Never ending torture in hell

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That captures the essence of it and is theologically sound.
Thank you
We have to choose between a total possession by god or by hell. Those are your only two choices. Finding out about both as much as possible is re commended before
Judging or choosing.
Amen.Goes all the way back to genesis. You are either a child of the Promise/Eve (as given to and held by Eve) or a child of the serpent. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your (serpent) offspring and her (Eve) offspring;” Gen 3:15…Only two kinds of offspring.
It is also interesting to read what the saints have to say about hell, pergatory, and heaven.
yes.
Something that is often overlooked however is that there are also degrees or levels of hell, pergatory, and heaven.
Yes and no.In heaven there are different rewards, even function but not sure about level. Like there are not different levels of being an American citizen.
Please pray for me to be worthy of heaven, and of the best place I can achieve through gods grace, mercy, and providence.
Well for sure be in Christ first and we are worthy. After that, yes pray we fulfill all the works He planned for us since the foundation of the universe.

Blessings
 
What the Church teaches is that hell exits and that is is eternal.

We simply have no way of determining the “physics” of hell.

But the fire is surely metaphorical – how can fire, which is altogether physical, affect the spiritual?

Hell is self exclusion. God confirms our decision to be excluded from a life of love.

Now the following is my personal opinion. Because God is loving and humans are weak and ignorant, I believe that the vast majority of things we see as mortal sins or grave are greatly hindered by our ignorance and lack of will. I think there is definitely a purifying “fire” or state after death that will at last let us see our error and fully embrace God and be prepared for Heaven. Only the ones who have gone through life definitely and freely excluding themselves from a life of love will go to hell.
 
1 Is it really about keeping score?
Well the unrighteuos will be judged according to their works. Why bother with all of that because after all you go to hell for not having your name in the book of life ? But you also judge their works to see why they are not written in book of life perhaps (refused the gospel) but mostly to meet out justice according to the depth of the depravity. Our courts today are a reflection of this. All speeders do not get the same penalty.it depends on how many tickets before and how fast you were going. Your best way thru this is to say lost souls suffer accordingly before their final extinguishing. So one soul might be killed instantly and the other a slower death , because he had more sins.
Isn’t eternal death enough of a punishment for anyone or kills one or millions?
No. That would be a blessing for some. Not facing reality is preferrable to some part of human nature.
Do you equate eternal torture in fire as more humane than death.
Have I used the word “fire”. No. Is it actual fire. I do not think so. Is it torment ? I am told it is, and have partially experienced that anguish here while on earth. Ever had regret anguish over what you are or what you have done ?
Even we humans know enough to put down a rabid animal and not torture it in anger.
Poor relation to what is human depravity and the dignity and essence of man
  1. Again, eternal torture (or torment is the same thing when fire is taken literally), would lessen the dignity of both the tortured and the torturer.
It has been explained to just what hell is by others and you have acknowledged the rightness of their explanation or at least partially have. Hell is separation from the goodness of God and we torment ourselves. Do we really think we are ok, sane by ourselves ? Do we not say , “there go I but by the grace of God” ? Do we really mean that ? God’s grace keeps us from tormenting ourselves. On earth we at least have the sunshine , or a cool breeze or refreshing water or a loving touch, for the unrighteous and the righteous. These graces innoculate the soul/spirit dead in sin. Hell is an invitation to be still from all those good things and face the sin. So there are degrees of separation from God, hell being the ultimate where you are separated from His goodness and left with justice and ourselves.

Why do we just not say God is sadist because of what we see happening all around us ? It is the same rationale you use for hell ? I mean there is a real down payment or experience of hell here on earth, now. How could God allow such atrocities ? How could He allow us to become as rabid animals?
My whole issue with how we define hell is centered on using symbolic language literally that blasts the whole meaning out of proportion.
Well it seems you have two issues, what you just state about hell terminology and the issue of soul/spirit annihilation. Two different issues though related.

Good topic you bring up and indeed you have a rationale view,but kindly disagree.

Blessings
 
Um, you should look again that this scripture, I believe is in Revelation. The intent of this torment is for the beast and the false prophet or that old serpent called the devil and his angels. This was not intended for man. Revelation makes a distinction here.
How is there a distinction between the ‘lake of fire" in vs 10 and the "lake of fire’’ in verse 14 ch 20. other than two groups of entrants. ? And I would say the two groups are related. As per Genesis 3:15 Satan has his children, his “offspring”, who it seems will follow him to the end, right into the lake of fire .
 
Agreed, but do we follow God because we are afraid of hell of because we tasted the goodness of Christ and naturally want to give up all and follow Him?
Just after getting saved/converted I read something by C. Finney. He kind of said if you got saved to get out of hell, you are probably not saved. Yikes, I was in trouble again ! Maybe I was not saved. Only made me trust totally in Christ for sure. As you suggest the scriptures suggest it is His goodness that draws us, compels us. We get saved because that is what He wants for us. That is not to negate the drawing nature of proper fear, at the beginning, also.

Blessings CL
 
  1. Is it really about keeping score? Isn’t eternal death enough of a punishment for anyone or kills one or millions? Do you equate eternal torture in fire as more humane than death. Even we humans know enough to put down a rabid animal and not torture it in anger.
I’ve done a lot of reading from the lives of many Saints, especially those that included their interpretations or visions of Hell, because I had a personal experience that prompted my interest in the subject. The general consensus is that Hell is not a pretty picture.

How do you define eternal death? IMHO, eternal death is the exact opposite of eternal life. So, we have to look at the characteristics of eternal life, first. Then, we should apply the opposite characteristics to eternal death. Human beings are made up of both physical and spiritual substance (body and soul). That’s what makes us completely different from animals. God created us with souls so we could be with Him, forever. Since our souls are spirits, they are immortal, just like angels. Souls cannot die or cease to exist, because God will never completely destroy what He loves.

When Lucifer and some of the other angels became jealous of God’s love for man (who they knew were far inferior to them), they chose to defy Him. But, even in His anger, God couldn’t bring Himself to utterly destroy them, because He still loved them. He also knew they could no longer stay with Him in Heaven, because of their defiance, and they didn’t want to stay with Him, any more than He wanted them to stay in Heaven. That’s why He created Hell as a place for them to still exist, but be totally separated from Him. The angels who chose to go there, did so by their own free will (the same way we do). They knew exactly what it would be like to be without God’s love and mercy. They knew that anything that existed apart from God’s love, would become twisted and take on the exact opposite characteristics than He originally created in them.

So, Hell is the complete opposite of Heaven, and everything that goes there is the reverse of what it would be in Heaven. Whatever God created to be extremely beautiful in Heaven, becomes hideously ugly in Hell. Eternal light becomes endless darkness. Whatever He created in the fullness of His love, becomes filled with its own, selfish, animosity and hate. Whatever He created to be blissfully happy, is immediately filled with despair, and becomes miserably unhappy. Whatever He created to be free from all pain and suffering, now suffers from its own continuous pain and torment, that comes from the guilt of knowing that they brought it all on themselves, by turning away from God.

The existence of fire in Hell is something you seem to want to completely dismiss as being impossible. However, it is also one of the things that is the product of Heavenly things being reversed. The throne of God is often referred to in terms of fire. God appeared to Moses in a burning bush that was not consumed by the flames, and in the fire on the holy mountain. Elias was “taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses”. The love of God is a holy fire, that kindles our hearts with the love of God and our neighbor. But, the fire of Hell is the unholy fire of seething hatred, that consumes all evil creatures in Hell, forever.

All of this negativity of existence in Hell, is the direct result of it being totally separated from the fullness of God’s love, which is the sole cause of all happiness and joy. Without God, everything becomes painful, hollow and completely devoid of any and all comfort.
  1. Again, eternal torture (or torment is the same thing when fire is taken literally), would lessen the dignity of both the tortured and the torturer.
The tortures of Hell are not perpetrated by God. The ones that torture others in Hell, are more than likely the ones that did the same kinds of things in their previous existence. Satan, the demons, and all the human souls that go there, torture each other. They constantly accuse and taunt others about the evil sins that they’ve committed, even though they did many of the same things. It’s like a sadistic convention for bullies, where everyone is a bully, as well as being the victim of all the other bullies. They all blame each other for their own misery, even though they know they brought it all on, themselves. They also take great pleasure in making everyone else miserable, which always comes right back on them from someone else. It’s a vicious circle of mutual hate.
My whole issue with how we define hell is centered on using symbolic language literally that blasts the whole meaning out of proportion.
It’s impossible to over emphasize the miseries of Hell. There’s a very good reason for Hell to be mentioned so many times in the Bible. It’s not a place that any good person would ever want to go, so it’s a good thing to be reminded about what it might be like. It’s not a picnic or a walk in the park. It’s Hell!
 
Sister Josefa Menendez’s Description of Hell
excerpt:
"Tonight I was transported to a place where all was obscure. . . Around me were seven or eight people; I could see them only by the reflections of the fire. They were seated and were talking together. One said: ‘We’ll have to be very careful not to be found out, for we might easily be discovered.’

"The devil answered: ‘Insinuate yourselves by inducing carelessness in them. . . but keep in the background, so that you are not found out. . . by degrees they will become callous, and you will be able to incline them to evil. Tempt these others to ambition, to self-interest, to acquiring wealth without working, whether it be lawful or not. Excite some to sensuality and love of pleasure. Let vice blind them. . . As to the remainder. . . get in through the heart . . . you know the inclinations of their hearts. . . make them love. . . love passionately. . . work thoroughly. . . take no rest . . . have no pity. Let them cram themselves with food! It will make it all the easier for us. . . Let them get on with their banqueting. Love of pleasure is the door through which you will reach them . . .’ " (February 3, 1923).

“Tonight,” wrote Josefa, "I did not go down into Hell, but was transported to a place where all was obscure, but in the center was a red smoldering fire. They had laid me flat and so bound me that I could not make the slightest movement. Around me were seven or eight people; their black bodies were unclothed, and I could see them only by the reflections of the fire. They were seated and were talking together.

christtotheworld.blogspot.com/2010/04/sister-josefa-menendezs-description-of.html
 
Mat.10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” This scripture is used by some to show hell is not eternal but extinguishes existence. But the Pulpit commentary says this on the word “destroy”, "To* destroy* (ἀπολέσαι). The class of words to which this belongs denotes “utter and hopeless ruin; but they convey no idea whether the ruined object ceases to exist or continues a worthless existence” (Professor Agar Beet, in Expositor, IV. 1:28). Professor Marshall, in Expositor, IV. 3:283, thinks Luke’s variant, “to cast,” indicates that our Lord originally used an Aramaic word that properly meant “to set on fire.” Both soul and body in hell (Matthew 5:22, note). Luke 12:25, “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.” This then does not contradict Gehenna , where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Incidentally fire gives off a lot of light , and God is light.
 
AMEN, we are a lot wiser to trust the Church than our “own opinion.” Only the 3erd Secret was not to be told right away. Not to be released until after 1960. It was up to the Pope when. And there were things that Jesus told the Apostles not to tell. God Bless, Memaw
The problem I have with private revelations that affect the whole world and not just the one revealed to is that they are always “secret.” There is nothing earthshaking is this:

fatima.org/essentials/facts/secret.asp

…that couldn’t have been made know prior to 1960. In fact, it might have helped had it been made known prior to 1960, and it should be noted that Our Lady did not set any date, Lucia did.

I do believe God reveals things to people privately, however Revelation itself was closed with God’s revelation of himself in Christ. There will be no more revelations until Christ comes again. This does not, as I said, rule out private revelations of a highly personal nature to individuals for various reasons.

St. John Paul II believed in the revelations of Fatima, and because he was our Holy Father and so very much more learned than I am, I accept that Our Lady did, in fact, appear there. I just don’t understand all the secrecy. If she appears to help the world get back on the right track, the world needs to know about it. And if these revelations are true, then hell, is, indeed, a place of fire and flame and eternal torment.
 
Well the unrighteuos will be judged according to their works. Why bother with all of that because after all you go to hell for not having your name in the book of life ? But you also judge their works to see why they are not written in book of life perhaps (refused the gospel) but mostly to meet out justice according to the depth of the depravity. Our courts today are a reflection of this. All speeders do not get the same penalty.it depends on how many tickets before and how fast you were going. Your best way thru this is to say lost souls suffer accordingly before their final extinguishing. So one soul might be killed instantly and the other a slower death , because he had more sins. No. That would be a blessing for some. Not facing reality is preferrable to some part of human nature. Have I used the word “fire”. No. Is it actual fire. I do not think so. Is it torment ? I am told it is, and have partially experienced that anguish here while on earth. Ever had regret anguish over what you are or what you have done ? Poor relation to what is human depravity and the dignity and essence of man
It has been explained to just what hell is by others and you have acknowledged the rightness of their explanation or at least partially have. Hell is separation from the goodness of God and we torment ourselves. Do we really think we are ok, sane by ourselves ? Do we not say , “there go I but by the grace of God” ? Do we really mean that ? God’s grace keeps us from tormenting ourselves. On earth we at least have the sunshine , or a cool breeze or refreshing water or a loving touch, for the unrighteous and the righteous. These graces innoculate the soul/spirit dead in sin. Hell is an invitation to be still from all those good things and face the sin. So there are degrees of separation from God, hell being the ultimate where you are separated from His goodness and left with justice and ourselves.

Why do we just not say God is sadist because of what we see happening all around us ? It is the same rationale you use for hell ? I mean there is a real down payment or experience of hell here on earth, now. How could God allow such atrocities ? How could He allow us to become as rabid animals?

Well it seems you have two issues, what you just state about hell terminology and the issue of soul/spirit annihilation. Two different issues though related.

Good topic you bring up and indeed you have a rationale view,but kindly disagree.

Blessings
Good explanations and something to think about. Thanks!
 
What exactly does “seperation” mean? I assume you do not mean physical distance.
It means absence from or of God. Physical distance is somewhat of an unknown when speaking about the afterlife because in our human experience we have little information on the dimensions of life after death.
 
Okay, so I’m going to break down your beliefs as best as possible based on everything we’ve said so far.

So apparently if this torment is not for man, then the false prophet is not a man. But Paul says

2 thess 3: Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

So perhaps this “man” is a different man? Or a symbolic man, and not a man at all? Or perhaps you’re separating this man and his “eternal torture” as you say from other men? Are you saying that God will give him a special soul that can last extra long in the lake of fire? The same lake of fire that all sinners are thrown into according to the Bible.

Remember, the passage here is Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was **thrown into the lake of fire **and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Contrast with just 5 passages down:

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Are you here saying these are two different lakes of fire? Or the false prophet has a special soul that can last eternity in the lake of fire? Or are you saying “lake of fire” is a symbol for something else, and “tormented day and night forever and ever” really means eternal destruction or something? Are you sure you’re not just reading what you want it to say because you can’t believe that it’s moral for God to do this?

Then what is “tormented forever and ever”? You don’t believe a nation can be thrown into a lake of fire? The whole point of Revelation is to show there will be many who reject and hate God in the end.

And again, Jesus says similar things: Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. ’

So I suppose the fire is quenched? Please explain.
I don’t disagree with scripture when it says the fire is not quenched. It is clear that the fire is eternal. However the references in scripture appear to have ambiguous meanings. Do we assume that the person thrown in the fire is also eternal or is it just the fire? Is it a literal fire or something like fire, where the term fire is used for something outside of our understanding of space and time that is closest to what we as mere humans can understand. How can there be fire in hell when it is also described as the blackest darkness? What about consuming of the bodies in hell? Scripture does not directly say that bodies are not consumed by the fire but uses imagery can can suggest other things like “the worm dieth not” which can also be a metaphor for complete death.
 
I don’t disagree with scripture when it says the fire is not quenched. It is clear that the fire is eternal. However the references in scripture appear to have ambiguous meanings. Do we assume that the person thrown in the fire is also eternal or is it just the fire? Is it a literal fire or something like fire, where the term fire is used for something outside of our understanding of space and time that is closest to what we as mere humans can understand. How can there be fire in hell when it is also described as the blackest darkness? What about consuming of the bodies in hell? Scripture does not directly say that bodies are not consumed by the fire but uses imagery can can suggest other things like “the worm dieth not” which can also be a metaphor for complete death.
Well yes, this I can certainly agree with.

We don’t know exactly what type of fire, or even what fire is. But whatever it is, Scripture seems clear that it is eternal and it’s tormenting. I can only assume that if it’s not a literal fire (and I too question if it is) it is far worse than an eternal burning in a lake of fire.

Hell is a place for sin, and those who go down go with their sin. And if we are to believe Scripture, it’s eternal.
 
Isn’t it interesting that we have a free will and can conjure up our own ideas about what to believe. That way we don’t have to listen to Jesus and His Church. Good luck!! God Bless, Memaw
👍 We are prone to ask… ‘what would Jesus say/do?’ which has a tendency to be what we think Jesus would say/do. Maybe more of…‘what did Jesus say/do?’

That and heeding the words of the Holy Father…

Without the Church and her guidance, our relationship with Christ would be at the mercy of our imagination, our interpretations, our moods, - Pope Francis
 
The problem I have with private revelations that affect the whole world and not just the one revealed to is that they are always “secret.” There is nothing earthshaking is this:

fatima.org/essentials/facts/secret.asp

…that couldn’t have been made know prior to 1960. In fact, it might have helped had it been made known prior to 1960, and it should be noted that Our Lady did not set any date, Lucia did.

I do believe God reveals things to people privately, however Revelation itself was closed with God’s revelation of himself in Christ. There will be no more revelations until Christ comes again. This does not, as I said, rule out private revelations of a highly personal nature to individuals for various reasons.

St. John Paul II believed in the revelations of Fatima, and because he was our Holy Father and so very much more learned than I am, I accept that Our Lady did, in fact, appear there. I just don’t understand all the secrecy. If she appears to help the world get back on the right track, the world needs to know about it. And if these revelations are true, then hell, is, indeed, a place of fire and flame and eternal torment.
Hi Lily Bernans, did you know that one of the biggest thing in the Catholic Church is the rosary, and it is 100% private revelation from the Virgin Mary to St. Dominic ?
 
Yes, and I also know we’re never required to pray the rosary. No one in my parish seems to pray the rosary any more. I see nothing wrong in it. It’s a devotion that encourages meditation on the life of Christ. That’s a good thing. I don’t pray it myself because I find I don’t need it for contemplation.

What are you so upset about? You must not have read all my posts. I said I find it difficult to believe in private revelations that are so secret, but that I did believe Our Lady appeared at Fatima. I just don’t understand why Lucia set a date of 1960 when Our Lady set no date (Lucia, herself, said this).

Did you know that?
 
Memaw,

Outer darkness is a term used by jesus in Mathew 22.

There are various descriptions of hell and different names for it from the bible which suggests different locations or types of torment.

Peace to you,

Bk
The Catholic Church does not teach different locations of Hell but each will suffer the results of their sins. and those in Heaven will receive the Grace for their love and repentance. God Bless, Memaw
 
Yes, and I also know we’re never required to pray the rosary. No one in my parish seems to pray the rosary any more. I see nothing wrong in it. It’s a devotion that encourages meditation on the life of Christ. That’s a good thing. I don’t pray it myself because I find I don’t need it for contemplation.

What are you so upset about? You must not have read all my posts. I said I find it difficult to believe in private revelations that are so secret, but that I did believe Our Lady appeared at Fatima. I just don’t understand why Lucia set a date of 1960 when Our Lady set no date (Lucia, herself, said this).

Did you know that?
Lucia did not say in 1960, she said not till AFTER 1960. God Bless, Memaw
 
Yes, and I also know we’re never required to pray the rosary. No one in my parish seems to pray the rosary any more. I see nothing wrong in it. It’s a devotion that encourages meditation on the life of Christ. That’s a good thing. I don’t pray it myself because I find I don’t need it for contemplation.

What are you so upset about? You must not have read all my posts. I said I find it difficult to believe in private revelations that are so secret, but that I did believe Our Lady appeared at Fatima. I just don’t understand why Lucia set a date of 1960 when Our Lady set no date (Lucia, herself, said this).

Did you know that?
Well you kinda implied that the Fatima children were imagining their visions of hell.
 
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