Nephilim

[brb3]

I don’t know how else to interpret it when it is stated so explicitly. It seems blatant by the passages in Genesis that some sort of spiritual beings bred with women.

If the angel of the Lord can wrestle with Jacob, surely other spiritual beings can take on flesh form?

Then, why would God give Angels sex organs(flesh) …if they don’t marry (…per Jesus ) ?

 

[brb3]

I don’t know how else to interpret it when it is stated so explicitly. It seems blatant by the passages in Genesis that some sort of spiritual beings bred with women.

If the angel of the Lord can wrestle with Jacob, surely other spiritual beings can take on flesh form?

But, we are told they are Male, at least some have male names ! Never heard of a female Angel name tho …

 

[patrick457]

But, we are told they are Male, at least some have male names ! Never heard of a female Angel name tho …

Actually angels are supposed to be genderless (I think), though yes, angels in the Bible often take the form of human males - if they don’t appear as (sorry for the term ) freaky chimerical entities full of eyes and wings, that is.

 

[patrick457]

I doubt it. Whatever they were, they don’t seem to exist today. What would make you think the Anti-Christ would be one of these.

One traditional account, advanced by St. Hippolytus of Rome, says that the Anti-Christ will be an Israelite from the tribe of Dan. Of course, Danites are about as scarce these days as Nephilim. [Edit: unless you believe the claim of the “Ethiopian Jews” to be descended in part from the tribe of Dan.]

The reason for the idea that the Antichrist will be a Jew is because Jesus was a Jew, and the reason why he is thought to come from the tribe of Dan is because Dan had a pretty horrible track record in the OT (read: Micah’s silver idol).

 

[patrick457]

Why are the Nephilim referred to as famous heroes of men in Genesis 6:4 (“The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterward–when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.”), but in the text of the Book of Enoch from the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are portrayed as wicked giants who tormented the humans, and were part of the reason why God sent the flood to cleanse the earth?

Can anyone qualify this discrepancy for me? Why the difference between these two texts? I understand that the Book of Enoch is not a part of the Catholic Canon, but I still think that it’s fairly relevant… if not in a religious sense than at least in a cultural one.

Not really an urgent question or anything, I’m just curious.

The origin of the Nephilim is really a huge, perhaps unsolveable, mystery.

The book of Enoch does understand “the sons of God” of Genesis 6 to be angels who mated with human women, resulting in the birth of giants called the Nephilim. It might seem odd to us, but this was actually a well known idea in the Second Temple period:

Hear now, my sons, and I will uncover your eyes that you may see and understand the works of God, that you may choose that which pleases Him and reject that which He hates, that you may walk perfectly in all His ways and not follow after thoughts of the guilty inclination and after eyes of lust. For through them, great men have gone astray and mighty heroes have stumbled from former times till now. Because they walked in the stubbornness of their heart the Heavenly Watchers fell; they were caught because they did not keep the commandments of God. And their sons also fell who were tall as cedar trees and whose bodies were like mountains. All flesh on dry land perished; they were as though they had never been because they did their own will and did not keep the commandment of their Maker so that His wrath was kindled against them.

• Damascus Document (3.1-7; cf. 4Q266, col. 2, 14-21)

And in the second week of the tenth jubilee Mahalalel took unto him to wife Dina, the daughter of Barakiel the daughter of his father’s brother, and she bare him a son in the third week in the sixth year, and he called his name Jared, for in his days the angels of the Lord descended on the earth, those who are named the Watchers, that they should instruct the children of men, and that they should do 16 judgment and uprightness on the earth. And in the eleventh jubilee Jared took to himself a wife, and her name was Baraka, the daughter of Rasujal, a daughter of his father’s brother, in the fourth week of this jubilee, and she bare him a son in the fifth week, in the fourth year of the jubilee, and he called his name Enoch. And he was the first among men that are born on earth who learnt writing and knowledge and wisdom and who wrote down the signs of heaven according to the order of their months in a book, that men might know the seasons of the years according to the order of their separate months. And he was the first to write a testimony and he testified to the sons of men among the generations of the earth, and recounted the weeks of the jubilees, and made known to them the days of the years, and set in order the months and recounted the Sabbaths of the years as we made (them), known to him. And what was and what will be he saw in a vision of his sleep, as it will happen to the children of men throughout their generations until the day of judgment; he saw and understood everything, and wrote his testimony, and placed the testimony on earth for all the children of men and for their generations. And in the twelfth jubilee, in the seventh week thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Edna, the daughter of Danel, the daughter of his father’s brother, and in the sixth year in this week she bare him a son and he called his name Methuselah. And he was moreover with the angels of God these six jubilees of years, and they showed him everything which is on earth and in the heavens, the rule of the sun, and he wrote down everything. And he testified to the Watchers, who had sinned with the daughters of men; for these had begun to unite themselves, so as to be defiled, with the daughters of men, and Enoch testified against (them) all. And he was taken from amongst the children of men, and we conducted him into the Garden of Eden in majesty and honour, and behold there he writes down the condemnation and judgment of the world, and all the wickedness of the children of men.

 

[patrick457]

…] And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth - all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually.

…] Noah began to enjoin upon his sons’ sons the ordinances and commandments, and all the judgments that he knew, and he exhorted his sons to observe righteousness, and to cover the shame of their flesh, and to bless their Creator, and honour father and mother, and love their neighbour, and guard their souls from fornication and uncleanness and all iniquity. For owing to these three things came the flood upon the earth, namely, owing to the fornication wherein the Watchers against the law of their ordinances went a whoring after the daughters of men, and took themselves wives of all which they chose: and they made the beginning of uncleanness. And they begat sons the Naphidim, and they were all unlike, and they devoured one another: and the Giants slew the Naphil, and the Naphil slew the Eljo, and the Eljo mankind, and one man another. And every one sold himself to work iniquity and to shed much blood, and the earth was filled with iniquity. And after this they sinned against the beasts and birds, and all that moves and walks on the earth: and much blood was shed on the earth, and every imagination and desire of men imagined vanity and evil continually.

• Book of Jubilees 4.14-24; 6.1-3; 7.20-25

So then I thought to myself that the conception was from Watchers or that the seed was from Holy Ones, or (belonged) to Nephil[im]; and my mind wavered because of this child. Then I, Lamech, became frightened, and I went to Bitenosh, my wi[fe and said to her,] “… by the Most High, by the Majestic Lord, the King of all A[ges], [with one of] the sons of heaven, that you truthfully make everything known to me, whether … you must tell me [truthfully] and without lies whether this .… Swear by the Most High, the Majestic Lord] by the King of all Ages that you are speaking to me truthfully and without lies …” Then Bitenosh, my wife, spoke to me with great vehemence; she cr[ied] and said, “O my brother and my lord, remember my pleasure … in the hea]t of the time, and my breath in the midst of its sheath. For *irth. And then my mind was much changed within me. … When Bathenosh, my wife, noticed that my expression had changed … then she suppressed her emotion, speaking to me and saying to me, “O my lord and [my brother, recall] my pleasure. I swear to you by the Great Holy One, the King of H[eaven] that this seed from you; from you is this conception, and from you the planting of this fruit …and not from any stranger, or from any of the Watchers, or from any of the sons of hea[ven. Why is the expression] of your face so changed and deformed? (Why) is your spirit so depressed? [For I] am speaking to you truthfully.” (vacat)
Then I, Lamech, ran to Methuselah, my father, and I [told] him all everything [that he might go to Enoch], his father, and learn everything from him with certainty. For he (Enoch) is beloved and a fa[vorite of God, and with the Holy Ones] is his lot apportioned; and they make everything known to him. When [my father] Methuselah heard [my words, he ran] to Enoch his father to learn all from him in truth. … his good pleasure. He through the length of the land of Parvaim, and there he found Eno[ch, his father]. He said to Enoch his father, “O my father and my lord, because I have come here to [you …] reverenced (?) by you … *

 

[patrick457]

… from iniquity; and in the womb of her who bore me I came out for uprightness; and when I came forth from my mother’s womb, I was planted for uprightness. (During all my days I have practiced uprightness, and I have been walking along the paths of everlasting truth; and with me the Holy One has been … on my tracks uprightness was settles, and to warn me away from the path(s) of deceit that lead to everlasting darkness … And I girded my loins in an appearance of uprightness and wisdom; in a robe … all the paths of violence. (vacat)
Then I Noah, became a man, and I clung to uprightness and strengthened myself in … [Ba]raqiel, and I took ‘Imzera’, his daughter, as my wife; she conceived from me and bore me th[re]e sons [and daughters] … Then I took wives for my sons from the daughters of my brothers, and I gave my daughters to the sons of my brothers according to the eternal law [which] the Most High gave to human beings. (vacat) And in my days, when there were completed for me, by the calculation by which I reckoned, … ten jubilees, then it came to pass(?) for my sons to take for themselves women in marriage … the heavens. In a vision I saw and was shown and informed about the conduct of the sons of heaven and what all … the heavens. I concealed this secret in my mind, and to no human being did I make it known. (vacat)
… to me by the great Watcher, to me by a messenger and by an emissary of the [Great] Holy One … and in a vision he spoke with me; he was standing before me … … in] the ending of the Great Holy One to me, I am hearing a voice: “To you, they say, O Noah, …” … and I pondered within me all the conduct of the children of the earth; I understood and made known all … they will split, and he chose(?) … them … … for] two weeks, and them from what wi[ll be] hidden … the blood which the Nephilim shed. I was at calm and I waited(?) until … holy ones who were with the daughters of men … I Noah, [fou]nd grace, greatness, and uprightness …

• Genesis Apocryphon (1Q20), cols. 2, 6

Flee, therefore, fornication, my children, and command your wives and your daughters, that they adorn not their heads and faces to deceive the mind: because every woman who useth these wiles hath been reserved for eternal punishment. For thus they allured the Watchers who were before the flood; for as these continually beheld them, they lusted after them, and they conceived the act in their mind; for they changed themselves into the shape of men, and appeared to them when they were with their husbands. And the women lusting in their minds after their forms, gave birth to giants, for the Watchers appeared to them as reaching even unto heaven.

• Testament of Reuben 5 (2.17-19)

Be ye, therefore, not eager to corrupt your doings through covetousness or with vain words to beguile your souls; because if ye keep silence in purity of heart, ye shall understand how to hold fast the will of God, and to cast away the will of Beliar. Sun and moon and stars, change not their order; so do ye also change not the law of God in the disorderliness of your doings. The Gentiles went astray, and forsook the Lord, and charged their order, and obeyed stocks and stones, spirits of deceit. But ye shall not be so, my children, recognizing in the firmament, in the earth, and in the sea, and in all created things, the Lord who made all things, that ye become not as Sodom, which changed the order of nature. In like manner the Watchers also changed the order of their nature, whom the Lord cursed at the flood, on whose account He made the earth without inhabitants and fruitless. These things I say unto you, my children, for I have read in the writing of Enoch that ye yourselves also shall depart from the Lord, walking according to all the lawlessness of the Gentiles, and ye shall do according to all the wickedness of Sodom.

• Testament of Naphtali (1.23-28)

… [E]noch after they/we taught him … six jubilees of years … [e]arth towards the children of men. And he testified against all of them … and against the Watchers. And he wrote all the … heaven and the ways of its host and the [mon]ths … [th]at the ri[ghteous] may not stray …

• Pseudo-Jubilees (4Q227), fr.2

 

[patrick457]

… And these are [the names of their chiefs]. Shemihazah wh[o was their head, Arataqo]ph (cf. En[sup]b[/sup]), his second; Ramta[el, third] to him: Kokabe[l, fourth to him; …el, fif]th to him; Ramae[l, sixth to him;] Daniel, seve[nth to him; Ziqiel (cf. En[sup]a,c[/sup]), eighth to him; Baraqel, nin[th to him]; Asael, tenth [to him; Hermoni (En[sup]c[/sup]), eleven]th to him; Matarel, twelf[th to him]: Ananel, thirteenth [to him]; Stawel, [fo]urteenth to him; Shamshi[el, fif]teenth to him; Shahriel, ixteenth to him; Tummiel, seven[teenth to him]; Turiel, eighteenth to him; Yomiel, nine[teenth] to him; [Yehaddiel, twentieth to him.] These are the chiefs of the chiefs of tens. The[se and] their chiefs [took for themselves] wives from all those whom they chose and [they began (En[sup]b[/sup]) to go in to them and defile themselves with them and to teach them sorcery and magic (En[sup]b[/sup])] … And they became pregnant by them and bo[re giants] …

• 4Q201 1=En[sup]a[/sup]

And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. These are their chiefs of tens. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another’s flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

• 1 Enoch 6.7-7.6

NOW this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers; and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness, whereby they made God to be their enemy. For many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but seeing they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land.

• Josephus, Antiquities, 1.3.1

 

[patrick457]

I should add that yes, the tradition of the Nephilim being violent giants is not explicitly found in the Hebrew text of Genesis, although it appears in the Septuagint and as we’ve seen, in a number of Second Temple period literature.

 

[brb3]

Numbers 13:32-33
"And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.

The Nephilim are demons offspring from human women. Demons did not die in the flood and neither did humans.

Therefore it could have happened again.

On further research …the Nephilim were the Godless, Bloodthirsty, Raging ( Viking-like) offspring of the Godly sons of Seth’s offspring…who chased after and Wed the unruly, loose daughters of Cain’s lineage.

They were not the resultant of Angel or Demon matings with humans…but, they were demonic in their living …and God sent Great Flood to remove them from Earth.

 

[patrick457]

Doubtful. …

Is an Angel allowed to take the flesh of Mankind ?

Scripture teaches, Christ said, that in heaven we are not given / taken in marriage, but with bodies like the angels.

That would seem to preclude sexual IC, by an Angel ?

Unless, the rules in the first age of Mankind were different !!

In the Book of the Watchers (the first section of 1 Enoch) at least, the Watchers (Aramaic: 'Irin, Greek: Egregoroi) are shown to be spirits who were tasked to keep watch over mankind. They soon began to lust after human women and defected en masse to mate with them. The Watchers soon attempted to pleaded their case to Heaven via Enoch, but were promptly turned down due to the gravity of their offense: on top of going AWOL, they have revealed the secrets of Heaven and forbidden arts to mankind and ruined the earth due to their illicit union with humans. Being immortal spirits, they were originally not supposed to marry or beget children as humans do (which is why according to the author there were no female spirits). As a result of their crime, the rebel Watchers were condemned to remain on the earth and to be imprisoned in a valley of judgment; they were then given the name of ‘evil spirits’.

 

[katholikos12]

On further research …the Nephilim were the Godless, Bloodthirsty, Raging ( Viking-like) offspring of the Godly sons of Seth’s offspring…who chased after and Wed the unruly, loose daughters of Cain’s lineage.

They were not the resultant of Angel or Demon matings with humans…but, they were demonic in their living …and God sent Great Flood to remove them from Earth.

What further research?

If Nephilim were giants and the Bible says there were nephilim post flood, and Goliath was a giant/nephilim … why couldn’t they have been nephilim?

Again the Scriptures and ancient oral tradition say and indicate that nephilim are offspring of demons and women.

 

[katholikos12]

In the Book of the Watchers (the first section of 1 Enoch) at least, the Watchers (Aramaic: 'Irin, Greek: Egregoroi) are shown to be spirits who were tasked to keep watch over mankind. They soon began to lust after human women and defected en masse to mate with them. The Watchers soon attempted to pleaded their case to Heaven via Enoch, but were promptly turned down due to the gravity of their offense: on top of going AWOL, they have revealed the secrets of Heaven and forbidden arts to mankind and ruined the earth due to their illicit union with humans. Being immortal spirits, they were originally not supposed to marry or beget children as humans do (which is why according to the author there were no female spirits). As a result of their crime, the rebel Watchers were condemned to remain on the earth and to be imprisoned in a valley of judgment; they were then given the name of ‘evil spirits’.

Watchers sound like guardian angels gone bad.

 

[brb3]

In the Book of the Watchers (the first section of 1 Enoch) at least, the Watchers (Aramaic: 'Irin, Greek: Egregoroi) are shown to be spirits who were tasked to keep watch over mankind. They soon began to lust after human women and defected en masse to mate with them. The Watchers soon attempted to pleaded their case to Heaven via Enoch, but were promptly turned down due to the gravity of their offense: on top of going AWOL, they have revealed the secrets of Heaven and forbidden arts to mankind and ruined the earth due to their illicit union with humans. Being immortal spirits, they were originally not supposed to marry or beget children as humans do (which is why according to the author there were no female spirits). As a result of their crime, the rebel Watchers were condemned to remain on the earth and to be imprisoned in a valley of judgment; they were then given the name of ‘evil spirits’.

Patrick…

Lets state for the record that Enoch is not accepted as divinely inspired. Its not in any Canon, Christian or Hebrew. Wasn’t in the Septuagint …and one of major issues leading to its rejection was this myth, fiction of Angels having IC with humans.

 

[brb3]

What further research?

If Nephilim were giants and the Bible says there were nephilim post flood, and Goliath was a giant/nephilim … why couldn’t they have been nephilim?

Again the Scriptures and ancient oral tradition say and indicate that nephilim are offspring of demons and women.

St. Augustine talks to this in his CITY OF GOD.
Scott Hahn covers the topic very convincingly in his book A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISES, (Chp. 4, Wayward Sons)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Patrick…

Lets state for the record that Enoch is not accepted as divinely inspired. Its not in any Canon, Christian or Hebrew. Wasn’t in the Septuagint …and one of major issues leading to its rejection was this myth, fiction of Angels having IC with humans.

True, neither are any of the American history books but we still use them as reference .

However, didn’t St. Jude quote from it?

[bibledrb]Jude 1:14[/bibledrb]

 

[brb3]

True, neither are any of the American history books but we still use them as reference .

However, didn’t St. Jude quote from it?

[bibledrb]Jude 1:14[/bibledrb]

Well, maybe the part Jude quotes is correct …but, the Angel issue in Enoch is pure myth !

 

[katholikos12]

Well, maybe the part Jude quotes is correct …but, the Angel issue in Enoch is pure myth !

So that verse is canon… but the entire book is bunk? and all the other traditions and writings (albeit non-canonical) that support it are not true?

Even the BIBLE says that demons bred with women, so i don’t know what angel part you are talking about being myth…

 

[brb3]

So that verse is canon… but the entire book is bunk? and all the other traditions and writings (albeit non-canonical) that support it are not true?

Even the BIBLE says that demons bred with women, so i don’t know what angel part you are talking about being myth…

Go to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA…lookup Book of Enoch …and u will find history thereof !
When the Catholic Canon of Books of Bible was set …Enoch didn’t make the cut, was believed not God-Breathed inspiration…and was ignored ever thereafter !

 

[katholikos12]

Go to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA…lookup Book of Enoch …and u will find history thereof !
When the Catholic Canon of Books of Bible was set …Enoch didn’t make the cut, was believed not God-Breathed inspiration…and was ignored ever thereafter !

the bible bible bible says nephilim were demons bred with women!!!

are you reading my posts or not?