Neo-Pagan Apologetics

[the_phoenix]

Dear IanCorrigan:

First off, let me join the others who have welcomed you here in appreciation of the polite manner of this discourse.

Having started reading this thread last night and continued this evening and read your most recent post … Paganism strikes me as quite utilitarian.

For instance, what struck me last night was how you made comments to the effect that “the gods seem to be happy with modern day sacrifices of bread and ale, poetry and song, silver and gold.” (Please note that while I’ve used quotation marks, I am paraphrasing rather than quoting directly, and feel welcome to correct any miscommunication.)

And what strikes me tonight is … Well, count up the number of times the word “work” or “works” appears in the post wherein you reply to cocot.

I’m not at all talking about the term “work” in the sense of the debate on whether we are saved by faith or works … that is a topic for another thread.

Rather, it seems to me that paganism involves man seeing how he can best use “the gods” in order to get blessings or a feeling of “contact with the divine” out of them, along with “the gods” using men in order to get worship out of them.

Does love figure into the pagan worldview? If so, how?

The Triune God Whom I worship, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is Love. He loves me perfectly, I being human love Him imperfectly, trusting that He can make up the difference where I am lacking.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Rogo]

JMJ + OBT​

Here are a few more on-line resources I thought you might enjoy tackling, Ian, as you continue your dialog with Christians:

Paganism and the Conversion of C.S. LewisThe God in the Cave by G.K. Chestertonread the whole book on-line: The Everlasting ManWho Do You Say I Am? Excellent well-researched free audio series on the New Age by Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. (13 hours total!)
I hope you find them interesting and/or helpful.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

Further to this one.

I can only endorse reading these great writers. Especially C.S. Lewis is good when he writes from his own experience as an atheist turned Christian, who all his life was a great lover of pagan mythologies. His take on the mythological element in the Christian faith is very surprising and illuminating.

Both Lewis and Chesterton show great enthusiasm for the “magical” and “mythological” in everyday life, and they argue that there is a place for these elements in their Christian faith, without watering down that faith.

 

[the_phoenix]

As they say in Middle Earth, Hail and Well Met, Rogo.

When you mention the conversion of CS Lewis and the element of mythology in the real world, J.R.R. Tolkien immediately comes to mind.

The following quote is from an article called “True Myth: The Catholicism of The Lord of the Rings.” The article, written by Joseph Pearce, appeared in the December 2001 issue of The Catholic World Report:

"After dinner the three men … [Lewis, Tolkien, and their friend Hugo Dyson] … went for a walk and discussed the nature and purpose of myth. Lewis explained that he felt the power of myths but that they were ultimately untrue. As he expressed it to Tolkien, myths were ‘lies and therefore worthless, even though breathed through silver.’

“No,” Tolkien replied, “They are not lies.”

"Tolkien argued that, far from being lies, myths were the best way of conveying truths which would otherwise be inexpressible. We have come from God and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily toward the true harbor, whereas materialistic ‘progress’ leads only to the abyss and to the power of evil.

“Building on this philosophy of myth, Tolkien and Dyson went on to express their belief that the story of Christ was simply a true myth: a myth that works in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened. Whereas pagan myths revealed fragments of eternal truth through the words of poets, the True Myth of Christianity revealed the whole truth through the Word himself. The poets of pagan antiquity told their story with words, but God, the omnipotent Poet, told the True Story with facts – weaving his tale with the actions of real men in actual history.”

– Catholic World Report
December 2001

 

[IanCorrigan]

Are there any absolutes in these “observable and logical laws” ?

• Divinity always manifests in multiple forms.
• Divinity desires relationship wih humans
• Divinity responds to offers of relationship from humans

I’m sure there are more.

What do you make of the observation that the majority of the world 's population believe in one god while you are in the minority?

My opinion is that the triumph of monotheism is the political triumph of colonialism. The world is monotheist (to the extent that it is) because both Christian and Muslim establishments worked hard to crush the institutions and traditions of old religions. Before the political conquests of the monotheist faiths, almost all the world was polytheist. All of africa, europe, north america, north asia and australia had tarditional religions that were polytheistic, and that were deliberately destroyed by military means by monotheist colonialism (or it’s marxist/atheist imitators, in the case of n asia).

However, hindus, buddhists, shinto, and all tribal religions are still polytheistic, and polytheism is returning to the west.

Ian

Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

Having started reading this thread last night and continued this evening and read your most recent post … Paganism strikes me as quite utilitarian.

Yes, I think many of us would proudly say so. We see religion as a means of dealing with life as we find it.

…it seems to me that paganism involves man seeing how he can best use “the gods” in order to get blessings or a feeling of “contact with the divine” out of them, along with “the gods” using men in order to get worship out of them.
Does love figure into the pagan worldview? If so, how?

A big question. There are many kinds of love. Paganism certainly seeks caritas between humans, and between humans and our spiritual allies. Ancient Pagan philosophy sometimes described eros as the principle that holds all the world together, and the erotic (in its philosophical sense as well as its more carnal one) is sometimes part of our worship as well. Agape is often aimed at the broadest of targets - all of nature, the whole world, even at the divine in our own soul, though it may also be used to seek union with a specific deity.

I would describe my relationship with any Deity as respectful and honorable, with those I work with more directly as affectionate, and with the few that are the gods of my hearth and heart as passionate and intimate. As in everything in polytheism, there are many ways of relating to the many gods, and it varies from instance to instance. Some Gods like love, some like courage, some like cleverness…

Ian

 

[cocot]

I am trying to understand your thinking, so again: Is the practice of religion a subjective truth then?
Does absolute truth exist in math or physics?

 

[dessert]

Having started reading this thread last night and continued this evening and read your most recent post … Paganism strikes me as quite utilitarian.

Yes, I think many of us would proudly say so. We see religion as a means of dealing with life as we find it.

…it seems to me that paganism involves man seeing how he can best use “the gods” in order to get blessings or a feeling of “contact with the divine” out of them, along with “the gods” using men in order to get worship out of them.
Does love figure into the pagan worldview? If so, how?

A big question. There are many kinds of love. Paganism certainly seeks caritas between humans, and between humans and our spiritual allies. Ancient Pagan philosophy sometimes described eros as the principle that holds all the world together, and the erotic (in its philosophical sense as well as its more carnal one) is sometimes part of our worship as well. Agape is often aimed at the broadest of targets - all of nature, the whole world, even at the divine in our own soul, though it may also be used to seek union with a specific deity.

I would describe my relationship with any Deity as respectful and honorable, with those I work with more directly as affectionate, and with the few that are the gods of my hearth and heart as passionate and intimate. As in everything in polytheism, there are many ways of relating to the many gods, and it varies from instance to instance. Some Gods like love, some like courage, some like cleverness…

Ian

And some gods like evil and lies and deception and will not return with life everlasting aand want to keep you blinded to the truth because they know if you begin to see what they really want which is your soul you will turn from them!
I’m glad you are reading the thread and it is hard to get back right away as I do try to soon.
My God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and He does not need me to exist because He always has from the beginning. I did not bring Him into existence by my belief. My belief is based on His existence as he said He is and always was and will be forever. Our God was the first before your gods. You have made up your gods. Now Ian just maybe we are right you have a lot to lose and less to gain if we are. If we are wrong we have nothing to lose right?
But what if we are right. and you are at your cross in the road and you do not chose the right path. Do you want to risk it ? You can have all the fruits of the Spirit including love agape with the one and only God that also gave his life for you can you say that about your gods? Yes, Jesus the Christ, He gave up His life for Ian just like for me, desert and all of us

“Thank you, heavenly Father, for your faithfullness. I surrender my life into your hands and trust that you will deliver on every word you have spoken to me.” word among us publ.

desert

 

[prodigal-sun]

prodigal-sun;1737021:

Point #1 There is only One God in the bible not plural!

Just because you say it is so does not make it so.

Let’s make it clear that as a Pagan I simply don’t accept the Bible as having any particular authority. Arguments from scripture just aren’t going to cut much ice.

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Well that is just goody for you Ian, but what I would like from you is proof of what you believe. As I stated earlier - Just because you believe it is so, does not make it true."

The reason why I included some Jewish and Christian history is to show that there is more than just faith that belongs to truth of Christianity in fact there is countless witnesses, writings, on going miracles. All you have is some sweet thoughts of how a rock is worthy of worship because of it’s spiritual nature. You have no proof to your faith only wishful thinking and the desire to be your own God!

Good luck with that but I’m afraid your argument does not hold any weight here on this forum!

Peace to you, and may the one true God open your heart to the truth of nature.
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[prodigal-sun]

In nature, all is a whirl of change, collision and competition. Order and chaos are lovers, not competitors - the whirl of chaos is the matrix from which Order arises, and into which any given form must return. No form is eternal, nothing endures forever, except the Great Dance itself.

If you know the eastern artistic model of the mandala, that might be helpful. A mandala is a collection of many different images and patterns, all placed together in one order. Many individuals, one great pattern, made by the interacting wills and deeds of the many beings.

Ian

I disagree, the chaos you claim is there is only chaos in the small mind of humans such as yours and mine. The pattern & order of the the physical is not ours to understand. That honor belongs only to the ONE who created it.

Chaos, is introduced by our own hand, as we allow chaos into our own lives we inject into our environment. It is through greed, lust, sloth, anger, envy, gluttony, and pride that seperates us from God and his creation.

Peace be with you in this Christmas season!

 

[IanCorrigan]

**Christianity is based on scripture and tradition that predates ancient eygpt. **

That’s simply false. Nothing in the Bible predates ancient Egypt.

**Then there is countless eye witness accounts **

Again, false. There are zero eye-witness accounts of Jesus outside of the Gospels, and those are highly suspect as eye-witnesses.

Well that is just goody for you Ian, but what I would like from you is proof of what you believe. As I stated earlier - Just because you believe it is so, does not make it true."

Every human culture that has not been militarily conquered by monotheist armies agrees that the divine takes many forms, and is present in all the world. That is the default position of the human understanding of religion, which monotheism has been fighting, with limited success, for 2500 years. It is up to monotheism to prove it’s strange claims, which contradict every natural observation of the divine.

Good luck with that but I’m afraid your argument does not hold any weight here on this forum!

So far, no-one has made even an effort to actually counter my arguments in my answer to to the original argument. My opinion is that polytheism is far more logical and reasonable than monotheism, and, so far, my arguments stand.

Ian

 

[Paganus]

“I compare what the Bible claims with what I plainly observe in the world - if the Bible doesn’t meet that standard, I reject it.”

Example, please.

“Plainly, there are many Gods worshipped by humans, so there’s no reason to accept the Bible’s claim that only one of them is worthy.”

I think this argument is missing something.

1. Many gods are worshipped by humans.
   Conclusion: The Bible does not have to be accepted.

I just know in my heart that you have more to say about this.

Otherwise:

1. Many shoes are worn by humans.
   Conclusion: Mountain climbers can wear high heels if they want to.

I don’t think so.

 

[Paganus]

In addition, a polytheist system usually includes a greater animism - the idea that all material things have a spiritual component. So, if all the divine is worthy of worship, as we say, then the spiritual component of all things - trees, streams, finely wrought pieces of art are also worthy of worship. We mnake no distinction of worthiness between the commonplace and the highest and wildest spiritual things.

Ian

Prove it. Worship my checkbook. Send me the fattened wallet of cash for sacrifice to my checkbook.

Or, if that’s not Druish enough, I have a big oak tree in my yard. Bow before my oak tree (general direction of North Carolina, USA would be acceptable)! Send it money!

 

[Paganus]

In nature, all is a whirl of change, collision and competition. Order and chaos are lovers, not competitors - the whirl of chaos is the matrix from which Order arises, and into which any given form must return. No form is eternal, nothing endures forever, except the Great Dance itself.

If you know the eastern artistic model of the mandala, that might be helpful. A mandala is a collection of many different images and patterns, all placed together in one order. Many individuals, one great pattern, made by the interacting wills and deeds of the many beings.

Ian

Do you mind if I ask: do you prefer the paintings of Alex Grey or Nybor? Just curious.

Also, have you ever tried to make one of those mandalas out of colored sand like the Buddhist monks do, or is that a little too disciplined for Neo-Pagans, what with the chaos and all?

In fact, I would greatly appreciate some information about what you actually believe and practice in real life, if that’s not too much to ask.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Paganus]

With this, I agree, entirely.

I think the Neopagan unwillingness to say ‘this is true, this other is false’ is more a result of timidity and a desire to avoid dogmatism at any cost than of any real intellectual conviction. One thing which seems to be difficult for humans is for reasonable people to disagree on fundamental things, and not decide to really fight about it. Neopagans are often disgusted with the history of religious movements of the last 1500 years or so, and desperate to arrive at a position that will prevent tham from becoming dogmatists as they (we) build our new Old Ways.

Here in our little apologetics corner, apart from socio-political needs, let us be logical, as we can. I agree - there cannot be both the One God of Abrahamic scripture, and the Many Gods as understood by the Athenians or Shinto. I hold with Many Gods

Ian

While we are settling things: what do you think? Can you
bring prosperity to your people by ritually killing one of the men of your group and burying him in a peat bog? Or does this technique require further testing?

Also, what is the neopagan take on the nonbloody sacrifice of the Catholic Mass? There’s a lot of wine and “cakes” in the Wiccan world, I hear - quelle coincidence!

But more interestingly, how do you feel about the concept that there is only ONE Priest and ONE Holy Sacrifice and that all the priests and Masses are really just one event taking place on a mystical plane outside of time and space, one unity, with all the angels and saints taking part together with the living souls here on Earth? Do you have any radical mystical stuff like that in your religion or is it all just bowing before trees and bonfire parties?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Paganus]

My opinion is that polytheism is far more logical and reasonable than monotheism, and, so far, my arguments stand.

Ian

I know I’m a late arrival to this conversation and I am posting a lot of questions all at once - I don’t mean to overwhelm you or anything, so take your time with your responses, I’m in no rush.

But I have to ask:

Given the greater reasonableness that you have experienced with polytheism: how do you feel about someone’s wife being tossed onto her late husband’s funeral pyre, should he happen to reincarnate before her? Good or bad? Why or why not?

Thank you for your patience!

 

[prodigal-sun]

**Christianity is based on scripture and tradition that predates ancient eygpt. **

That’s simply false. Nothing in the Bible predates ancient Egypt.

**Then there is countless eye witness accounts **

Again, false. There are zero eye-witness accounts of Jesus outside of the Gospels, and those are highly suspect as eye-witnesses.

Well that is just goody for you Ian, but what I would like from you is proof of what you believe. As I stated earlier - Just because you believe it is so, does not make it true."

Every human culture that has not been militarily conquered by monotheist armies agrees that the divine takes many forms, and is present in all the world. That is the default position of the human understanding of religion, which monotheism has been fighting, with limited success, for 2500 years. It is up to monotheism to prove it’s strange claims, which contradict every natural observation of the divine.

Good luck with that but I’m afraid your argument does not hold any weight here on this forum!

So far, no-one has made even an effort to actually counter my arguments in my answer to to the original argument. My opinion is that polytheism is far more logical and reasonable than monotheism, and, so far, my arguments stand.

Ian

So when did Abraham live, Moses and the people of God Have been around along time too. Their History certainly does predate Eygpt.

There are many writings on Jesus and Eyewitness accounts. They even happen still to this day. We have many miralcles and eye witnesses to miracles that happen every day. Witness after witness supports our faith. Whether you chose to believe them is choice (Suspect witnesses indeed).

On the other hand you are telling us that it is “far more logical” to believe in numerous deities each tending it’s own sheep. Ther is no room for God the creator, to much stuff for him to look after as if God is subject to space and time!

I’m afraid your argument does not stand, unless you call hope and wishful thinking proof of your countless Gods!

I still wish you peace in this Christmas Season and an year to come!

 

[IanCorrigan]

So when did Abraham live, Moses and the people of God Have been around along time too. Their History certainly does predate Eygpt.

You’re just not reading your Bible. Joseph goes down into Egypt, just a couple of generations after Abraham - certainly Egyptian civilization and its granaries didn’t just appear between the time of Abraham and that of Jacob. Likewise, you’ll recall that Moses was a prince in egypt - Egypt was a full-grown polytheistic civilization long before Moses was born, long before Jacob, long before Abraham.

**We have many miralcles and eye witnesses to miracles that happen every day. **

Yes, the Gods appear to us, today, as well.

Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

I compare what the Bible claims with what I plainly observe in the world - if the Bible doesn’t meet that standard, I reject it.
Example, please.**

The obvious example - the Bible claims there is only one true god, observation clearly shows many gods that answer man’s worship. Therefore I reject the Bible’s claim.
Ian**

 

[IanCorrigan]

Given the greater reasonableness that you have experienced with polytheism: how do you feel about someone’s wife being tossed onto her late husband’s funeral pyre, should he happen to reincarnate before her? Good or bad? Why or why not?

The ancient world was full of customs that moderns consider unpleasant. Animal sacrifice, child marriage, military conquest with the taking of slaves, etc have all fallen out of fashion.

Personally, I disapprove of suttee, just as I disapprove of the death penalty for heresy.
Ian

 

[IanCorrigan]

While we are settling things: what do you think? Can you
bring prosperity to your people by ritually killing one of the men of your group and burying him in a peat bog? Or does this technique require further testing?

Modern life has solved many of the problems that the ancients tried to solve with religious and magical methods. If I were an iron age religious specialist, without access to fertiliser, big plows, commercial harvesting, etc, I hesitate to say that I wouldn’t resort to bog-man type sacrifice. Nor do I assume that those sacrifices were in vain - we have no detail on any such tale, but I do assume that the Gods respond to sacrifices.

**Also, what is the neopagan take on the nonbloody sacrifice of the Catholic Mass? There’s a lot of wine and “cakes” in the Wiccan world, I hear - quelle coincidence! **

There were a variety of sacred meals in the ancient world - the eucharistic supper was not unique in jesus’ time, and it isn’t unique now. There was a trend away from animal sacrifice in the ancient world of jesus’ time - that was one reason that the ‘final sacrifice’ of the perfect human/divine victim, and the replacing of an actual sacrifice of the meat for the meal with a symbolic sacrifice of bread had a certain resonance for people of that age.

But more interestingly, how do you feel about the concept that there is only ONE Priest and ONE Holy Sacrifice and that all the priests and Masses are really just one event taking place on a mystical plane outside of time and space, one unity, with all the angels and saints taking part together with the living souls here on Earth? Do you have any radical mystical stuff like that in your religion or is it all just bowing before trees and bonfire parties?

If I begin to express my own mystical yearnings and insights in this forum, I will probably be accused of preaching. Please understand, all, that I can express my own spiritual perceptions without meaning it as part of an attempt to persuade - only as an attept to display a bit of what goes on in a Pagan heart

In the Druidic spiritual work I do these days, we make our holy places by lighting a Sacred Fire, and letting a cauldron of water stand symbolically for a Sacred Well, if we don’t have a real well to hand. When we come to the Fire, we come to the Center of the Worlds, the Crossroads where all things come together, and from which all roads lead. In that simple ritual center we are in unity with every center, and with the Fire in the center of the Gods’ Great Hall. Into this Fire and Well we pour the sacrifices of our devotion and aspiration, and from them we expect to draw the Blessings we seek. On another level, the Fire and the Water are in our souls as well - my heart is a hearth, my loins a source of deep strength. The divine Fire and Water flow and shine in me.

Neopaganism tends to accept the late Pagan doctrine of microcosm and macrocosm - that the pattern of the worlds is reflected and reprised in the soul of a human. All spiritual powers in the ‘objective’ world have their reflection in us. When I invoke, let us say, a Goddess of Wisdom, I might expect Her to ‘speak to’ me. Most of us will understand when I say that I think the Gods seldom speak aloud in poetry. Rather, I think the nearness of the Divine wakes in me that portion of myself which is the proper reflection of the Wisdom Goddess, and I hear that still, small voice within. If I carefully invoke, over time, a well-balanced pantheon of divine persons, I will waken all that balanced wisdom, love and strength in myself, as I grow in my relationships with the Gods.

Ian