Neo-Pagan views of the Christian God

[cyberwolf001]

Over on this thread Link. The topic turned to how many Polytheist feel about the Christian God. One poster suggested splitting the thread.

So here we go.

lumenorientale:

Hmmm…so by the process of deduction you are saying that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a liar–or doesn’t exist. Am I right in assuming this? Now, you are free to believe what you want, as I am free to totally disagree with you on this point.

Well either him or the people that wrote his books. This is due to my views that the
Neo-Pagan gods are real. Obviously SOMEONE is lying to us.

This is common misperception…

Well either he made hell and will send you there for not loving him or he didn’t. Word games aside that is how it is.

however, in the theology I espouse, God IS love, and if you choose not Love itself, you choose something that lacks the purest of loves, the very Beginning and Meaning of all love. Because Love is Life, then the choice against Love is, logically, Death. Hence the verse in Exodus “Choose life, that you may live!”

Forum rules forbid me to go to harsh on this. Let us just say it sounds like a creepy stalker vs. the real love.

Now, of course, this is a topic for an entirely different thread, possibly titled “Why is the Judeo-Christian God such a grumpy-pants meanie?” I don’t want to spin your thread here totally off base.

You know part of why I started the orginal thread was to prove that dispite the attempts to paint us as such. Pagans are not in some adolesent rebellion against God, so please mind the baby talk. We are moving toward something not away. If you get my meaning.

---

Disclaimer: Not attempting to convert or proslytize. Just a discussion on how our theologies meet and see each other.

 

[ljubim]

You know part of why I started the orginal thread was to prove that dispite the attempts to paint us as such. Pagans are not in some adolesent rebellion against God, so please mind the baby talk. We are moving toward something not away. If you get my meaning.

Hmmm… actually I’d do my research if I were you. You’ll find that polytheism evolved FROM original monotheism.

Not adolescent? Sorry, but your post contradicts this.

God Bless.

 

[TheosisM]

do Neo-Pagans believe that the Christian God exists?

 

[cyberwolf001]

Hmmm… actually I’d do my research if I were you. You’ll find that polytheism evolved FROM original monotheism.

Could you point me to a few? The secular, polythesitic and even some monotheistic sources I’ve read all claim it was the other way around.

When I was in RCIA for example I was taight Hinduism is the worlds oldest religion and it became the panthesitic montheistic thing we know now only revently in response to Christian and Muslim thought.

Not adolescent? Sorry, but your post contradicts this.

How so and may Thor bless you.

do Neo-Pagans believe that the Christian God exists?

The answer ranges from “no” to "yes and he is a very evil diety that wishes to destroy the other Gods and render humanity into a slave race.

In betweeners include a nice enough God who’s followers are a little crazy. This would be the ones with bumper stickers saying I got no problem with Jesus it’s his fan club I cannot stand.

 

[ibkc]

In betweeners include a nice enough God who’s followers are a little crazy. This would be the ones with bumper stickers saying I got no problem with Jesus it’s his fan club I cannot stand.

Of course, when it comes to neo-pagans, that’s definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Of course, when it comes to neo-pagans, that’s definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Depending on your denomination of course! For example I’ll never judge a Catholic based on the actions of the local Non-denom up the road from me.

 

[TheosisM]

The answer ranges from “no” to "yes and he is a very evil diety that wishes to destroy the other Gods and render humanity into a slave race.

In betweeners include a nice enough God who’s followers are a little crazy. This would be the ones with bumper stickers saying I got no problem with Jesus it’s his fan club I cannot stand.

Thank you. Do Neo-pagans, in general, that accept the existence of other gods outside of their personal pantheon believe that they exist as their followers see them? Put another way, for those Hellenic Recons that accept the existence of Roman or Nordic gods, how do they fit all these sometimes contradictory gods into their worldview? It seems as if Neo-pagans that believe that all gods of all peoples exist have to do some re-imagining of those other gods, essentially denying their existence (or at least how their followers say they exist).

 

[cyberwolf001]

Thank you. Do Neo-pagans, in general, that accept the existence of other gods outside of their personal pantheon believe that they exist as their followers see them? Put another way, for those Hellenic Recons that accept the existence of Roman or Nordic gods, how do they fit all these sometimes contradictory gods into their worldview? It seems as if Neo-pagans that believe that all gods of all peoples exist have to do some re-imagining of those other gods, essentially denying their existence (or at least how their followers say they exist).

You’d be suprised really. The view is for example there is more than enough Thunderstorms for Thor, Jupiter ect. and which God (or could be both) is behind this storm would be an interesting point of discussion but at the end of the day it doesn’t much matter.

I remember once when working as a bag boy on a hot (Heat index over 103) day I kept praying to Thor for a rainstorm and let me tell you I got my wish! It poured for the rest of my shift so thick and strong I couldn’t see two feet infront of me. Yes I still had to get taking bags out but trust me all of the bag boys including myself where greatful for the rain!

Now the argument could be made some other God granted my request. My Christian friends, Catholic and Protestant, always either A) Say it is coincedence or B) say it is really Jesus answering my prayers. Although why he’d do that when he knows it just increase me faith in my Gods is beyound me…

Frankly all I know is someone is accepting my offerings and appearing to me with advice and my life is starting a slow turn for the better. While my Christian friends keep praying for my life to be worse and worse till I give in and submit to Jesus.

I apologize if I rambled. In the end you might say this is a mystery of our Pagan Faith

 

[TheosisM]

Thanks for explaining, I do find Neo-paganism interesting, and have been aware of it for a number of years (I did dabble in Wicca in high school, I won’t lie). Were you ever Christian? One thing I’ve noticed a number of former Christian Neopagans say is that, their “new” gods are more…“active” to them then when they were Christian, I assume referring to answer prayers/miracles/spells/etc. What do you think?

 

[cyberwolf001]

Thanks for explaining, I do find Neo-paganism interesting, and have been aware of it for a number of years (I did dabble in Wicca in high school, I won’t lie). Were you ever Christian?

Actually yes Tiber Swim team 07. That is a story in and of itself. Let’s just say the Church as it is and the one I was joining are two different things and I understand they REALLY tightened up the program after I left.

A few examples: Gay marriage, Okay just not here. It doesn’t matter your religion you can make it to Heaven, it’s just easier here. An a strong emphasis on social justice.

Not as bad as another fellow. I just up and left. He leaves, comes back, leaves after slandering the Priest, back, left and always complaining. I even told him love it or leave it.

One thing I’ve noticed a number of former Christian Neopagans say is that, their “new” gods are more…“active” to them then when they were Christian, I assume referring to answer prayers/miracles/spells/etc. What do you think?

Let me put it like this. There is a standing warning: Make sure you REALLY want what your praying for chances are you will get it. Make sure you REALLY want this Gods/Spirits attention you will get it and you better be ready to do your end of the comitiment.

Oddly when I went into RCIA up to when I left my life got worse and worse. Lost job, lost girlfriend, lost friends, couldn’t find work, sick sick SICK, father riding me to find a job, attempts to return to college failed ect. This kinda thing happens everytime I so much as make the sign of the cross or say a Hail Mary. To the point I did the sign of the cross out of habit as an ambulance rushed past lights blazing and my car broke down again! (It broke down all the time as a Catholic and in RCIA. When I left no problems till then).

As a Druid I’ve found work, me and ex are talking and might reunite. I got offeres from friends wanting to help me get on my feet. I am healthier and managed to find a dentist to fix a horrible cavity I’ve had and a doctor that is helping me with my heath issues. These are things I couldn’t afford but found some that work cheap and let you make payments.

 

[Siddhartha]

When I was in RCIA for example I was taight Hinduism is the worlds oldest religion and it became the panthesitic montheistic thing we know now only revently in response to Christian and Muslim thought.

Leaving aside the question of what religion is oldest, the Hindu texts (Vedas, Upanishads, especially) date at least a thousand years before Christianity, and in them what you’ll find is the acknowledgement of the existence of powerful spiritual beings (devas and brahmas, or “Gods”), such as Indra or Agni. Even the Gods, though, are not ultimate: the ultimate is Brahman, the underlying source of All, Gods and humans alike. Brahman transcends the cosmos, and it is to be neither identified with, nor separated from, the cosmos. Western terms like “pantheism” and “monotheism” don’t apply here.

 

[InquisitiveCath]

Leaving aside the question of what religion is oldest, the Hindu texts (Vedas, Upanishads, especially) date at least a thousand years before Christianity, and in them what you’ll find is the acknowledgement of the existence of powerful spiritual beings (devas and brahmas, or “Gods”), such as Indra or Agni. Even the Gods, though, are not ultimate: the ultimate is Brahman, the underlying source of All, Gods and humans alike. Brahman transcends the cosmos, and it is to be neither identified with, nor separated from, the cosmos. Western terms like “pantheism” and “monotheism” don’t apply here.

He’s right. The ancient Indian Rishi’s often attempted to grapple with “the Self” which was transcedentally identified with a unified Cosmic Self. Much of Upanishadic literature is devoted into trying to tease out the ramifications of this “thing” that’s necessary for the existence of all other things.

You can see the same thing occur in Neoplatonism, Plato’s “The One” hangs above all other conceptions of the Gods of Late Antiquity. I’m reminded of what Pope Benedict XVI wrote when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger:

Whenever the question arose to which god the Christian god corresponded to, Zeus or Hermes or Dionysus or some other god, the answer ran: To none of them. To none of the gods to whom you pray but solely and alone to him to whom you do not pray, to the highest being your philosophers speak of.

When we say God, we do not mean or worship any of this(these types of things); we mean only Being/Logos itself, what the philosophers have expounded as the ground of all being, as the God above all powers - that alone is our God.

 

[Siddhartha]

Oddly when I went into RCIA up to when I left my life got worse and worse. Lost job, lost girlfriend, lost friends, couldn’t find work, sick sick SICK, father riding me to find a job, attempts to return to college failed ect. This kinda thing happens everytime I so much as make the sign of the cross or say a Hail Mary. To the point I did the sign of the cross out of habit as an ambulance rushed past lights blazing and my car broke down again! (It broke down all the time as a Catholic and in RCIA. When I left no problems till then).

On one occasion, St. Teresa of Avila complained to God about her mistreatment from so many different people. God replied to her saying “That is how I always treat my friends”. With good humour, St. Teresa replied, “That must be why you have so few friends”.

 

[latin_rite]

Over on this thread Link. The topic turned to how many Polytheist feel about the Christian God. One poster suggested splitting the thread.

So here we go.

Well either him or the people that wrote his books. This is due to my views that the
Neo-Pagan gods are real. Obviously SOMEONE is lying to us.

Well either he made hell and will send you there for not loving him or he didn’t. Word games aside that is how it is.

Forum rules forbid me to go to harsh on this. Let us just say it sounds like a creepy stalker vs. the real love.

You know part of why I started the orginal thread was to prove that dispite the attempts to paint us as such. Pagans are not in some adolesent rebellion against God, so please mind the baby talk. We are moving toward something not away. If you get my meaning.

---

Disclaimer: Not attempting to convert or proslytize. Just a discussion on how our theologies meet and see each other.

Ya know. If i was a pagan. I would worry move about my own faith than i would about
trying to hijack another ( by claiming that they stole from you.)
I give more credence to Scientologist. At least they know how the founder of their religion wanted them to follow their faith.
You say God sends people to hell for not loving him. Not so. he sends people there for not obeying him. I love my parents. They knew it. But if i disobeyed them i was punished. So i’m sorry you fail on that one.
Yes someone is lying to you. There are no pagan gods. Surely if the pagan gods saw that their faith was heading the way of the dodo bird they would have stepped in. As pagan gods seem to be the most vain mythical creatures man ever made up. Yes pagans are moving towards something. hell. The thing is about pagans is they are scared of the truth. But yet believe in a after life damnation etc… (Whats that you’re going to say pagans have no damnation? well what the hades is hades? and who is in it? ) But are too scared of The one real God. So like some traumatized child they make up this fantasy world to live in.
Our theologies don’t meet. They have nothing in common. So stop trying to give your religion credit with some lame attempt to cling onto the one true faith.

 

[latin_rite]

On one occasion, St. Teresa of Avila complained to God about her mistreatment from so many different people. God replied to her saying “That is how I always treat my friends”. With good humour, St. Teresa replied, “That must be why you have so few friends”.

In a way you’re right. Gods friends are much more true. More selective. More meaning ful. Where as budda and the “gods” of pagans friendsm seem to be more like the friends one has on facebook

 

[ljubim]

Could you point me to a few? The secular, polythesitic and even some monotheistic sources I’ve read all claim it was the other way around.

When I was in RCIA for example I was taight Hinduism is the worlds oldest religion and it became the panthesitic montheistic thing we know now only revently in response to Christian and Muslim thought.

Check out Wilhelm Schmidt’s work.(there’s a lot more, he’s just the only one I remember at the moment)

The problem with today’s so-called religion evolution courses is that there is never any evidence of any culture ever progressing along the ladder (spiritism, pantheism, monotheism, however it goes). And they use the modern day Aboriginees as an example of how ancient peoples were. But they aren’t ancient peoples, they’ve changed just as we have. Just because they’re less civilized doesn’t make them a good model. Basically the whole idea of this religious evolution has scant evidence to back itself up.

Curious… do you worship the ancient German-European gods? Isn’t that what thor is? Or just a nice little mixture of your favorites?

 

[lumenorientale]

Actually yes Tiber Swim team 07. That is a story in and of itself. Let’s just say the Church as it is and the one I was joining are two different things and I understand they REALLY tightened up the program after I left.

A few examples: Gay marriage, Okay just not here. It doesn’t matter your religion you can make it to Heaven, it’s just easier here. An a strong emphasis on social justice.

Not as bad as another fellow. I just up and left. He leaves, comes back, leaves after slandering the Priest, back, left and always complaining. I even told him love it or leave it.

Let me put it like this. There is a standing warning: Make sure you REALLY want what your praying for chances are you will get it. Make sure you REALLY want this Gods/Spirits attention you will get it and you better be ready to do your end of the comitiment.

Oddly when I went into RCIA up to when I left my life got worse and worse. Lost job, lost girlfriend, lost friends, couldn’t find work, sick sick SICK, father riding me to find a job, attempts to return to college failed ect. This kinda thing happens everytime I so much as make the sign of the cross or say a Hail Mary. To the point I did the sign of the cross out of habit as an ambulance rushed past lights blazing and my car broke down again! (It broke down all the time as a Catholic and in RCIA. When I left no problems till then).

As a Druid I’ve found work, me and ex are talking and might reunite. I got offeres from friends wanting to help me get on my feet. I am healthier and managed to find a dentist to fix a horrible cavity I’ve had and a doctor that is helping me with my heath issues. These are things I couldn’t afford but found some that work cheap and let you make payments.

Well, in the Catholic view, we would think that you were under a demonic attack BECAUSE you were becoming Catholic–these critters will cause all sorts of problems for you if you are going towards a place they do not want you to go. Conversely, you get rewarded with all sorts of material success if you do what they want you to.

We are in the world, not of it. If the world is rejecting you, I would take it as a good sign that you are moving in the right direction. Even though there is some good in it, the world is fallen–it will reject those that are not its own, and reward those that are. Just a thought.

(sorry about not being able to answer right away, very busy week for me. And the “grumpy pants meanie” comment was not to baby-talk. I was being light hearted. Apologies if I came across any other way.)

 

[lumenorientale]

Frankly all I know is someone is accepting my offerings and appearing to me with advice and my life is starting a slow turn for the better. While my Christian friends keep praying for my life to be worse and worse till I give in and submit to Jesus

Have they told you that? That would be a shameful thing for them to do. They should be praying that Jesus would show Himself to you. Whatever that entails would be up to Him. However, praying for misfortune to fall upon someone, even if you don’t like that person, is dead wrong. I pray that Jesus shows Himself to you with all the love and mercy that He has, bless you and hold you, and fill you with abundance. That is how I pray.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Ya know. If i was a pagan. I would worry move about my own faith than i would about
trying to hijack another ( by claiming that they stole from you.)

When did I say this?

You say God sends people to hell for not loving him. Not so. he sends people there for not obeying him. I love my parents. They knew it. But if i disobeyed them i was punished. So i’m sorry you fail on that one.

It seems no one can make up there minds on this. Don’t love him / Don’t obey him/ Went into the wrong church. It seems the viewpoint changes with the political strength the Catholic Church has.

So you know where I am coming from I firmly agree with ADF founder Isaac Bonewits that if the Catholic Church had the power today it would just put the new Pagans to death and be done with it.

Yes someone is lying to you. There are no pagan gods. Surely if the pagan gods saw that their faith was heading the way of the dodo bird they would have stepped in.

The Gods never left us, we left them. While the Catholic Church spread in a fasion similar to Islam killing many and assassinating any spirtual leader that was good at defeating the Missionaries ni debate, Thor grabed his hammer and called Jesus to a duel. Jesus ran for his life.

As it just happens they are respecters of man’s free will. Had our ancestors as a majority stayed true to our Gods, Christianity would now be a footnote. As it was the Gods stayed by helping those that requested aid as they came. Oddly as the last Pagan tribes in Eastern Europe fail the revival of Paganism got underway in Western Europe.

As pagan gods seem to be the most vain mythical creatures man ever made up.

How so? They don’t tend tend to kill people for following other Gods or order there tribes to be annihilated to the last man.

Yes pagans are moving towards something. hell. The thing is about pagans is they are scared of the truth. But yet believe in a after life damnation etc… (Whats that you’re going to say pagans have no damnation? well what the hades is hades? and who is in it? )

You do realize Hades wasn’t hell right? Infact Helheim wasn’t even hell. Infact some parts of Hades are rather nice places with food and drink aplenty.

In a way you’re right. Gods friends are much more true. More selective. More meaning ful. Where as budda and the “gods” of pagans friendsm seem to be more like the friends one has on facebook

It depends fully on the worshipper. Some Gods you have a “facebook” relationship with, others it is like a buisness arrangement, still others it is like family. All depending.

Check out Wilhelm Schmidt’s work.(there’s a lot more, he’s just the only one I remember at the moment)

Hey I know this guy! The Urreligion movement, wasn’t Fr. Schmidt (a Priest in the Verbite Order ) denounced in the early 30’s especally after trying to force Native American Polytheism into a monotheistic mold because they had a supreme diety?

It didn’t work out to well and most of his work seem to go around taking the head of a Pantheon and making them the only god based off titles they had like “highest” “allfather” et.

The problem with today’s so-called religion evolution courses is that there is never any evidence of any culture ever progressing along the ladder (spiritism, pantheism, monotheism, however it goes). And they use the modern day Aboriginees as an example of how ancient peoples were. But they aren’t ancient peoples, they’ve changed just as we have. Just because they’re less civilized doesn’t make them a good model. Basically the whole idea of this religious evolution has scant evidence to back itself up.

The field is a difficult one. On one hand we have Christians trying to force there religions into a Christian mold to fit there denominations views. On the other other Secularist trying to force it to fit there agendas. Rarely do you fine someone willing to let the theology of a Pagan group speak for itself.

Curious… do you worship the ancient German-European gods? Isn’t that what thor is? Or just a nice little mixture of your favorites?

ADF is a Pan Indo-European organization. As you said things change.

 

[lumenorientale]

Well, in the Catholic view, we would think that you were under a demonic attack BECAUSE you were becoming Catholic–these critters will cause all sorts of problems for you if you are going towards a place they do not want you to go. Conversely, you get rewarded with all sorts of material success if you do what they want you to.

We are in the world, not of it. If the world is rejecting you, I would take it as a good sign that you are moving in the right direction. Even though there is some good in it, the world is fallen–it will reject those that are not its own, and reward those that are. Just a thought.

(sorry about not being able to answer right away, very busy week for me. And the “grumpy pants meanie” comment was not to baby-talk. I was being light hearted. Apologies if I came across any other way.)

Oh, and one more thing. Misfortunes come and they go, good times come and they go. That is life. I can guarantee you one thing, though you may be having good fortune now, there will come a time when things may go pretty bad. It happens to everyone. However, what we know is that God is not a big vending machine–we do something and He responds by giving us what we want. Not what it’s about. He gives us what we need, though, and is there for us even in our worst, darkest times.