NeoPagan Friend

[BlessedBe13]

Lisa4Catholics:

Anyone interested to find out about spiritual warfare from someone who used to be involved in these new age things go to my sig and read up on it.

New age is a very broad term. Just because some people have bad experiences doesn’t mean it has to do with a particular religion. Often they are made up once they convert away from it. Of course someone would do that, especially if the religion they belong to proclaims to be the only true religion and that all others are wrong and/or evil.

Granted, I do believe that there are malevolent spirits/beings/entities/whatever out there, but they don’t arise because of someone practicing a particular religion. It is just as easy for me to say about all the evil that arose in my life when I was still Catholic (and thank god I’m pagan now!) as it is for others to talk about all the evil that arose in their lives when they were pagan - or any other religion (and thank god they’re Christian/Jewish/Islamic now!).

It goes both ways.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Some other informational links to look at:

On Wicca:
religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm
wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca0.htm

General Goddess worship:

religioustolerance.org/goddess.htm

Asatru (Norse Paganism):
religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm

General Neo-Pagan:
religioustolerance.org/neo_paga.htm

New Age:
religioustolerance.org/newage.htm

Very informative links for someone looking for a better understand of what these religions are about. Even just in these listings, one can see that although a lot of these religions/religious movements are often considered the same thing and may share similarities, they are also different and distinct from each other.

I doubt many Catholics would be happy with me equating them with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Since aren’t they the exact same thing?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I guess it’s just me then. Christianity was not “made up”. Jesus Christ was a real person whose authenticity in history is without question. His presence on the face of the earth changed the world. I don’t need to do anything at this point but cite history to you. Can you deny it?

Where are the Greco-Roman gods? Where are the Celtic gods? I’m Irish, Scot and of Gaul. Do I worship Dagda or Cerrunos? Where are the Norse gods? Do I worship Odin/Woden, Thor/Thunor or anyone else? No.

I’m not approaching this without some understanding of what neo-pagans are attempting to do. Folks, the forces of history itself argue against your “beliefs”. You simply cannot reinstitute something which has not been practiced for over a thousand years or more. For crying out loud, your ancestors rejected those gods and embraced Christianity! What are you saying? Whoops, sorry, we made a mistake! Exactly what power(s) do your gods have in this current moment of history?

“If we believe, they will come”. Do you absolutely positively KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that the “gods” you invoke are the “gods” of your ancestors? The God I invoke is the God of my ancestors - Celt, Saxon, Norse, Frank, Gaul, Germanic, etc.

 

[brotherhrolf]

And as for the religious intolerance links… PHAH! I have a graduate degree in Anthropology which does not preclude my belief in Catholicism. I am perfectly able to separate my personal beliefs from discerning other cultures.

 

[BlessedBe13]

brotherhrolf:

Christianity was not “made up”. Jesus Christ was a real person whose authenticity in history is without question. His presence on the face of the earth changed the world.

I only used made up, because I saw the term used in another post. I never denied that Jesus was a real person. I am well aware of that. But Christianity was still created (better term?) and was new at one point in time. Gerald Gardner was also a real person who created Wicca.

Where are the Greco-Roman gods? Where are the Celtic gods? I’m Irish, Scot and of Gaul. Do I worship Dagda or Cerrunos? Where are the Norse gods? Do I worship Odin/Woden, Thor/Thunor or anyone else? No.

That’s your choice. There’s no real point except you choose not to worship them. I have Polish, Irish, Danish, and German ancestry. I don’t worship all the traditional deities from those backgrounds. I never professed to.

You simply cannot reinstitute something which has not been practiced for over a thousand years or more.

I never claimed to be practicing an ancient religion either.

For crying out loud, your ancestors rejected those gods and embraced Christianity!

A lot of forced rejection by Christians trying to stamp out traditional religions.

What are you saying? Whoops, sorry, we made a mistake!

I wasn’t alive back then.

Exactly what power(s) do your gods have in this current moment of history?

Not sure exacltly what you mean.

Do you absolutely positively KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that the “gods” you invoke are the “gods” of your ancestors? The God I invoke is the God of my ancestors - Celt, Saxon, Norse, Frank, Gaul, Germanic, etc.

I know my god/desses are real just as much as you know that yours is.

 

[BlessedBe13]

brotherhrolf:

And as for the religious intolerance links… PHAH! I have a graduate degree in Anthropology which does not preclude my belief in Catholicism. I am perfectly able to separate my personal beliefs from discerning other cultures.

That’s fine. Some people chose to post informational links, so I did as well. That’s all. Doesn’t really phase me if you look at them or not.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Blessed: Your point about Christians trying to stamp out native religions is quite valid. Yes, we certainly did it in the Americas but I ask you to put yourself in Hernan Cortes’ place when he entered Tenochtitlan and found the huge pile of skulls (as described in Bernal Diaz’s “Conquest of New Spain”) at the foot of the Pyramid of Tetzcatlipocha or the haunches of human legs hanging and curing outside Aztec houses. Did you know that the Aztecs were cannibals who used the sacrifices of the War of the Flowers to suplement the meager protein resources of the Valley of Mexico? Put yourself into the mind of a 16th century Catholic and tell me that Christians were trying to stamp out native religions.

Point two: Explain to me how Ireland was converted. Don’t see any Roman legions or Britannic warriors invading there.

But we digress from the point of the thread. Read the first post again. I sense that this is a young person going out and experimenting with “finding her own path”. Would you encourage any neophyte in your beliefs to strike out on his or her own?

 

[Holly3278]

Your friend is definitely in my prayers. I was once involved in Wicca and I tell you, you don’t want to get involved with the Esoteric and Pagan practices. They are very attractive to people because of the loose morals and because of the spirituality of such things. Unfortunately, way too many people get tied up in this stuff. In fact, I think I read that Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the United States. Believe me, this is dangerous stuff. I have a friend who was deeply involved in the Occult one time and he even envisioned the Devil giving him some book wrapped in human skin once. He also used to have horrific dreams which were likely at least partly due to his deep Occultic involvement. Thankfully, he has gotten out of it and last I checked, had gone back to Christianity.

 

[cheddarsox]

Here is a heads up, pagan is not the same as occult. True, sometimes the two are mixed by some people, but they are not automatically attached.

Nor do all pagans worship ancient deities. The term pagan encompasses literally thousands of religions and spiritualities, it is a sort of catch all term.

It is true that some people are attracted to some aspects of what they believe paganism is, because they think it means loose morals, and the ability to get back at their enemies by working dark magic. But that is not at the heart of most practitioners. There are silly, imature people in all religions who seek to tap into some type of “magic” to get all their problems taken care of. But we know the reality is that spirituality involves dedication, effort, honesty and integrity, reguardless of the path.

We can all offer examples of spiritual tragedies that we have come across in our own lives, as well as outstanding examples of godly folk, of a variety of religions.

My advice to the original poster is to keep the conversation open, be a friend. Don’t despair. Don’t let fear or misunderstanding close your heart.

Brother…I couldn’t help but think, when you mentioned the pile of Aztec bones, of the catacombs in Italy, of the chandeliers made of bones, of walls of skulls of Catholic monks. Wonder what the uninitiated would think of these!

I won’t try to defend the deities of practitioners of religions I am not and probably will never be a part of, I can only speak of my faith. I don’t know what the nature of deities is. But I also don’t see much difference in someone praying to an ancient deity, than in someone praying to St Anthony to help them find a lost item. I don’t see a difference in people burning incense in front of a statue of Anubis, as being different from carrying a statue of the Virgin around, throwing themselves face down before it, pledging everlasting love and then crowning it queen. All my young life I watched my mother change outfits on her infant of Prague statue for the various holidays and seasons, and watched people cross themselves with holy water when they entered and left sacred space…and you think pagan practices are silly? They are virtually identical in so many ways!

People of all ilk have certain psychological needs that religion can fill, the details differ, but at the heart there is the same need, the same longing for answers, and to participate in something larger than ourselves.

Think of how much comfort St Christopher brought to millions before the church told us he never really existed…

I’m not dissing Catholicism. I am glad I was raised Catholic, I loved the richness of it. Mylove of ritual began there. It put me in excellant stead for my life long spiritual seeking. Revelations I had as a Catholic, during Catholic prayer sessions etc, led me to my current beliefs. I don’t believe it was the devil speaking to me as I kept vigil on Holy Thursday night in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

cheddar

 

[BlessedBe13]

Holly3278:

They are very attractive to people because of the loose morals and because of the spirituality of such things.

Give me a break. Loose morals? Any serious practictioner would know it is anything but. Of course someone could call themselves Pagan and have loose morals, just as someone could call themselves Catholic and have loose morals. It simply means that they aren’t truly practicing the religion they claim to be.

Believe me, this is dangerous stuff.

Uh huh. Just as dangerous as Christianity.

I have a friend who was deeply involved in the Occult one time and he even envisioned the Devil giving him some book wrapped in human skin once. He also used to have horrific dreams which were likely at least partly due to his deep Occultic involvement.

Again… . Occult is a very broad term. Someone could be involved in the “occult” and have nothing to do with Wicca or any pagan religion. The same goes with visions. The religion doesn’t bring the visions…chances are he was looking for something “dark or evil” and it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, or he felt some sort of guilt from being “involved in the occult” (whatever that is supposed to mean in this situation) and that is how the guilt manifested itself. I used to have horrible visions and nightmares when I was a practicing Catholic. I certainly don’t blame Catholicism (or any religion) for them.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cheddar: You make somewhat of a point about the reliquaries in the catacombs…if I stretched the point. Diaz was not writing about the practice of taking the decomposed skeletons of monks and stacking them after they were dessicated and clean but rather a huge pyramid of freshly decomposing decapitated heads to say nothing of the hearts or of his descriptions of rivers of blood flowing down the pyramid.

As an anthropologist I can objectively observe other religious beliefs including syncretic beliefs (e.g. the Mayans to this day burning copal in front of cathedrals in Yucatan). On the other hand, this young person has absolutely NO business inventing shamanistic rites.

And, yes, I am more than aware of St. Anthony (except that it works) and my great aunt used to turn St. Martha’s statue around to face the wall when she wasn’t “answering prayers”. This is hardly the same as invoking spirits in a shamanistic ritual.

 

[cheddarsox]

Brother,

What about the shamanistic path do you object to? That you find it silly? that you think she is consorting with demons? That she is opening herself up to powers she is not equipped to confront?

I think you and I have more common ground than uncommon,but I am not sure I understand your perspective on this situation.

cheddar

 

[Axion]

Give me a break. Loose morals? Any serious practictioner would know it is anything but. Of course someone could call themselves Pagan and have loose morals, just as someone could call themselves Catholic and have loose morals. It simply means that they aren’t truly practicing the religion they claim to be.

This isn’t quite honest. Many pagan religions eschew Christian morality, and this is one of their attractions to many. From the Bhagwan to tantric groups to many wiccans, sex plays a part in the rites, and few insist on monogomous loyal family life.

Uh huh. Just as dangerous as Christianity. Again… .

Christianity is not dangerous. Pagan religions are dangerous because they are demonic deceptions. Most of the “faiths” were either invented by drugged-up wackos communing with malevolent spirits, or are old and with very dark histories. If you believe the message of Jesus then you know all such religions are demonic. They are designed to lead people away from the True God and His ways, and onto an “easier path”, where you can believe what you like, do as you like, gain “powers”, and commune with spirits… No more having to obey God’s laws - Hey, you ARE God…

Occult is a very broad term. Someone could be involved in the “occult” and have nothing to do with Wicca or any pagan religion.

Wicca and similar pagan religions are part of the occult. As is anything invoking spirits and other powers. Some pagan religions like Hunduism/Buddhism have fewer occult practices.

The same goes with visions. The religion doesn’t bring the visions…chances are he was looking for something “dark or evil” and it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, or he felt some sort of guilt from being “involved in the occult” (whatever that is supposed to mean in this situation) and that is how the guilt manifested itself. .

excuses. These things happen regularly with such people who dabble in the occult. It is evil. You are on a path of evil. The path from Wicca into demon-worship and Satanism is one continuous road. Break away from it now. We are praying for you.

 

[Fox]

She thinks she has a spirit guide, when in all fact I’d gander it is Satan himself or one of his minions trying to lead her furthur down the road of spiritual destruction. She is falling for it hard. Pray for her she needs it before it is too late. I will pray for her.

 

[Zooey]

Axion:

This isn’t quite honest. Many pagan religions eschew Christian morality, and this is one of their attractions to many. From the Bhagwan to tantric groups to many wiccans, sex plays a part in the rites, and few insist on monogomous loyal family life.
Christianity is not dangerous. Pagan religions are dangerous because they are demonic deceptions. Most of the “faiths” were either invented by drugged-up wackos communing with malevolent spirits, or are old and with very dark histories. If you believe the message of Jesus then you know all such religions are demonic. They are designed to lead people away from the True God and His ways, and onto an “easier path”, where you can believe what you like, do as you like, gain “powers”, and commune with spirits… No more having to obey God’s laws - Hey, you ARE God…
Wicca and similar pagan religions are part of the occult. As is anything invoking spirits and other powers. Some pagan religions like Hunduism/Buddhism have fewer occult practices.

excuses. These things happen regularly with such people who dabble in the occult. It is evil. You are on a path of evil. The path from Wicca into demon-worship and Satanism is one continuous road. Break away from it now. We are praying for you.

Great post!!

 

[Exporter]

American Indian Shamans.

I do not know how to catorize them, except they are of the “nature religions”. I know one. His name is Red Elk. If you Google Red Elk you’ll get his page.

Red Elk has studied Protestism, but he is a Shamen. I asked for one favor 2 years ago. And it was delivered, but good. I asked for a strong wind to blow from the South in San Antonio ,TX on a certain day in April. It blew 20mph to 30 mph. That was very unusual, in April the winds just dont get over 15mph. That Red Elk did something, and I dont know what he did.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cheddar: My problem is not with shamanism per se but the apparent intent of this young person to invent “shamanistic” practices or to adopt shamanistic practices willy-nilly without context. At the very least it could be simply silly but what happens if this person starts using any of the numerous hallucinogenic substances commonly used by true shamans (e.g. peyote, psilocibin mushrooms, datura root)? What happens if that person invokes a spirit which ought not to be invoked? Would that person have adequate knowledge to protect him/herself? I didn’t read in the post where this young person spent any time apprenticing to a shaman in an authentic cultural tradition…and even that’s a real big gamble - look what happened to Carlos Castaneda.

Aside from my own faith-based beliefs (which I have not used extensively in this thread -i.e. I’m not condemning you to hell), my biggest problem with all of this is the “neo” part of it. Unless you put paganism and native religious practices within their cultural context, you really don’t know what you will end up with. I won’t try to convince you by talking about my college acquaintances and what they did following a “Norse” wiccan path or a “Celtic” wiccan path. What goes around comes around. I will say that if you set forth on that “path” you had jolly well know what you are doing and why you are doing it. Ultimately you’ll have to answer for it in this world or the next.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Exporter: I hear you. Voodoo is still practiced in New Orleans. There is the touristy stuff in the French Quarter and then there are the real practicioners. We have a saying over here “Someone must be burning a black candle on you” when you experience a series of unfortunate events. The archdiocese of New Orleans has a full-time exorcist and while the Church refuses to speak about his ministry openly, word leaks out that he is very busy. I hesitate to comment about Native American shamans because that is part of their authentic religious traditions. I honestly can’t recall any instances where their traditions were used to invoke evil.

 

[Fox]

Black candles, Voodoo dolls, hexes? Superstitous garbage, it gets as much power over you as you give it. Put your faith in God for He has the true power.

The practitioners of Voodoo don’t know what they are getting into, and I’m not surprised that their is a full time Exorcist there in New Orleans. You play with fire you get burned. Messing around with Ouija and other occult arts (Voodoo) will destroy you.

About the wind, nothing more than coincidence.

 

[cheddarsox]

Brother,

I agree, that dabblers often find they have bitten off more than they can chew. Religions are things that grew in cultures, with community knowledge and support, and they don’t automatically translate to personal practice, borrowing, etc.

I don’t know what or how the particular women in question is pursuing her path.

Thanks for clarifying your position for me.

cheddar