Neocatechumenal Way

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Just thought I’d throw in an opinion of the NCW. It started in my parish over 15 years ago and has developed into a tight clique, I guess. I was invited by one member to join last year, but declined…she was very surprised and offended, I think. I told her I want to attend Mass and worship with the whole parish, not just with a clique. Just seems like a hokey kind of thing…some say they “dance” around the altar at their small Mass held in the church basement…gimme a break! 😛

By the way, begging on this forum is poor form.
 
retire_early said:
Just thought I’d throw in an opinion of the NCW. It started in my parish over 15 years ago and has developed into a tight clique, I guess. I was invited by one member to join last year, but declined…she was very surprised and offended, I think. I told her I want to attend Mass and worship with the whole parish, not just with a clique. Just seems like a hokey kind of thing…some say they “dance” around the altar at their small Mass held in the church basement…gimme a break! 😛

By the way, begging on this forum is poor form.
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Understandably so, people have their own views and ideas on how things should be. The NCW sure isn’t for all.

Begging on the fourm … 🤷
 
I am, thanks be to God, one who got out of the Way before getting in too deep. While members of the Way are usually morally conservative, such as being open to life, I found, quite recently, that the doctrinal discrepancies between the teachings contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and those of Kiko’s catecheses were looming larger and larger. I found I could not, in good conscience, continue; now I am seeking the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and wish to one day assist at the Latin Mass according to the Missal of 1962. Please pray that it may happen for me! :gopray: :highprayer:
 
“We Christians do not have altars in this sense (that is, of a dedicated altar with a blessed altar stone and saints’ relics) because the holy stone is Christ, the only cornerstone (see 1 Pet 2:4). That is why we can celebrate the Eucharist on a suitable table and we can celebrate in a square, in the countryside or wherever it is suitable. We don’t have a particular place where exclusively we should celebrate our worship.”

So then there is no such thing as a dedicated building for worshiping God, or for the priest to offer the renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary? I will get to the priesthood in just a few more lines…

“Nor do we (that is, Christians) have priests in the sense of natural religiosity, that is, people whom we separate from all the others so that in our name they may get in contact with the divinity. In Christianity the only and eternal priest, the one who intercedes for us is Christ (see the Letter to the Hebrews). And since we are his Body, all of us are priests. So all the Church is priestly and intercedes for the world (common priesthood of the faithful).”

Yes, Christ is our true High Priest, but aren’t those men who are ordained priests, His ministers, ontologically changed so that they may act “in persona Christi” at Mass, as well as in confession? The lay Catholic in the pews does share membership in the “priesthood of the faithful”, but without Holy Orders he can’t bless, can’t carry out the Sacraments, nor can he confect the Holy Eucharist. The Sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented, in an unbloody manner, by the priest and only by the priest. He presents us to God in the Mass, along with the unblemished Sacrificial Lamb made present under the appearances of bread and wine. Yet, even though they only look like bread and wine, the priest–with the words of consecration–prays that the Holy Spirit may come down upon them to change them into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. The Holy Eucharist, contrary to Kiko’s catechesis, does not come about by the power of the congregants. It sounds much too Protestant.

Also, I do not understand why the catechesis says that one cannot love their neighbor and emphasizes that it’s impossible to love another person. Man is a slave to sin, according to Kiko, and cannot do otherwise; therefore, he isn’t culpable for the evil that results from his sins. But hold on…doesn’t a person choose to sin? That’s an exercise of free will. To say that he or she is incapable of choosing to love or to cooperate with the grace of God means that they have had their free will negated, they’re merely a marionette having their strings pulled. That means, too, that there are no saints, since it would have been impossible for them to cooperate with God’s grace in their lives and be honored and venerated for their lives of inestimably heroic virtue for centuries after their deaths. They would not have even attained Heaven, or even gone through the cleansing fire of Purgatory…they would all be in Hell. In this same thread, if one sins, evil results, correct? Then one is responsible for that evil, since it came about through his choice to sin and its effects are felt throughout the world, whether in catastrophic catastrophes or in the ordinary circumstances of the day. Although Christ’s sacrifice was the ultimate expiation for all of our sins, for without it we’d all be consigned to Hell regardless of how holy our lives might be, it does not mean we are guaranteed to go to Heaven even with a multitude of unrepented sins on our souls at the moment we die. We must still work out our salvation “in fear and trembling”; we must do penance for our sins and convert our lives, not to being Christian in the sense that Kiko puts it but to lives of virtue, living for God alone. That is the Catholic Church’s teaching. Our ultimate goal is to attain the vision of the Eternal Beatitude and be numbered among the community of saints in Heaven.
 
Oh, well said, DonaNobis_Pacem

Also, I note in the address of the Holy Father to the NCW yesterday (? the day before?) the Pope says this:
The first is to have the utmost care to build and to preserve the communion within the particular Churches in which you will work. The Way has its own charism and dynamic, a gift, which like all of the gifts of the Spirit, has a profound ecclesial dimension; this means paying attention to the life of the Churches to which your leaders send you
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How often have we heard that “the Pope sends us” or “the Pope sends the families”

Obviously, that is not how the Pope sees it - evidently he believes that the “leaders send”!!
 
DonaNobis_Pacem said:
"We Christians do not have altars in this sense (that is, of a dedicated altar with a blessed altar stone and saints’ relics)
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Is the part in the bracket part of your quote? If yes, where are you quoting from? If not, and you are quoting from, as it appears, from the Catechetical Directory for Teams of Catechists Vol. 1, then your bracketed interpretation is your own and does not reflect the obvious meaning of the text which is apparent in the context. Thanks to Caanan, I have the full text now and could verify.

I get to the rest of your post later, for you have written quite a mouthful. But please let me know if you are not interested in reasonable arguments, so I won’t waste my time trying to convince you.
 
Caanan said:
Oh, well said, DonaNobis_Pacem

Also, I note in the address of the Holy Father to the NCW yesterday (? the day before?) the Pope says this:

How often have we heard that “the Pope sends us” or “the Pope sends the families”

Obviously, that is not how the Pope sees it - evidently he believes that the “leaders send”!!
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Dear Caanan,

Pope Francis sent them indeed. He sent even you:
“I invite everyone to spread the Good News in every walk of life “with gentleness and reverence” (1 Pt 3:15)! Go out into the squares and proclaim Jesus Christ, Our Saviour!”
REGINA CÆLI, St. Peter’s Square, Second Sunday of Easter - Divine Mercy Sunday, 7 April 2013
Did you go? Are you going?
 
The words in parentheses are not from the Catechetical Directory, but are my words. However, they are not “my” interpretation, but what the Church has prescribed for churches in order for the priest to properly offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It was Pope Sixtus II (257-259) who was the first to prescribe that Mass be said with a set altar. Pope Felix I decreed that Mass be said on the tombs of martyrs, which brought about a change in the altar’s appearance from a simple table to that of a tomb or chest, and with it came the rule that relics of martyrs be enclosed in the altar stone, which became a very important part of the altar’s construction. The altar stone containing the relics was encased in the altar and then consecrated by the bishop. Before the Second Vatican Council, priests could only lawfully say Mass on a properly consecrated altar. The altar has been an essential part of a church building since the time of the early Christians.
 
DonaNobis_Pacem said:
The words in parentheses are not from the Catechetical Directory, but are my words. However, they are not “my” interpretation, but what the Church has prescribed for churches in order for the priest to properly offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It was Pope Sixtus II (257-259) who was the first to prescribe that Mass be said with a set altar. Pope Felix I decreed that Mass be said on the tombs of martyrs, which brought about a change in the altar’s appearance from a simple table to that of a tomb or chest, and with it came the rule that relics of martyrs be enclosed in the altar stone, which became a very important part of the altar’s construction. The altar stone containing the relics was encased in the altar and then consecrated by the bishop. Before the Second Vatican Council, priests could only lawfully say Mass on a properly consecrated altar. The altar has been an essential part of a church building since the time of the early Christians.
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Dear Christine,

The words in the brackets are indeed your interpretation of what you think Mr. Argüello is talking about. Hence you put it in the middle of a sentence quoted from the Catechetical Directory, which is a transcribed recording of a spoken catechesis he gave. (FYI, the Holy See studied that text thoroughly, and approved it, so good luck trying to find in it “doctrinal discrepancies between the teachings contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and those of Kiko’s catechizes … looming larger and larger”, unless you really believe to be smarter and more Catholic than the Holy See.)
Of course, the Church uses marble altars with relics; however, you misinterpret Mr. Argüello’s words, inasmuch as he is not criticising the Church’s tradition of using marble altars but he is talking about the stone altars of natural pagan religion. That is the context, but you make it look like he takes an issue with marble altars.
The problem addressed in the catechesis you quoted from, is not with what material the altar is made of (in fact, churches designed according to the ideas of Mr. Argüello do have marble altars with martyr’s relics). The issue is not this but it is to call the people out of a natural religiosity to Christian faith, precisely the faith of those martyrs.
 
How can that be my interpretation? I don’t claim to be smarter or more Catholic than the Holy See. I also don’t have to be a learned theologian to know that Kiko saying the altar need be no more than a suitable “table” sounds Protestant to my ears. I am not simply making up things off the top of my head, but actually taking baby steps towards learning about authentic Catholicism and the Tradition of the Church.

“Christianity says that we are all already judged and that the judgment on all sins has been made on the Cross of Jesus Christ who has forgiven us all. God has already judged the sins of men. Do you know what God’s verdict has been in front of that man who stole thousands of dollars from you and left you in the street, or of the one who has done you so much harm? Forgiveness and mercy.”

Although we are saved by faith in God and in His Son, there is so much more than simple belief required in order to attain Heaven. Yes, God is merciful and patient with all sinners, as He does not desire their death but, rather, their repentance. In fact, Kiko’s words here explicitly deny not only the personal judgment that comes at the moment of death, when a person’s soul leaves their earthly body and stands before God, but also the Last Judgment, because he says we are “already judged”. Christ will come again in His full glory, and He shall separate the sheep from the goats; to those who lived virtuous, holy lives and cooperated with His grace to bring about not only their personal conversion but to also be His servants, eternal life in Heaven will be given. To those who did evil in their lives and did no penance for their sins, they shall go to the eternal punishment in Hell. Purgatory is the place where souls go if they have repented of their sins before death, but did not fully satisfy justice. God is indeed a loving, merciful Father, but He is also the perfectly just Judge. This is a doctrine of the Catholic Church, and is also found in the Scriptures. Conversion is turning away from sin and living one’s life for God, choosing to love God and one’s neighbor (yes, although it is difficult at times and we often fail at it due to our human condition, we CAN choose to love and allow God’s grace to work in us, silently, unseen, without desire for extraordinary mystical gifts or great external signs).

The faith of the martyrs was undeniably heroic. They stood before leaders with authority and power who executed them because worship and love of God, to them, was greater than any worldly comforts that would have been given them in exchange for their apostasy from the Church. They would not become apostates because of the solemn warning that Jesus had given: if a believer denies Him before others, He will deny that person before His Father and the angels. But we don’t need to return to a primitive version of the Church in order to do this. We can draw inspiration from the lives of the early Christian martrys, as well as other saints, in order to learn how to cooperate with God’s grace and become saints ourselves. That is what the Lord wants for us…not to merely become Christians in the sense of Kiko’s idea, but to become worthy of sainthood. That and Heaven is what we should desire above all else. :getholy:
 
Originally Posted by nagyszakall
Dear Caanan,
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Pope Francis sent them indeed. He sent even you:
“I invite everyone to spread the Good News in every walk of life “with gentleness and reverence” (1 Pt 3:15)! Go out into the squares and proclaim Jesus Christ, Our Saviour!”
REGINA CÆLI, St. Peter’s Square, Second Sunday of Easter - Divine Mercy Sunday, 7 April 2013
Did you go? Are you going?
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Now, this is the sort of chicanery I have come to expect from nagyszakall and other cats. First of all, the quote of the Holy Father’s to which you refer mentions “invite” but not “send”. Of course we are always in mission (and in that sense “sent”) as a general obligation of our faith.

However, the sense in which the NCW use the term “missio” is rather different. Being “sent by the Pope” is a catch cry and claim of papal mandate. The pope in his recent address makes clear that the families are “sent” by the leaders. Misappropriation of meaning is the most common method of the Neocats.

Also, I note that in your quote (REGINA CÆLI, St. Peter’s Square, Second Sunday of Easter - Divine Mercy Sunday, 7 April 2013) the pope, not co-incidentally, refers to the scriptural injunction “with gentleness and reverence”. Perhaps you need to sit with that thought for a little while.
Did you go? Are you going?
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I assume you are implying that I am not? Once again this is the common attitude of the NCW - that those who do not accept the NCW as a superior “way” are not really Catholic, or in some way must be suspect in their commitments.
Re: Neocatechumenal Way
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the Holy Father seem very happy to be meeting with the mission families of the Way and Kiko in the video: youtube.com/watch?v=gR_8MXJHfac
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the video is in Italian and Spanish without English subtitles.
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The NCW spin on the Pope’s address is in full swing. Here is the alternative view upon which to ruminate:

johnlallenjr.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/on-the-neocatechumenate-and-making-a-mess/
 
Caanan said:
Once again this is the common attitude of the NCW - that those who do not accept the NCW as a superior “way” are not really Catholic, or in some way must be suspect in their commitments.
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I normally just sirt back quietly but, Canaan, we could say the some of you and all those who disagree with the NCW. You seem to believe that since we are ncw and not the “Caananite” catholic we are not really catholic and some how suspect in our commitments… Even tho the Holy Father has given us the OK to continue… Maybe… You… Should be the Holy Father? :eek::confused:👍😉
 
Caanan said:
Now, this is the sort of chicanery I have come to expect from nagyszakall and other cats.
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Please try to argue the issue without expressing your stereotypes, which BTW in my sincere and honest opinion are mistaken.
First of all, the quote of the Holy Father’s to which you refer mentions “invite” but not “send”. Of course we are always in mission (and in that sense “sent”) as a general obligation of our faith.
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He does say “go”, which sounds to me pretty much like sending.
…Misappropriation of meaning is the most common method of the Neocats.
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Again, you are airing your prejudices, and I find that unacceptable in polite conversation.
Also, I note that in your quote (REGINA CÆLI, St. Peter’s Square, Second Sunday of Easter - Divine Mercy Sunday, 7 April 2013) the pope, not co-incidentally, refers to the scriptural injunction “with gentleness and reverence”. Perhaps you need to sit with that thought for a little while.
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I think you are right. I agree with the Pope and with you on this. I have been trying really hard to be gentle and reverent in my work of evangelization.
I assume you are implying that I am not?
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I just asked a question. I propose that your assumption is incorrect.
Once again this is the common attitude of the NCW - that those who do not accept the NCW as a superior “way” are not really Catholic, or in some way must be suspect in their commitments.
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And I think once again you try to hang prejudiced labels on the members of the NCW in general. Once again I disagree with you.
 
DonaNobis_Pacem said:
How can that be my interpretation?
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See, it is very simple:
by inserting that very correct description of a proper Christian altar in the sentence of Mr. Argüello, you implied that that is what he is talking about. On the other hand, Mr. Argüello was talking about the difference between natural religiosity and Christian faith. He began with explaining the phenomenon of primitive religions appearing simultaneously with the appearance of homo sapiens on earth. Then he goes on to say that those primitive religions often began to use temples and altars. Then he says that those temples and altars do not exist in Christianity, because we don’t offer sacrifices to placate God, so that he will give us what we want, but it is Chirst who offers the true sacrifice, and true worship is to do his will, not ours (see Jn 4). So in this sense (in the sense of the natural religiosity and not, as you stated, in the sense of a dedicated altar with a blessed altar stone and saints’ relics) there is no altar, temple, priests in Christianity.

Simple as that, what you wrote is correct about the altar, but you apparently misunderstood what Mr. Argüello was talking about.

Also, FYI, dedicated altar does not necessarily mean that it is made of stone and has relics. That would be the consecrated altar. As it appears, in our day the majority of the world’s Holy Masses are celebrated on altars which were not consecrated. Before Vatican II, a lot of the world’s altars were made of wood with a piece of marble with the relics. Since Vatican II the little marble plate is no longer mandatory. I (and I presume most Catholics, neocatechumens or not) would prefer to celebrate Mass with a beautiful consecrated stone altar with martyrs’ relics, but it takes time and effort to build proper churches, chapels and oratories with worthy materials. In the meantime, what is more important is the salvation of souls and that people receive the sacraments after they have been prepared well.
I, and so many others, were brought to the sacraments and to love Holy Mother Church and obey her teachings by the NCW. I have listened to plenty of preaching/catechesis for the past 23 years and I disagree with you when you say that the formation of the NCW differs from the Catechism and the teaching of the Church.
I know that the NCW has a “style” which some people don’t like. Songs, art, even a certain jargon that sticks on people when they spend enough time in a community sometimes bother me also, especially if I suspect that there is no “content” behind the jargon. But I can’t deny the benefits of this Christian adult formation in my and many other people’s lives. Beside agreeing with it, I also trust the decisions of the Holy See, because Christ has promised that the Holy Spirit with guide the Church to all truth.
So, if the Holy See, or even my local ordinary would disband the neocatechumenal communities tomorrow (even though, up till now we have received full support from the hierarchy), I would have a hard time understanding it, but I would obey whatever they legitimately order me to do or not to do.
However, when you, dear Christine, write posts which, in my opinion, are mistaken and misleading, I try to counter them, with what I believe is true and good.
To conclude, here is a link to the decree of the Pontifical Council for the Laity who (after consulting with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) approved the texts that you quoted from as valid and binding support for the catechesis of the NCW:
camminoneocatecumenale.it/public/file/DecretoDirettorio.PDF
Thanks for your attention.
 
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