Never ending torture in hell

[TRON]

Interesting thread
At the end of the day, Heaven is going to be more wonderful than what we could ever conceive, and Hell is going to be a lot worse that what we could ever conceive (or be related to us literally or metaphorically)

 

[JustaServant]

Herein lies the problem for our evangelical friends:
The teaching of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS). I’m not trying to derail the thread, but you cannot discuss the topic without this coming into the picture. I’ve heard fundamentalist preachers say: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ But this teaching has a dark side.
If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (myself, if I believed in OSAS), than I can be equally sure who is going to Hell (people other than me). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind are ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn’t have the “right beliefs.” Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to.
It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.
The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): “There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell.” Jesus turned that around and said: “There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents.”
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’.
Obviously Jesus did not.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Agreed, but do we follow God because we are afraid of hell of because we tasted the goodness of Christ and naturally want to give up all and follow Him?

It would be hall to be separated from God because I love him and want to serve him eternally. One usually wants to help and be close to the ones one loves.

 

[dronald]

Herein lies the problem for our evangelical friends:
The teaching of ‘once saved, always saved’ (OSAS). I’m not trying to derail the thread, but you cannot discuss the topic without this coming into the picture. I’ve heard fundamentalist preachers say: ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus Himself!’ But this teaching has a dark side.
If I can ‘be sure’ who is going to Heaven (myself, if I believed in OSAS), than I can be equally sure who is going to Hell (people other than me). This ‘knowledge’ of who is destined for Hell plays into a destructive psychological pattern.
A former Pentecostal pastor once recounted a strange service he attended once. The preacher was giving a sermon on Hell and began to name those he was ‘sure’ are either in Hell, or headed there. “They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell! They’re going to Hell!” the crowd began to chant over and over in a bizarre fashion.
There is a strange and sick satisfaction people have in ‘knowing’ their enemies are ‘burning in Hell’. It gives them a feeling of ‘justice’.
For extreme Calvinists, this gets into their theology that a portion of humankind are ‘predestined to Hell’. A recent survey found 60% of born-again Christians say people were going to hell because they didn’t have the “right beliefs.” Whose beliefs are right is dependent upon the person you are talking to.
It reflects a lack of compassion, hope, and love. It feeds into a person’s unforgiveness and bitterness toward another. In dehumanizing them with the curse of “They’re going to Hell,” it relieves them of any responsibility.
The Pharisees of Jesus day had a saying (from ancient Jewish writings): “There is joy in Heaven when a sinner drops into Hell.” Jesus turned that around and said: “There is joy in heaven when a sinner repents.”
The Pharisees believed in a kind of ‘OSAS’.
Obviously Jesus did not.

Man, you’ve had a crazy Church upbringing; no wonder you’re out, haha.

From what I’ve found, most Evangelicals will say they’re not allowed to judge. I guess maybe it’s your location.

Sometimes it’s tough, because I’m Canadian and a lot of the “Evangelicals” with crazy stories are usually referring to somewhere in the Southern States.

 

[ChaosGamma]

Agreed, but do we follow God because we are afraid of hell of because we tasted the goodness of Christ and naturally want to give up all and follow Him?

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” Proverbs 9:10

Quoth St. Benedict:
“Having, therefore, ascended all these degrees of humility, the monk will presently arrive at that love of God, which being perfect, casteth out fear (1 Jn 4:18). In virtue of this love all things which at first he observed not without fear, he will now begin to keep without any effort, and as it were, naturally by force of habit, no longer from the fear of hell, but from the love of Christ, from the very habit of good and the pleasure in virtue. May the Lord be pleased to manifest all this by His Holy Spirit in His laborer now cleansed from vice and sin.”

 

[JustaServant]

Man, you’ve had a crazy Church upbringing; no wonder you’re out, haha.

From what I’ve found, most Evangelicals will say they’re not allowed to judge. I guess maybe it’s your location.

Sometimes it’s tough, because I’m Canadian and a lot of the “Evangelicals” with crazy stories are usually referring to somewhere in the Southern States.

Actually I was brought up Catholic. When I was young (and “knew everything”) I started hanging out with Independent Baptists (because I liked Jerry Falwell back then). But age that which comes with age, the realization that I did not “know everything”, eventually led me back to the Catholic Church.

 

[Memaw]

Well I have absolutely no trouble believing private revelation if the Catholic Church approves them, they are a great enlightenment.

AMEN, we are a lot wiser to trust the Church than our “own opinion.” Only the 3erd Secret was not to be told right away. Not to be released until after 1960. It was up to the Pope when. And there were things that Jesus told the Apostles not to tell. God Bless, Memaw

 

[benhur]

So you are saying that because of the dignity of God, created beings that fall short of salvation are tortured mercilessly for ever and ever in burning flames. Doesn’t this completely barbaric and sadistic act make God worse than Hitler and the Holocaust look like a day at the beach? I think we can agree that is not possible. Wouldn’t complete destruction be more humane? Also there is enough scriptures to support a second death final destruction without never ending torture. The verses that support eternal actions can be interpreted both ways. CT

Well there are times that kind of death would seem just fine for some, especially if depressed or buffeted by life or the the devil himself. You know, wish you had never been born. Which incidentally , why does Christ say for example about the son of perdition that it would have been better had he not been born ? What is the big deal , you just die twice. I mean we die once so why not again? No, that tells me there is something worse than death, like living forever with what you have done.

As others have suggested Hitler kills millions and gets same punishment as say one who only kills once or even never but just is not “saved” and is that just ?

You also forget about the dignity and composition of man. Can God kill Himself or something that has His essence ? He did not kill Lucifer and the angels. I mean what is a human being ? What is the dignity of the thing you create and then you snuff out ?

You keep using the word tortured and mercilessly quite out of context. But I know what you mean. Hell seems real bad deal and to hard to imagine, or wrap our heads around it. Strange we do not have that problem about heaven, yet we only have a taste of both here. But yes, hell is harder to accept, but I would consider it our flaw in perspective and maturity, and not a flaw with God.

Ironically, if we really did see the truth about hell we might be evangelizing differently. I mean I say I believe in eternal hell but my actions towards others, the lost, is out of kilter with it. Christ however was not . He left His heavenly throne, become a man, was humiliated and crucified to save us from hell. Quite drastic and to solve a drastic problem, part of it this the hell you can not fathom. No wonder he mentions hell more than any other biblical figure. Can you tell me of a more drastic move on God’s part that he could do to save us ?

Yes , some see annihilation, as do the Jehovahs Witnesses. I am not sure who has supported your view that was mainstream Catholic/Christian, but I wouldn’t doubt there are some.

Blessings

 

[CLearthinking04]

So then what part of “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” do you agree/disagree/reinterpret?

Um, you should look again that this scripture, I believe is in Revelation. The intent of this torment is for the beast and the false prophet or that old serpent called the devil and his angels. This was not intended for man. Revelation makes a distinction here.

Also we need to exercise caution when interpreting highly symbolic passages. For example the beast is identified in scripture as and evil nation, if you ever studied prophecy and how to interpret prophetic works. So an evil nation tormented for ever and ever doesn’t make sense when using a literal interpretation.

 

[JustaServant]

This is the interpretative problem I am having. Do we follow Jesus because we love Jesus or follow Jesus because we fear hell? It seems an insincere motive and why would professing Christians want to gain converts that are insincere. I suppose a case can be made for using fear as an entry point into the faith because God can meet anyone where they are in life and then as they grow in the faith see a more ethical side of God.

That’s why the connection with OSAS. Once I am “saved” (past tense) I have no fear of Hell because I am “sure” I am going to Heaven. It’s all based on that little word “sure”. If I am “not sure” I am not going to Heaven, then I CAN be “sure” I am going to Hell.
So the focus for the fundamentalist is not on Jesus, but to be “sure”.

 

[BlueKnight]

Does anyone really say God tortures people in hell ? I do not even see that in rich man and Lazarus. That they are suffering yes, but do folks say God is doing it ?

My take on it is this.The more important and crucial saving someone is, the more important and crucial is the saving act (Calvary). The bigger the crime, the bigger the consequence and the bigger price for justice. You want to lessen the consequence ? Ok, that lessens the crime, and lessens the price needed to get out of it.

The bigger the dignity and nature of God and man, the bigger the consequence for sinning against those natures. Lessening the consequence lessens the dignity of those sinned against.

That captures the essence of it and is theologically sound.

We have to choose between a total possession by god or by hell. Those are your only two choices. Finding out about both as much as possible is re commended before
Judging or choosing.

It is also interesting to read what the saints have to say about hell, pergatory, and heaven.

Something that is often overlooked however is that there are also degrees or levels of hell, pergatory, and heaven.

Please pray for me to be worthy of heaven, and of the best place I can achieve through gods grace, mercy, and providence.

 

[CLearthinking04]

1. As others have suggested Hitler kills millions and gets same punishment as say one who only kills once or even never but just is not “saved” and is that just ?
2. You also forget about the dignity and composition of man. Can God kill Himself or something that has His essence ? He did not kill Lucifer and the angels. I mean what is a human being ? What is the dignity of the thing you create and then you snuff out ?

Blessings

1. Is it really about keeping score? Isn’t eternal death enough of a punishment for anyone or kills one or millions? Do you equate eternal torture in fire as more humane than death. Even we humans know enough to put down a rabid animal and not torture it in anger.
2. Again, eternal torture (or torment is the same thing when fire is taken literally), would lessen the dignity of both the tortured and the torturer.

My whole issue with how we define hell is centered on using symbolic language literally that blasts the whole meaning out of proportion.

 

[dronald]

Um, you should look again that this scripture, I believe is in Revelation. The intent of this torment is for the beast and the false prophet or that old serpent called the devil and his angels. This was not intended for man. Revelation makes a distinction here.

Okay, so I’m going to break down your beliefs as best as possible based on everything we’ve said so far.

So apparently if this torment is not for man, then the false prophet is not a man. But Paul says

2 thess 3: Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

So perhaps this “man” is a different man? Or a symbolic man, and not a man at all? Or perhaps you’re separating this man and his “eternal torture” as you say from other men? Are you saying that God will give him a special soul that can last extra long in the lake of fire? The same lake of fire that all sinners are thrown into according to the Bible.

Remember, the passage here is Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was **thrown into the lake of fire **and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Contrast with just 5 passages down:

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Are you here saying these are two different lakes of fire? Or the false prophet has a special soul that can last eternity in the lake of fire? Or are you saying “lake of fire” is a symbol for something else, and “tormented day and night forever and ever” really means eternal destruction or something? Are you sure you’re not just reading what you want it to say because you can’t believe that it’s moral for God to do this?

Also we need to exercise caution when interpreting highly symbolic passages. For example the beast is identified in scripture as and evil nation, if you ever studied prophecy and how to interpret prophetic works. So an evil nation tormented for ever and ever doesn’t make sense when using a literal interpretation.

Then what is “tormented forever and ever”? You don’t believe a nation can be thrown into a lake of fire? The whole point of Revelation is to show there will be many who reject and hate God in the end.

And again, Jesus says similar things: Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. ’

So I suppose the fire is quenched? Please explain.

 

[BlueKnight]

Um, you should look again that this scripture, I believe is in Revelation. The intent of this torment is for the beast and the false prophet or that old serpent called the devil and his angels. This was not intended for man. Revelation makes a distinction here.

Also we need to exercise caution when interpreting highly symbolic passages. For example the beast is identified in scripture as and evil nation, if you ever studied prophecy and how to interpret prophetic works. So an evil nation tormented for ever and ever doesn’t make sense when using a literal interpretation.

I believe some if the confusion about hell is because of the various different descriptions of it.

The bottomless pit is one of different locations in hell there are others such as the outer darkness.

One of the things I noticed about life is how often chemical and physics laws seem to support theological ones.

For instance the chemical law of like attracts like. How water and oil do not mix.

The people in heaven lived a life of love, prayer, self sacrifice, purity, and truth. No wonder they are attracted to and end up in heaven.

Those in hell abandoned god in their lives to pursue hate, unbelief, money, lust, and self. They rejected god in their life and at death.

By choosing hell and choosing to reject god they choose an existence absent from god and with like minded folks namely demons. Hell was created for the bad angels
Not man. It is satans plan to deprive human souls of god and keep them in hell for eternity as a type of booty.

If hell is so bad the person you should blame is satan.

Lastly though, we are debating things we do not fully understand and cannot fully understand with our fallen human intellect.

I think jesus says it best when comparing hell to Gehenna, the trash dump Outside of the holy city.

Jesus came to give us a provided for expected death. This was our cleansing from sin by his blood. Human and demonic agency has striven to deprive souls of this great blessing so as to make the sacrifice of the only son of god moot.

God will step in soon and rid our world of these heaven depriving agencies and re create the earth to a pre fall state.

 

[BlueKnight]

I believe the confusion has to do with a perceived lack of mercy from god when really it is a cause of his justice.

Morality matters and being a good and holy person matters.

 

[Memaw]

I believe some if the confusion about hell is because of the various different descriptions of it.

The bottomless pit is one of different locations in hell there are others such as the outer darkness.

One of the things I noticed about life is how often chemical and physics laws seem to support theological ones.

For instance the chemical law of like attracts like. How water and oil do not mix.

The people in heaven lived a life of love, prayer, self sacrifice, purity, and truth. No wonder they are attracted to and end up in heaven.

Those in hell abandoned god in their lives to pursue hate, unbelief, money, lust, and self. They rejected god in their life and at death.

By choosing hell and choosing to reject god they choose an existence absent from god and with like minded folks namely demons. Hell was created for the bad angels
Not man. It is satans plan to deprive human souls of god and keep them in hell for eternity as a type of booty.

If hell is so bad the person you should blame is satan.

Lastly though, we are debating things we do not fully understand and cannot fully understand with our fallen human intellect.

I think jesus says it best when comparing hell to Gehenna, the trash dump Outside of the holy city.

Jesus came to give us a provided for expected death. This was our cleansing from sin by his blood. Human and demonic agency has striven to deprive souls of this great blessing so as to make the sacrifice of the only son of god moot.

God will step in soon and rid our world of these heaven depriving agencies and re create the earth to a pre fall state.

Isn’t it interesting that we have a free will and can conjure up our own ideas about what to believe. That way we don’t have to listen to Jesus and His Church. Good luck!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[dronald]

Isn’t it interesting that we have a free will and can conjure up our own ideas about what to believe. That way we don’t have to listen to Jesus and His Church. Good luck!! God Bless, Memaw

That’s the problem when the Church changes with the times but never makes a solid stance on much!

Literal hell torment for eternity/annihilationism? Who cares! I believe what fits my morals, not what the Bible says, because the Church never anathemized this one.

Non Baptized infants go to Heaven/Hell/Who knows? Doesn’t matter; I’ll quote a Church Father who thought one way.

 

[Memaw]

That’s the problem when the Church changes with the times but never makes a solid stance on much!

Literal hell torment for eternity/annihilationism? Who cares! I believe what fits my morals, not what the Bible says, because the Church never anathemized this one.

Non Baptized infants go to Heaven/Hell/Who knows? Doesn’t matter; I’ll quote a Church Father who thought one way.

Like I said, we can believe any ole thing we want if we don’t follow Christ’s Church. God Bless, Memaw

 

[BlueKnight]

Like I said, we can believe any ole thing we want if we don’t follow Christ’s Church. God Bless, Memaw

Memaw,

Outer darkness is a term used by jesus in Mathew 22.

There are various descriptions of hell and different names for it from the bible which suggests different locations or types of torment.

Peace to you,

Bk

 

[Sarcelle]

Isn’t it interesting that we have a free will and can conjure up our own ideas about what to believe. That way we don’t have to listen to Jesus and His Church. Good luck!! God Bless, Memaw

Indeed.

I am praying the rosary and divine mercy chaplet without fail for the graces of mercy and repentance.

I especially like the prayer of Fatima,

Oh my Jesus
Forgive us our sins
Save us from the fires of hell
And lead all souls into heaven
Especially those in most need of thy mercy