they should “Wake up! Your future is dying.” Like Mandela, many of these black leaders “partner with the most racist, eugenicist, killing organizations in the world,” he said.

lifesitenews.com/news/u.s.-catholic-bishop-calls-mandelas-support-of-abortion-shameful-black-lead

 

[kelvinf]

Can somebody help explain this? Pope Francis wrote about Nelson Mandela

news.va/en/news/pope-francis-pays-tribute-to-nelson-mandela

My emphases

But Nelson Mandela did not promote human dignity for all of the country’s citizens because he signed a bill that legalised abortion and said of abortion, ‘Women have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies.’

waterstones.com/wat/images/special/pdf/9781846684470.pdf

Does Pope Francis not know that Nelson Mandea helped to legalise abortion?

Nelson Mandela has died and I want to be respectful in the wake of that, and you can be respectful about people even if you may not agree with anything that they have done, but I do not understand Pope Francis’ comment that I pasted above considering what Nelson Mandela has done in regards to abortion

Maybe the Pope said that simply focusing on his good deeds as “most” people tend to do when someone dies.

 

[Tomdstone]

Hypocritical I agree, to consider Mandela’s supposed ‘violence’ in some sort of monocular vacuum that completely ignores the historical fact of apartheid - an obscene and insidiously evil system against which I know not a single American who would consider self defense a morally unjustifiable response.

I doubt that apartheid, segregation or separate but equal is an obscene or insidiously evil system. I don’t defend the abuses of apartheid or segregation, however, standing by itself as a method to promote peace in society between different cultures, I don’t see where segregation has to be insidiously evil. Where in the Bible or in a Church document does it say that segregation is insidiously evil. For example, in Belgium, at one time there was one university in Louvain, the Catholic university of Louvain which served both the Flemish and the French. However, it was found that this did not work peacefully and in the early 1970’s or late 1960’s or so, the Catholic university of Louvain split in two and segregated the Flemish speaking unit from the French speaking section. The Flemish Catholic university of Louvain is in Louvain, Belgium. The French speaking Catholic university of Louvain is in Louvain-la-neuve, a french speaking area of Belgium. I don’t see how anyone can say that this was an obscene and insidiously evil to segregate the French speaking unit from the Flemish speaking unit.
Segregation is simply a political method top promote peace by separating cultures and as such I don’t see where it is intrinsically evil as a method to promote peaceful coexistence of different cultures. Please show us where in the Bible this is condemned as insidiously evil.