Neocatechumenal Way Given Full Approval by Vatican

[mattm09]

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Seems the Pope agreed with the action of closing down the seminary. The Redemptoris Mater seminaries are Neocatechumenal Way seminaries. Thankfully — there will now be one less.

I am not saying the whole of the Holy See is corrupt —but that Arugello has had the time to make “friends” in high places–possibly adherents.

The possibly adherents derives from the following. When a man with the office of Archbishop pushes for the entire Church to go Neocatechumenal — that man is “walking the Way”. Now --if there is one —there could be others-- including bishops. And yes—they could possibly be part of a Congregation, Council, etc.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0507371.htm
Archbishop Anthony Apuron of Agana, Guam, said the entire church should consider adopting some of the Way’s liturgical practices, including restoring “the ‘breadness’ of the bread,” by using the “unleavened bread used in the ancient and primitive church rather than the wafer-thin, mass-produced bread we use as hosts for our people today.”

And, he said, when a priest carries the Eucharist to people who are seated, it fosters more of a sense of community.

“What sort of a banquet does one go to which requires you to stand rather than sit?” Archbishop Apuron asked.

1. The seminaries are diocesean seminaries which are for the service of the bishop. This is why Archbishop Okada was able to close the seminary himself.
2. There are three acceptable forms of altar bread, which I heard of from a priest who holds a doctorate in the liturgy. The first is recently baked, unleavened bread that has been baked by members of the community. The second are the hosts that are bought in wholesale. The third is not so much altar bread any more, but Consecrated hosts in the tabernacle. There is nothing wrong with the Archbishop’s suggestion to move towards using the first type of bread.
3. Did the Apostles not sit around a table during the first Mass, the Last Supper? I would like to point out that during the Eucharist, the congregation is not literally sitting around a table with their chairs pushed in and laps underneath, but it is arranged so that the chairs form around a table. Is this wrong? The Cathedral in my diocese has a very similar arrangement, with pews in front, behind, and to the left and right of the altar. I doubt if it was wrong that this 200 year old Church would have what seems to be the original pews.
4. I guess Arguello must have corrupted the the many Pontifical Councils and the past 3 popes in order to have the Way approved. I also must assume that the thousands of dioceses that allow the way must have heretical bishops “walking the Way” Your accusation, once again, is poorly aimed and is very biased and uninformed.

 

[Walking_Home]

1. The seminaries are diocesean seminaries which are for the service of the bishop. This is why Archbishop Okada was able to close the seminary himself.
2. There are three acceptable forms of altar bread, which I heard of from a priest who holds a doctorate in the liturgy. The first is recently baked, unleavened bread that has been baked by members of the community. The second are the hosts that are bought in wholesale. The third is not so much altar bread any more, but Consecrated hosts in the tabernacle. There is nothing wrong with the Archbishop’s suggestion to move towards using the first type of bread.
3. **Did the Apostles not sit around a table during the first Mass, the Last Supper? **I would like to point out that during the Eucharist, the congregation is not literally sitting around a table with their chairs pushed in and laps underneath, but it is arranged so that the chairs form around a table. Is this wrong? The Cathedral in my diocese has a very similar arrangement, with pews in front, behind, and to the left and right of the altar. I doubt if it was wrong that this 200 year old Church would have what seems to be the original pews.
4. I guess Arguello must have corrupted the the many Pontifical Councils and the past 3 popes in order to have the Way approved. I also must assume that the thousands of dioceses that allow the way must have heretical bishops “walking the Way” Your accusation, once again, is poorly aimed and is very biased and uninformed.

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Yes the Japanese seminary is to close —Why —because “it was not at the service of the bishops”. Who was it servicing – as can be seen — it was not the Church. That leaves Arguello and the “Way”. When push comes to shove — the true nature of the Neocatechumenal Way and its Redemptoris Mater seminaries comes to light.

The Popes were deceived by the founders parading the “fruits” of the NCW in front of them. What is reflected on the outside of the “fruits” --covers the inside —the inside not being Catholic.

No — I did not say all the bishops who allow the NCW are “walking the Way”. The orthodox bishops will find out what happens when the NCW gains enough adherents within a diocese —just as the Japanese bishops did. Others like Arch. Apuron will let the NCW tear the Church apart.

guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080420/NEWS01/804200307

Now as to bringing back something because the Apostles or the early Church supposedly did it. This error has been condemned by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei. By the way — the NCW arrangement emphasizes the “meal” aspect --doesn’t it.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.
2. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.

 

[mattm09]

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Yes the Japanese seminary is to close —Why —because “it was not at the service of the bishops”. Who was it servicing – as can be seen — it was not the Church. That leaves Arguello and the “Way”. When push comes to shove — the true nature of the Neocatechumenal Way and its Redemptoris Mater seminaries comes to light.

The Popes were deceived by the founders parading the “fruits” of the NCW in front of them. What is reflected on the outside of the “fruits” --covers the inside —the inside not being Catholic.

No — I did not say all the bishops who allow the NCW are “walking the Way”. The orthodox bishops will find out what happens when the NCW gains enough adherents within a diocese —just as the Japanese bishops did. Others like Arch. Apuron will let the NCW tear the Church apart.

guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080420/NEWS01/804200307

Now as to bringing back something because the Apostles or the early Church supposedly did it. This error has been condemned by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei. By the way — the NCW arrangement emphasizes the “meal” aspect --doesn’t it.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

1. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See.
2. Clearly no sincere Catholic can refuse to accept the formulation of Christian doctrine more recently elaborated and proclaimed as dogmas by the Church, under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit with abundant fruit for souls, because it pleases him to hark back to the old formulas. No more can any Catholic in his right senses repudiate existing legislation of the Church to revert to prescriptions based on the earliest sources of canon law. Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.

I am growing tired of your constant denial of the Neocatechumenal Way. I admit, there has been struggles and problems, but now it is time for you to admit that the benefits it has reaped to the Mother Church are great in comparison. Did you know that it was Benedict XVI that brought the Way to Germany while he was still a cardinal? Why did a number of cardinals such as Cordes, Ratzinger, Pell, Ryklo, and O’ Malley, even Karol Wojtyla as John Paul II celebrating Eucharists with the square table, unleavened bread, admonitions, and** seated Communion**? As a matter of fact, Sean O Malley’s personal blog has pictures and texts that explicitly show and describe him doing the “heretical things.” I guess all of those men are corrupt and friends of Kiko.

If the initiators are only showing Rome the fruits, then why is Rome still able to pick out the problems? I’m sure if they are evident to lay people like us they are extremely obvious to the officials in Rome, who we must remember are infalliable as a body in these matters.

Remember that the word catholic decsends from the Greek word katholikos, which is roughly defined as universal. Is it correct to say that traditionalist Catholics, especially those in disagreement with Rome, (SSPX, SSPV etc.) are any more Catholic than people in the Neocatechumenal Way? They aren’t doing the same thing as the rest of the Church either. It seems as though they are lacking a sense of catholicism, such as Marcel LeFebvre who openly disobeyed the Holy Father and ordained bishops against his will! If anything, the Neocatechumenal Way has brought thousands of people back to the Church, incited many vocations, and brought a new spirit to many parishes. Those who think that Kiko Arguello is creating a “new church inside the Church” are thoroughly wrong. He is acting nothing more as a catechist that is spreading the Kerygma of Jesus Christ and His Church.

 

[Gearoidin]

ROME (UCAN) – In an extraordinary move, the Japanese Bishops’ Conference sent a delegation last week to discuss with Pope Benedict XVI “the serious problem” they are having with the Neocatechumenal Way and its seminary in **Takamatsu diocese.
**
ucanews.com/2008/04/29/ja…n-five-months/

“Another matter would be The Neocatechumenal Way (the Way) and the International Takamatsu Diocesan Seminary known as Redemptoris Mater. We have here a serious problem. In the small Catholic Church of Japan, the powerful sect-like activity of Way members is divisive and confrontational. It has caused sharp painful division and strife within the Church. We are struggling with all our strength to overcome the problem but feel that if a solution is to be found, the consideration of Your Holiness for the Church in Japan will be of the utmost importance and direly needed.”

“The diocesan seminary is to be ended. The Holy See has agreed that it be closed as a diocesan seminary this year,” he said.

The bishops, he explained, continue to have “serious and deep” problems with the movement that relate to its “way of thinking” and its “attitude” to Japanese culture, liturgy and other issues.

Takamatsu Diocese is my diocese. You have no idea of the problems the Neocat community have caused here. With only 5000 people in this diocese, which is about half the size of Ireland, and we cannot afford to lose any more members because of the devisions the Neocat. community have caused. For us who are not members of the Neocat Community, this news has brought a huge sense of relief and hope that things will now return to normal.
Gearoidin

 

[Walking_Home]

I am growing tired of your constant denial of the Neocatechumenal Way. I admit, there has been struggles and problems, but now it is time for you to admit that the benefits it has reaped to the Mother Church are great in comparison. Did you know that it was Benedict XVI that brought the Way to Germany while he was still a cardinal? Why did a number of cardinals such as Cordes, Ratzinger, Pell, Ryklo, and O’ Malley, even Karol Wojtyla as John Paul II celebrating Eucharists with the square table, unleavened bread, admonitions, and** seated Communion**? As a matter of fact, Sean O Malley’s personal blog has pictures and texts that explicitly show and describe him doing the “heretical things.” I guess all of those men are corrupt and friends of Kiko.

If the initiators are only showing Rome the fruits, then why is Rome still able to pick out the problems? I’m sure if they are evident to lay people like us they are extremely obvious to the officials in Rome, who we must remember are infalliable as a body in these matters.

Remember that the word catholic decsends from the Greek word katholikos, which is roughly defined as universal. Is it correct to say that traditionalist Catholics, especially those in disagreement with Rome, (SSPX, SSPV etc.) are any more Catholic than people in the Neocatechumenal Way? They aren’t doing the same thing as the rest of the Church either. It seems as though they are lacking a sense of catholicism, such as Marcel LeFebvre who openly disobeyed the Holy Father and ordained bishops against his will! If anything, the Neocatechumenal Way has brought thousands of people back to the Church, incited many vocations, and brought a new spirit to many parishes. Those who think that Kiko Arguello is creating a “new church inside the Church” are thoroughly wrong. He is acting nothing more as a catechist that is spreading the Kerygma of Jesus Christ and His Church.

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If you are tired of having the truth put before you — quit participating in this thread.

It was Pope John Paul II who called for the commission to review the liturgical practices of the NCW —which led to the letter under our current Pope. The letter issued Dec. 2005-- instucting the NCW to adopt the form the Church uses for communion. If he saw no problem – he would not have called for the commission-- now would he. John Paul II also mandated the document RS-2004 to stop abuses.

It is very likely – what he saw in the NCW Mass (taking into account his callling for the commission) contributed to his mandate for the document RS-2004

As far as the SSPX, etc. – Never have come across where they diminishing the sacrificial nature of the Mass and emphasizing the “meal” aspect, or show any type/form of disrespect in their Mass.

Ecclesia de Eucharistia — John Paul II

adoremus.org/EcclesiaDeEucharistia.html#anchor566973

1. All of this makes clear the great responsibility which belongs to priests in particular for the celebration of the Eucharist. It is their responsibility to preside at the Eucharist in persona Christi and to provide a witness to and a service of communion not only for the community directly taking part in the celebration, but also for the universal Church, which is a part of every Eucharist. It must be lamented that, especially in the years following the post-conciliar liturgical reform, as a result of a misguided sense of creativity and adaptation there have been a number of abuses which have been a source of suffering for many. A certain reaction against “formalism” has led some, especially in certain regions, to consider the “forms” chosen by the Church’s great liturgical tradition and her Magisterium as non-binding and to introduce unauthorized innovations which are often completely inappropriate.

I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity. These norms are a concrete expression of the authentically ecclesial nature of the Eucharist; this is their deepest meaning. Liturgy is never anyone’s private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated. The Apostle Paul had to address fiery words to the community of Corinth because of grave shortcomings in their celebration of the Eucharist resulting in divisions (schismata) and the emergence of factions (haireseis) (cf. I Cor 11:17-34). Our time, too, calls for a renewed awareness and appreciation of liturgical norms as a reflection of, and a witness to, the one universal Church made present in every celebration of the Eucharist. **Priests who faithfully celebrate Mass according to the liturgical norms, and communities which conform to those norms, quietly but eloquently demonstrate their love for the Church. **Precisely to bring out more clearly this deeper meaning of liturgical norms, I have asked the competent offices of the Roman Curia to prepare a more specific document, including prescriptions of a juridical nature, on this very important subject. No one is permitted to undervalue the mystery entrusted to our hands: it is too great for anyone to feel free to treat it lightly and with disregard for its sacredness and its universality.

 

[Walking_Home]

Takamatsu Diocese is my diocese. You have no idea of the problems the Neocat community have caused here. With only 5000 people in this diocese, which is about half the size of Ireland, and we cannot afford to lose any more members because of the devisions the Neocat. community have caused. For us who are not members of the Neocat Community, this news has brought a huge sense of relief and hope that things will now return to normal.
Gearoidin

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Hopefully things will be better for your diocese. Unfortunately others are now experiencing the same type of problems you experienced.

 

[benedictgal]

The big problem that I see in the posts extolling the Neocat movement is the group’s mistaken theology regariding the Mass. Furthermore, to claim that the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger has celebrated the Neocat pseudo form of the liturgy flies against the face of everything he has written pre and post conclave about the Mass. To even claim that Pope John Paul II has done the same thing without substantial proof is also erroneous; after all, he was the one who had Redemptionis Sacramentum written.

Furthermore, the Mass is not some historical re-enactment of the Last Supper. That is the Protestant view, not the one held by the Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is centered on Jesus’ salvific act at Calvary and his resurrection. During the Mass, we are just as present at Calvary and at the Tomb as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene.

The Neocat liturgical theology is wrong on so many levels. It is no wonder that both Pope Benedict and Cardinal Arinze have been adamant that the group clean up its act.

 

[Miserissima]

I hate to be late chiming in on this, but did anyone else read:

The cardinal told those present at the ceremony: "The Way already has a long history in the Church – more than 40 years – …

C’mon, since when is >40 years a *long history *in the Church? Heh.

 

[benedictgal]

I hate to be late chiming in on this, but did anyone else read:

C’mon, since when is >40 years a *long history *in the Church? Heh.

Compared to the Church’s 2,000-year history, that’s an eyedropper in the bucket.

 

[Digitonomy]

C’mon, since when is >40 years a *long history *in the Church? Heh.

Very good point, although they can at least say that those practices or customs they have legitimately observed over that length of time have the force of law:

Can. 26 Unless the competent legislator has specifically approved it, a custom contrary to the canon law now in force or one beyond a canonical law (praeter legem canonicam) obtains the force of law only if it has been legitimately observed for thirty continuous and complete years.
Source

Since the Vatican has been closely observing this group and issuing specific instructions and permissions, I don’t think that canon has any practical effect at the moment.

 

[benedictgal]

Very good point, although they can at least say that those practices or customs they have legitimately observed over that length of time have the force of law: Since the Vatican has been closely observing this group and issuing specific instructions and permissions, I don’t think that canon has any practical effect at the moment.

Furthermore, the Holy Father has repeatedly called for the group to clean up its liturgical act, something that the Neocats have had to do with some reluctance in order to get their charter approved.

As Sandro Magister reports:

On December 1, 2005, Cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the congregation for divine worship, sent them a letter, in the name of the pope, to call them back to faithful observance of the liturgical regulations. And the following January 12, Benedict XVI in person urged them to obey. But in practice, this twofold reminder fell on deaf ears almost everywhere.

On February 22, 2007, in an audience with the clergy of Rome, Benedict XVI made it clear that the new statutes would not be approved if they did not follow these instructions.

And in the end, the pressure worked. The new statutes approved last May 11 require the Neocatechumenals to celebrate the Mass following the general liturgical regulations of the Roman rite.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

 

[masondoggy]

I’m not a member of the Way, but I have several family members who are and I accompanied their group on several trips, including WYD '05 and the recent Mass at Yankee Stadium.

I’ve always had my reservations about some of the things they do, I’m particularly not comfortable with the way they distribute Communion and the crumbs from the Host. However, now that they have been given approval from the Vatican, I’m OK with it. The way I look at it is who am I to say what they should and should not do now that the Holy Father has made a decision. It’s in his hands and if he feels the group should have his blessing, well then they have mine too.

That being said, I also saw A LOT of good coming from this group. They are doing something right. A lot of things right. We should all hope, instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, that the problems can get straightened out soon so that the good can multiply. Every time I have been to one of their gatherings, the leaders speak about the situation with the Vatican and every time state that they will comply with whatever the Vatican decides. I have no reason to believe that they won’t follow through. Let’s give it some time and see what happens.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m not a member of the Way, but I have several family members who are and I accompanied their group on several trips, including WYD '05 and the recent Mass at Yankee Stadium.

I’ve always had my reservations about some of the things they do, I’m particularly not comfortable with the way they distribute Communion and the crumbs from the Host. However, now that they have been given approval from the Vatican, I’m OK with it. The way I look at it is who am I to say what they should and should not do now that the Holy Father has made a decision. It’s in his hands and if he feels the group should have his blessing, well then they have mine too.

That being said, I also saw A LOT of good coming from this group. They are doing something right. A lot of things right. We should all hope, instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, that the problems can get straightened out soon so that the good can multiply. Every time I have been to one of their gatherings, the leaders speak about the situation with the Vatican and every time state that they will comply with whatever the Vatican decides. I have no reason to believe that they won’t follow through. Let’s give it some time and see what happens.

The Holy See granted them only two concessions: the transfer ot the Sign of Peace and that they could receive Holy Communion in their places, but, standing, not seated. Of course, if they choose to kneel, then that is legitimate since it is the universal norm. However, everything else is to be scrapped.