Never ending torture in hell

[Lily_Bernans]

Lucia did not say in 1960, she said not till AFTER 1960. God Bless, Memaw

Doesn’t make a bit of difference. The point is, Lucia set a date far into the future for information knowing Our Lady did not set any date on it. Our Lady did not prohibit its release, and if she wanted the world to know, Lucia shouldn’t have overridden that.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Well you kinda implied that the Fatima children were imagining their visions of hell.

It was a private revelation. I don’t know what they saw or didn’t see. It was intended for them, not us, or it would have been revealed to us, too, by Our Lady. I have no basis on which to form a judgment.

I don’t doubt that Our Lady did appear to them at Fatima, though.

 

[eddie_too]

if people go to judgment hating God, should God overpower their free wills and make them love Him in some mysterious, spiritual manner?

the torture of hell lies in the free and eternal rejection of God, of His Goodness, of His love.

how could God have demonstrated how much He loves His human creatures more than in lowering Himself to actually be one of them, and then to go through His passion and death, and then to defeat death?

 

[Telstar]

Doesn’t make a bit of difference. The point is, Lucia set a date far into the future for information knowing Our Lady did not set any date on it. Our Lady did not prohibit its release, and if she wanted the world to know, Lucia shouldn’t have overridden that.

CONVERSATION WITH SISTER MARIA LUCIA OF JESUS AND THE IMMACULATE HEART
The rest of this conversation can be found, here: EWTN

The meeting between Sister Lucia, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent by the Holy Father, and Bishop Serafim de Sousa Ferreira e Silva, Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, took place on Thursday, 27 April 2000, in the Carmel of Saint Teresa in Coimbra.

“Before giving the sealed envelope containing the third part of the “secret” to the then Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Sister Lucia wrote on the outside envelope that it could be opened only after 1960, either by the Patriarch of Lisbon or the Bishop of Leiria. Archbishop Bertone therefore asked: “Why only after 1960? Was it Our Lady who fixed that date?” Sister Lucia replied: “It was not Our Lady. I fixed the date because I had the intuition that before 1960 it would not be understood, but that only later would it be understood. Now it can be better understood. I wrote down what I saw; however it was not for me to interpret it, but for the Pope.”
(emphasis mine)

 

[Techno2000]

It was a private revelation. I don’t know what they saw or didn’t see. It was intended for them, not us, or it would have been revealed to us, too, by Our Lady. I have no basis on which to form a judgment.

I don’t doubt that Our Lady did appear to them at Fatima, though.

I think the reason God doesn’t just show everybody Hell is because people wouldn’t come to him out of free will, but out of fear.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

CONVERSATION WITH SISTER MARIA LUCIA OF JESUS AND THE IMMACULATE HEART
The rest of this conversation can be found, here: EWTN

The meeting between Sister Lucia, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent by the Holy Father, and Bishop Serafim de Sousa Ferreira e Silva, Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, took place on Thursday, 27 April 2000, in the Carmel of Saint Teresa in Coimbra.

“Before giving the sealed envelope containing the third part of the “secret” to the then Bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Sister Lucia wrote on the outside envelope that it could be opened only after 1960, either by the Patriarch of Lisbon or the Bishop of Leiria. Archbishop Bertone therefore asked: “Why only after 1960? Was it Our Lady who fixed that date?” Sister Lucia replied: “It was not Our Lady. I fixed the date because I had the intuition that before 1960 it would not be understood, but that only later would it be understood. Now it can be better understood. I wrote down what I saw; however it was not for me to interpret it, but for the Pope.”
(emphasis mine)

Thank you. I have read that in the past. I don’t mean to be stubborn (that is a trait I’m not fond of), but I still don’t understand. If Lucia knew she wasn’t to interpret it, why not let the Holy Father decide when it should be made public? As it is, it was anti-climactic when made public. It was sort of, “Well, gee, I could have told you that!” I mean no disrespect for the children of Fatima, who I believe were pious and holy, or for Our Lady, who I love and revere.

Now we have all this going on in eastern Europe, and the last I heard, the Church was “cautiously optimistic.” It’s hard for me to take people seriously when they say, “Our Lady told ten of us a ‘secret’ but you can’t know it.” I just think if Our Lady is making things known, then she wants the world to know.

I don’t delve into these private revelations much, so that is part of my own personal problem with them, I’m sure.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think the reason God doesn’t just show everybody Hell is because people wouldn’t come to him out of free will, but out of fear.

Perhaps. I know I fear hell, but even if no hell existed, I would still cultivate my personal relationship with Christ.

 

[Techno2000]

Perhaps. I know I fear hell, but even if no hell existed, I would still cultivate my personal relationship with Christ.

The whole point of fatima was for us believers to make intercession for the people of the world thru the Fatima prayer… O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The whole point of fatima was for us believers to make intercession for the people of the world thru the Fatima prayer… O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.

People already knew to do that, didn’t they? The world has been a mess for a long time.

Okay, I understand that part. I also guess I understand the third part, which is Lucia’s vision of the Holy Father, priests, religious, etc.

But what was all that about Russia? No one could pray that the Soviet Union would collapse, be reformed, etc. unless they knew Our Lady had asked for their prayers. Perhaps that was made public prior to 1950. I don’t really know.

 

[utah_rose]

I just completed a study on the different views of hell and I am mystified on how evangelicals and protestants believe that God tortures people forever in fire. Catholic teaching seems to have abandoned this long ago in favor of a more rational and educated assessment of scripture on this subject. I looked up many of the most popular TV evangelists and religious groups and most all have this view. Some are very educated people with a large following and I just find it hard to believe how anyone can support such a barbaric and sadistic teaching. Many of them are good people that seem to be honest in their position and don’t seem to be looking just to strike fear and control their flock. My question is since if they are sincere in this belief why doesn’t the Holy Spirit lead them away from this divisive teaching that clearly gives skeptics reason to bash Christianity and avoid the faith all together?

In my study I looked up 75 New Testament References on hell and can only find one that supports the traditional view of never ending torture and that one is a parable that was not intended to teach on hell (Rich man and Lazarus).

CT

I don’t know if you believe in Fatima or not, but our Lady did show the children the fires of hell. If it actually isn’t fire, the pain may be the same. Hell is for real. Check your Catechism.

 

[CLearthinking04]

I don’t know if you believe in Fatima or not, but our Lady did show the children the fires of hell. If it actually isn’t fire, the pain may be the same. Hell is for real. Check your Catechism.

I never said hell is not for real and that the torment is not real. What I am saying is that using the image of fire as literal torture chamber for all eternity is an intrinsically unethical act of cosmic overkill. Consider this scenario which I witnessed the human side of these events; There was once a man who lived a licentious life. When he grew old he became ill. His sister, a devout Catholic cared for him, took him in because he had no money or no-where to stay. She nursed him on his death bed and the great love of Christ shone through her eyes to him as he looked up at her afraid of dying but at that moment knew he was loved. Then he passed away. The scene was very moving. I have personally taken care of people when they were very sick and it actually changed the way I feel about humanity and how vulnerable and in need of love we all are. Jesus fulfills that love in the most perfect way.

So tell me, after all that I witnessed in these events, am I supposed to believe that the man who passed away will now and forever be tortured by literal flames for all eternity? The Jesus and great God that taught me love now says that these people will be treated worse than the people that suffered in the holocaust? The God who says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you now does the complete opposite?

If that’s the case then why bother loving anyone, I mean what’s the point of it all if they are only going to get tortured for ever and ever.

There is something wrong with the interpretation that fire is a literal fire. And oh yes I am aware that eternal separation is also bad. I can only accept by faith that somehow God has it all under control and what ever he decides to do to handle a necessary part of reality, (dealing with people who rejected Him), he will do in the most ethical way. I just can’t see a never ending firey torture chamber as part of his plan. The flames must be a metaphor is both scripture and the message from Fatima.

 

[Techno2000]

I never said hell is not for real and that the torment is not real. What I am saying is that using the image of fire as literal torture chamber for all eternity is an intrinsically unethical act of cosmic overkill. Consider this scenario which I witnessed the human side of these events; There was once a man who lived a licentious life. When he grew old he became ill. His sister, a devout Catholic cared for him, took him in because he had no money or no-where to stay. She nursed him on his death bed and the great love of Christ shone through her eyes to him as he looked up at her afraid of dying but at that moment knew he was loved. Then he passed away. The scene was very moving. I have personally taken care of people when they were very sick and it actually changed the way I feel about humanity and how vulnerable and in need of love we all are. Jesus fulfills that love in the most perfect way.

So tell me, after all that I witnessed in these events, am I supposed to believe that the man who passed away will now and forever be tortured by literal flames for all eternity? The Jesus and great God that taught me love now says that these people will be treated worse than the people that suffered in the holocaust? The God who says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you now does the complete opposite?

If that’s the case then why bother loving anyone, I mean what’s the point of it all if they are only going to get tortured for ever and ever.

There is something wrong with the interpretation that fire is a literal fire. And oh yes I am aware that eternal separation is also bad. I can only accept by faith that somehow God has it all under control and what ever he decides to do to handle a necessary part of reality, (dealing with people who rejected Him), he will do in the most ethical way. I just can’t see a never ending firey torture chamber as part of his plan. The flames must be a metaphor is both scripture and the message from Fatima.

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

 

[Telstar]

I never said hell is not for real and that the torment is not real. What I am saying is that using the image of fire as literal torture chamber for all eternity is an intrinsically unethical act of cosmic overkill.

OK. So, you do believe that Hell is real, and the torment is real. But, you’re saying that God should never have told anyone that Hell was full of fire that would cause them some kind of pain, forever, because you think it’s unethical for Him to scare people like that? Seriously? Do you think He should have just told us a fairy tale? Maybe He could have told one about how people might be able to toast marshmallows around the big campfire that’s in Hell, instead? Do you think that would have the right effect, though? I tend to doubt it would have been a sufficiently effective deterrent against sin, unless you really hate toasting marshmallows around a campfire. Maybe I just have a poor perception of which portrayal of Hell would create a better deterrent against sin, in the mind of the person that hears it.

Consider this scenario which I witnessed the human side of these events; There was once a man who lived a licentious life. When he grew old he became ill. His sister, a devout Catholic cared for him, took him in because he had no money or no-where to stay. She nursed him on his death bed and the great love of Christ shone through her eyes to him as he looked up at her afraid of dying but at that moment knew he was loved. Then he passed away. The scene was very moving. I have personally taken care of people when they were very sick and it actually changed the way I feel about humanity and how vulnerable and in need of love we all are. Jesus fulfills that love in the most perfect way.

So tell me, after all that I witnessed in these events, am I supposed to believe that the man who passed away will now and forever be tortured by literal flames for all eternity? The Jesus and great God that taught me love now says that these people will be treated worse than the people that suffered in the holocaust? The God who says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you now does the complete opposite?

Who are you to decide whether or not that man would have gone to hell at all? Did he tell you that he absolutely hated God, or are you just judging him by how you think he lived his life? Do you know for sure what he really felt about God in the depths of his heart? God certainly knows whether or not he was truly sorry for his sins, but you can’t. So, why would you assume he’s in hell? You know what happens when we assume, don’t you? Tony Randall explained it very well in the Odd Couple. You can see it for yourself on youtube.

If that’s the case then why bother loving anyone, I mean what’s the point of it all if they are only going to get tortured for ever and ever.

People that truly love God and others don’t end up in hell. It’s the ones that are filled with greed, jealousy, and hate that go there, because they don’t know anything about love. They don’t care about anyone but themselves.

There is something wrong with the interpretation that fire is a literal fire. And oh yes I am aware that eternal separation is also bad. I can only accept by faith that somehow God has it all under control and what ever he decides to do to handle a necessary part of reality, (dealing with people who rejected Him), he will do in the most ethical way. I just can’t see a never ending firey torture chamber as part of his plan. The flames must be a metaphor is both scripture and the message from Fatima.

Maybe you should just ask Jesus why He talked so much about the fires of Hell, and all the evil people that go there. Maybe He can explain it to you, or even show you what it’s really like. I wouldn’t recommend it though. You probably wouldn’t like what you might see. More than likely it would just scare the Hell out of you. Been there, done that… not fun.

 

[Techno2000]

Been there, done that… not fun.

Ok, I’m intrigued you had some kinda NDE ?

 

[Telstar]

Ok, I’m intrigued you had some kinda NDE ?

Nope, it wasn’t a NDE. It was something that I experienced many years ago, that I will never forget. Some people might not think it was anything special, but it was to me. It changed my life. When I was in my late teens/very early twenties, I started drifting a bit too far away from the Church. I was always interested in spiritual things, so I dabbled in some spiritual stuff that I should never have dabbled in. My sister-in-law (who the family referred to as ‘saint __’), was gently trying to show me where I was going wrong, but I was always rather pigheaded (tête de pioche).

I really wanted to believe her, so one night I decided to pray for a “sign”, to let me know if what she was telling me was true. In hindsight, that was probably not my best idea. Later that night, I had a very long vivid dream that had several different parts. The last part of it may have just been a vision of the souls in Purgatory, or it might have been Hell. I’m not really sure. All I know is there were transparent people floating all around me with visible expressions of pain on their faces, all suspended in total blackness. The only reason I could see them was because they all glowed an eerie shade of orange, like hot coals. The only other thing I could see were the tongues of fire that were flickering everywhere.

The scariest part of all was that when I finally managed to wake myself up, I looked around the room and could still see the flames, all around me. I woke up my husband with all my sobbing, so I got up and went out to the kitchen so he could sleep. But, no matter where I went around the house, I couldn’t get away from the flames. They were everywhere. Whether my eyes were open or shut, it didn’t matter. Turning on the lights didn’t help much, either.

The whole time I just kept praying and begging the Blessed Mother to please, make it go away. I finally ended up going back to bed because I was so exhausted. It slowly began to fade as I was laying there, but never actually went away completely until I finally fell back to sleep. But, that’s only part of it, along with some of it’s after effects. It was a very long night and not a pleasant experience, to say the least. :bigyikes:

 

[Memaw]

Doesn’t make a bit of difference. The point is, Lucia set a date far into the future for information knowing Our Lady did not set any date on it. Our Lady did not prohibit its release, and if she wanted the world to know, Lucia shouldn’t have overridden that.

How do YOU know Our Lady didn’t tell Lucia that, were you there?? I don’t think Sr. Lucia would lie about a thing like that, do you??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Techno2000]

Nope, it wasn’t a NDE. It was something that I experienced many years ago, that I will never forget. Some people might not think it was anything special, but it was to me. It changed my life. When I was in my late teens/very early twenties, I started drifting a bit too far away from the Church. I was always interested in spiritual things, so I dabbled in some spiritual stuff that I should never have dabbled in. My sister-in-law (who the family referred to as ‘saint __’), was gently trying to show me where I was going wrong, but I was always rather pigheaded (tête de pioche).

I really wanted to believe her, so one night I decided to pray for a “sign”, to let me know if what she was telling me was true. In hindsight, that was probably not my best idea. Later that night, I had a very long vivid dream that had several different parts. The last part of it may have just been a vision of the souls in Purgatory, or it might have been Hell. I’m not really sure. All I know is there were transparent people floating all around me with visible expressions of pain on their faces, all suspended in total blackness. The only reason I could see them was because they all glowed an eerie shade of orange, like hot coals. The only other thing I could see were the tongues of fire that were flickering everywhere.

The scariest part of all was that when I finally managed to wake myself up, I looked around the room and could still see the flames, all around me. I woke up my husband with all my sobbing, so I got up and went out to the kitchen so he could sleep. But, no matter where I went around the house, I couldn’t get away from the flames. They were everywhere. Whether my eyes were open or shut, it didn’t matter. Turning on the lights didn’t help much, either.

The whole time I just kept praying and begging the Blessed Mother to please, make it go away. I finally ended up going back to bed because I was so exhausted. It slowly began to fade as I was laying there, but never actually went away completely until I finally fell back to sleep. But, that’s only part of it, along with some of it’s after effects. It was a very long night and not a pleasant experience, to say the least. :bigyikes:

One afternoon I took nap, during this sleep I woke up, but was still stuck in my sleep body and couldn’t move. The reason I woke up (still paralyzed in my body) was because I sensed something dropping from the ceiling, it was a transparent gray foot and ankle and it give off a electrical hum.The next thing this foot did was try to smash my head into my pillow, I Could feel my hair being moved around and it was somewhat painful, I started saying all the prayers I knew until this thing lifted off of me and I woke up for real.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

How do YOU know Our Lady didn’t tell Lucia that, were you there?? I don’t think Sr. Lucia would lie about a thing like that, do you??? God Bless, Memaw

Lucia said Our Lady set no date for the release of the information, and I believe Lucia. That’s how I know. You seem nice enough, but sometimes you get a little too high and mighty with those who don’t agree with you completely or think you are always right. None of us is always right…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Ok, I’m intrigued you had some kinda NDE ?

Remember a NDE is a “near death” experience. It is not an experience of death. Dead people do not come back to life. (I know Jesus brought some back to life, but we meet the risen Christ in the Holy Eucharist today.) The people who had those experiences were not dead, and usually under the influence of anesthesia and/or various drugs. Peter Kreeft, if you are familiar with his writings, says we cannot put stock in NDEs.

However, Kreeft does write about people who have had contact with “another world” while perfectly healthy. He puts much more stock in those experiences. I, too, have had those experiences, but mine have always been good ones.

I have almost no fear of hell. I’m far from perfect, but I do love Christ beyond measure, and I trust he will take me to heaven (I don’t rule out purgatory, though, and I’m working on trying to shorten my time there.)

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Nope, it wasn’t a NDE. It was something that I experienced many years ago, that I will never forget. Some people might not think it was anything special, but it was to me. It changed my life.

I believe it was something special and life changing. I’ve had experiences with two who have died, one in particular, but they were good experiences. Unless a person has had a religious experience like that, I don’t think they can understand the reality of it. It’s as real as the world outside my window.