Neo-Pagan views of the Christian God

[steg]

If you wish to provide some sources about Isis worship going underground and surviving until today, please do provide some sources.
By Archbishop Cyril, do you mean Cyril of Alexandria? How can you say his hand was stained with blood? He has been accused of the murder of a Pagan philosopher, true, but this is really unproven. He also engaged in some persecution of Jews, but it was as far as I know bloodless.

As to the sources for the Isis worhip, I’m in the process of writing a book on the subject, and want to keep the sources under wraps for now… it took a lot of digging to find, but they are there.

As to Archbishop Cyril… yes, of Alexandria… I’ll gather some resources and report back. Hypatia is the murder victim of whom you refer, and if memory serves me, the ‘blood and gold’ quote comes from a contemporary of Cyril…

S.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

First, Hinduism is not the oldest extant religion… Isiacism is, it dates to at least 2500 BCE and is already established by this time. The argument is made that Isis worshippers don’t exist anymore, or that it was revived, but the truth is that was forced underground after the anti-pagan (really anti-everything) proclamations of Theodosius I, and the mass murders by Christian monsters like Archbishop Cyril (who was made a saint with one hand stained with gold, and the other with blood!) There are the occasional ‘scandals’ where Isians are discovered, but we’ve been very careful.

pagannews.com/cgi-bin/traditions1.pl?160

What we now know as Isiacism was started by a witch in Dallas, Texas in 1974. Mass murders by Cyril of Alexandria ??? What???

And, lets see… a view of the Christian god by a Hellene… hmmm. First I’d have to ask… which one? The Old Testament god, JHVH… the son of El, whose consort was Asherah, and a member of the Heavenly Council… who ordered the deaths of innocent men, women, children, animals, etc., who commands an Angel of Death, Lying Spirits, and other unsavory characters? Or, is it the New Testament god who seems to have a kid, chilled out somewhat, but still seems to demand blood as payment or will chuck the whole kit-n-kaboodle into a fiery lake for eternity? Who seems powerless to stop this Satan character (or what he evolved into up to this point…) and suddenly decides to stop appearing to everyone like he did in the days of old? Either one is a poor choice for basing a religion on… as can be seen by the havoc, death and destruction he and his followers seem to leave in their wake.

1. They’re is no difference between the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament. It’s the same God.
2. son of ‘el’ and consort of ‘asherah’… reference please.
3. The Baal worshippers were far from innocent, if thats what your refering to.
4. Whoever said he was powerless to stop satan… speaking of powerless… who’s Isis again???.
5. Who said God stopped appearing. We have many apparitions in Christianity, God even manifests himself many times, even Mary the Mother of God, for example; Fatima, Lourdes, Zeitoun (you can see these pictures on the internet), Jesus’ messages to saint Brigitta, Jesus and Mary currently appearing to MyrnaNazzour in Syria. Countless Eucharistic miracles such as Lanciano, stigmatics such as Padre Pio and Myrna. etc…

My advice to non-christians? Don’t argue with them, don’t try to convert them, don’t do anything… except fight to keep their teachings out of our public schools, government agencies, and any place outside of their churches and homes, where it belongs.

Just out of curiosity, would you support the teachings of your religion to be taught at public schools?

 

[LutheranDK]

Ya know. If i was a pagan. I would worry move about my own faith than i would about
trying to hijack another ( by claiming that they stole from you.)
I give more credence to Scientologist. At least they know how the founder of their religion wanted them to follow their faith.
You say God sends people to hell for not loving him. Not so. he sends people there for not obeying him. I love my parents. They knew it. But if i disobeyed them i was punished. So i’m sorry you fail on that one.
Yes someone is lying to you. There are no pagan gods. Surely if the pagan gods saw that their faith was heading the way of the dodo bird they would have stepped in. As pagan gods seem to be the most vain mythical creatures man ever made up. Yes pagans are moving towards something. hell. The thing is about pagans is they are scared of the truth. But yet believe in a after life damnation etc… (Whats that you’re going to say pagans have no damnation? well what the hades is hades? and who is in it? ) But are too scared of The one real God. So like some traumatized child they make up this fantasy world to live in.
Our theologies don’t meet. They have nothing in common. So stop trying to give your religion credit with some lame attempt to cling onto the one true faith.

On behalf of Christians everywhere - I apologize for that rant (although there is ONE good point in there - why did Thor, Odin, etc, not step in when Scandinavia turned from them?).

Name-calling and adolescent ranting is not productive, and it does not glorify God.

Secondly: Hades is part of Greek, not Norse or Druidic mythology. There is, though, a place in Norse mythology called “Hel” (guess what English word developed from that?), but it is not comparable to hell. There is no pain, no punishment, no demons (except the “godess” of the underworld who carries the same name).
Everyone went to Hel. Both good and evil people. The ONLY exception, were those who fell in battle - they went to Valhalla instead.

The same, btw, holds true for the Greek “Hades” - everyone goes there. Both “sinners and saints” (to use an anachronistic expression)

 

[AnAtheist]

why did Thor, Odin, etc, not step in when Scandinavia turned from them?

Perhaps because they are not jealous and vengeful gods?

There is, though, a place in Norse mythology called “Hel” (guess what English word developed from that?), but it is not comparable to hell. There is no pain, no punishment, no demons (except the “godess” of the underworld who carries the same name).
Everyone went to Hel. Both good and evil people. The ONLY exception, were those who fell in battle - they went to Valhalla instead.

Even gods went to Hel, Baldr e.g. But there are other places in Norse mythology where the dead may go to, Folkwang e.g.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

That’s partly true… but not the entire story… Paganus / Pagani has multiple meanings… it can mean 'country dweller" but was also was a term used but soldiers to describe civilians… the term was, I guess you can say coined, borrowed, whatever… to be used by Christians (God’s Soldiers) against those who weren’t. Emperor Julian spurned the use of ‘Pagan’ and used instead ‘Hellene’, denoting the devotees of Hellenistic values. What the word means now, after being redefined 1600 years ago, doesn’t change what it used to mean. That’s like the word ‘atheist’, which was coined to describe christians, who didn’t believe in the many gods of the times, and was re-purposed by christians to mean those who believe in no gods at all.

We use the english language and not latin or greek, even though we get a lot of words from both sources. The consistent meaning of either heathen or pagan (and consistency in language is necessary to communicate) is "a person who believes or worships in a polytheistic belief system and not a monotheism (christianity, judaism, islam, sikh dharma,…) or hinduism, the later being more of a monistic pantheism. Hellene has and always meant “the free people” a proud title the people we commonly call Greek have always called themselves–to adopt it as religious identification is to confuse and obfuscate–the fact that Julian the Apostate did it is more evidence of his disreguard for truth (along with his atrocious hygiene and penchat for leading a disastrous campaign against Persia)

To claim a unbroken, hidden tradition of Isisism one has to be reminded of the claims of Gardener and Alexander–and the fact that modern Wiccans have to content themselves with subjective validation, not historical corraboration–and in terms of neo-pagan views of the Christian God, Christians claim historical validation and we are quite ready to show our evidence for such. As St. Paul wrote, if the Ressurection did not occur, the claims of our faith our worthless. We do NOT have the retreat postion of subjective validation.

 

[LutheranDK]

Perhaps because they are not jealous and vengeful gods?

Strawman…

Even gods went to Hel, Baldr e.g. But there are other places in Norse mythology where the dead may go to, Folkwang e.g.

I stand corrected. Norse mythology is not my best subject - maybe because my knowledge of it is limited to the few lessons we had in Elementary School.
However, to get to Fólkvangr, you had to die in battle as well. If you didn’t, you went to hel - without exceptions (that i know of…)

 

[cyberwolf001]

Perhaps because they are not jealous and vengeful gods?

This one has been answered so many time shere an in Ian’s thread I am starting to wonder if the answers are just being ignored or if the ones that keep asking are simply unable to comprehend he answers.

Even gods went to Hel, Baldr e.g. But there are other places in Norse mythology where the dead may go to, Folkwang e.g.

Not to mention the land as an ancestral spirit the list is longer than my arm.

 

[LutheranDK]

Not to mention the land as an ancestral spirit the list is longer than my arm.

I know of no other afterlife in Norse mythology than those that have been mentioned?

 

[GeorgeSword]

I know of no other afterlife in Norse mythology than those that have been mentioned?

Neither do I. I have read some of the Eddas for entertainment (they are good stories, after all).

 

[NoWings]

On behalf of Christians everywhere - I apologize for that rant (although there is ONE good point in there - why did Thor, Odin, etc, not step in when Scandinavia turned from them?).

I wouldn’t answer for Thor, but Othinn? He’s the type that would put on his cloak and do a walkabout with a smirk on his face to see what the young upstart from Palestine can do, all the while keeping back in the shadows and chuckling.

 

[steg]

pagannews.com/cgi-bin/traditions1.pl?160

What we now know as Isiacism was started by a witch in Dallas, Texas in 1974. Mass murders by Cyril of Alexandria ??? What???

Interesting article… but this is refering to a specific person’s recreation of a faith… like Luther did.

1. They’re is no difference between the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament. It’s the same God.

1. son of ‘el’ and consort of ‘asherah’… reference please.

1. The Baal worshippers were far from innocent, if thats what your refering to.

1. Whoever said he was powerless to stop satan… speaking of powerless… who’s Isis again???.

1. Who said God stopped appearing. We have many apparitions in Christianity, God even manifests himself many times, even Mary the Mother of God, for example; Fatima, Lourdes, Zeitoun (you can see these pictures on the internet), Jesus’ messages to saint Brigitta, Jesus and Mary currently appearing to MyrnaNazzour in Syria. Countless Eucharistic miracles such as Lanciano, stigmatics such as Padre Pio and Myrna. etc…

Answering these would just become an argument… I see a huge difference in the god described in the OT and the one in the NT. The Goddess is very active in my life, whereas yours is not… so its a matter of perspective, I guess. As to references, they are forthcoming as requested in earlier posts (very busy atm, and haven’t been able to sit and gather them)… here’s a quick ref, tho:

Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):

Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
—Jeremiah 7:17–18

… to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem …
—Jeremiah 44:17

Image on the piece of pottery found at Quntilat 'Ajrud above the inscription "Berakhti etkhem…"Figurines of Asherah are strikingly common in the archaeological record, indicating the popularity of her cult from the earliest times to the Babylonian exile. More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon inscribed “Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato” (Hebrew: בירכתי אתכם ליהוה שומרון ולאשרתו‎) was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Quntilat 'Ajrud (Hebrew “Horvat Teman”) in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975, prior to the Israeli withdrawal from this area. This translates as: “I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah” (or perhaps “… by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah”, if “Shomron” is to be read “shomrenu”). Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: “Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!”.

As to El… I need to find the reference to the Heavenly Council in the Psalms(?)… I don’t have a bible handy ATM…

Just out of curiosity, would you support the teachings of your religion to be taught at public schools?

No… it doesn’t belong there… I spoke with my child at home and in the temple. I explained what science taught along side my personal beliefs, as well as what he’d encounter in a christian dominated society, and what other religions believed. When he grew to adulthood, he made his choices, which I accepted.

 

[LutheranDK]

I wouldn’t answer for Thor, but Othinn? He’s the type that would put on his cloak and do a walkabout with a smirk on his face to see what the young upstart from Palestine can do, all the while keeping back in the shadows and chuckling.

LOL - touché

 

[AnAtheist]

I know of no other afterlife in Norse mythology than those that have been mentioned?

At least it is said that Forseti judges men and gods in Glitnir which is one of the palaces in Asgard like Folkwang and Walhall (ok that’s more a hall within a palace). The dead can obviously reach various parts of Asgard so it’s a fair assumption that maybe all of Asgard is somehow accessible.

 

[cyberwolf001]

I wouldn’t answer for Thor, but Othinn? He’s the type that would put on his cloak and do a walkabout with a smirk on his face to see what the young upstart from Palestine can do, all the while keeping back in the shadows and chuckling.

I’ll hunt it down but there was a book about a man encountering Odin in Valhalla in modernish (early 20th late 19th century) times and he told them he did exactly that.

In fact here it is, use the look inside option to see the story of Thor’s Oak and Bonifece from Odin’s mouth.

Link

 

[IanCorrigan]

I know of no other afterlife in Norse mythology than those that have been mentioned?

The term ‘Hel’ is from roots that mean ‘hidden’ and refers to a variety of unseen locales where the Dead may dwell. On the most mythic level there is Helheim where Hela, Goddess of the Dead has her hall, and where everyone receives a homely welcome. Of course there is Asgard and the halls there where the heroes go - Valholl and Folksvang. Interestingly, at least one account places these halls, and the eternal battle-and-feasting fun that goes on there, in a region of the Underworld, where we stereotypically place Helheim. As a third choice we have various accounts of families who plan to make their afterlife residence in some nearby mountain or hill, where their ancestors have a hall. Also, some kings who were buried (i.e. hidden) in a tumulus were said to remain in that mound, setting up their court and receiving offerings from the folk. The best summary of all this is by Hilda Ellis: “The Road to Hel”, readily available on-line.
So, everyone more or less went to ‘hel’ - the hidden place - but there were many kinds of afterlife available, and very little of it had to do with the moral character of the dead.
As usual in a polytheistic system, there is no black and white outcome for the Dead, but rather a set of options that vary depnding on the individual’s fate.

 

[GeorgeSword]

Interesting article… but this is refering to a specific person’s recreation of a faith… like Luther did.

Answering these would just become an argument… I see a huge difference in the god described in the OT and the one in the NT. The Goddess is very active in my life, whereas yours is not… so its a matter of perspective, I guess. As to references, they are forthcoming as requested in earlier posts (very busy atm, and haven’t been able to sit and gather them)… here’s a quick ref, tho:

Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):

Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
—Jeremiah 7:17–18

… to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem …
—Jeremiah 44:17

Image on the piece of pottery found at Quntilat 'Ajrud above the inscription "Berakhti etkhem…"Figurines of Asherah are strikingly common in the archaeological record, indicating the popularity of her cult from the earliest times to the Babylonian exile. More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon inscribed “Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato” (Hebrew: בירכתי אתכם ליהוה שומרון ולאשרתו‎) was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Quntilat 'Ajrud (Hebrew “Horvat Teman”) in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975, prior to the Israeli withdrawal from this area. This translates as: “I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah” (or perhaps “… by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah”, if “Shomron” is to be read “shomrenu”). Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: “Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!”.

As to El… I need to find the reference to the Heavenly Council in the Psalms(?)… I don’t have a bible handy ATM…

No… it doesn’t belong there… I spoke with my child at home and in the temple. I explained what science taught along side my personal beliefs, as well as what he’d encounter in a christian dominated society, and what other religions believed. When he grew to adulthood, he made his choices, which I accepted.

Now I see what you’re trying to get at. It isn’t working. You’re trying to say that the Hebrews were originally polytheists, who picked one god out of their pantheon and decided to follow him? No. They added other gods into their beliefs (Baal is particularly noted in the Scriptures). It was not so originally. El is Jesus, Jesus is El. YWVH is El, El is YHVH. They are all names for one and the same.

 

[lumenorientale]

Now I see what you’re trying to get at. It isn’t working. You’re trying to say that the Hebrews were originally polytheists, who picked one god out of their pantheon and decided to follow him? No. They added other gods into their beliefs (Baal is particularly noted in the Scriptures). It was not so originally. El is Jesus, Jesus is El. YWVH is El, El is YHVH. They are all names for one and the same.

AND…the practice of “baking cakes for the Queen of Heaven” was a later addition that was frowned upon. The scripture that Steg quoted points to that.

 

[GeorgeSword]

Interesting article… but this is refering to a specific person’s recreation of a faith… like Luther did.

Answering these would just become an argument… I see a huge difference in the god described in the OT and the one in the NT. The Goddess is very active in my life, whereas yours is not… so its a matter of perspective, I guess.

And where do you get that God is not active in our lives? He certainly is in mine.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Now I see what you’re trying to get at. It isn’t working. You’re trying to say that the Hebrews were originally polytheists, who picked one god out of their pantheon and decided to follow him? No. They added other gods into their beliefs (Baal is particularly noted in the Scriptures). It was not so originally. El is Jesus, Jesus is El. YWVH is El, El is YHVH. They are all names for one and the same.

Once again, this is a mythic perspective with nothing in history or scholarship tp support it. All peoples known to history have been polytheist to begin with. A very few of them went with the strange notion of monotheism, and those happened to become politically and militarily powerful, resulting in the spread of monotheism.
There is no doubt in any archeologist’s mind that the tribes of Israel and Judea were originally polytheist.

 

[GeorgeSword]

Once again, this is a mythic perspective with nothing in history or scholarship tp support it. All peoples known to history have been polytheist to begin with. A very few of them went with the strange notion of monotheism, and those happened to become politically and militarily powerful, resulting in the spread of monotheism.
There is no doubt in any archeologist’s mind that the tribes of Israel and Judea were originally polytheist.

I think it reaches back a bit further than recorded history, and into pre-history. Can it be backed up by hard facts? No, and I don’t claim it can be, either. I believe that the Scriptures are inspired, and evidence of that has been presented many times and I can present it again if need be.
Now, assuming that the Scriptures are inspired, we then have a reliable record of the very distant past, albeit with several interpretations. No matter how we read it, we can establish that, according to it, man knew God, man sinned, man subsequently rejeted God and man forgot God. It was not until later that God established a new covenant with man under Abraham that He became known to us again, and He has never been forgotten.