Never ending torture in hell

[Techno2000]

The people who had those experiences were not dead, and usually under the influence of anesthesia and/or various drugs.

There are thousands of NDE stories from people who were no way near a Hospital at the time.

nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

 

[Telstar]

One afternoon I took nap, during this sleep I woke up, but was still stuck in my sleep body and couldn’t move. The reason I woke up (still paralyzed in my body) was because I sensed something dropping from the ceiling, it was a transparent gray foot and ankle and it give off a electrical hum.The next thing this foot did was try to smash my head into my pillow, I Could feel my hair being moved around and it was somewhat painful, I started saying all the prayers I knew until this thing lifted off of me and I woke up for real.

That could have just been a bad dream, but it was possibly a bit more than that. I certainly wouldn’t have a clue what it might have meant. You may have a much better understanding of it, in the context of what was going on in your life at the time. I’m sure it was not a very pleasant experience, any more than mine was. Sometimes, God uses our imagination to show us things in dreams that He thinks we need to understand better. Of course, not all dreams are like that. Most are just ‘normal’ fantasies that our mind creates from the day’s events. But, when we have the kind that have a lasting effect on us, I tend to think that God had His hand in creating them in our minds for a reason.

 

[Telstar]

Remember a NDE is a “near death” experience. It is not an experience of death. Dead people do not come back to life. (I know Jesus brought some back to life, but we meet the risen Christ in the Holy Eucharist today.) The people who had those experiences were not dead, and usually under the influence of anesthesia and/or various drugs. Peter Kreeft, if you are familiar with his writings, says we cannot put stock in NDEs.

My Dad had a NDE. He suffered what they used to call a major “coronary” heart attack in 1959 (I was 6 or 7 at the time). While the doctors were working on him, his heart stopped beating for a little over 4 minutes. Our own family doctor was one of them. My mother told me that he refused to give up, even after the other doctors were all ready to pronounce him dead. In those days, they didn’t have defibrillators to shock the heart, like they do now. So, he kept doing a very crude form of CPR, which was basically to keep on pushing and pounding on his chest, to try and kick-start the heart. All the while, he also kept screaming at him. He said stuff like he couldn’t die now, because he had a wife and little kids at home that needed him. I guess he hoped my Dad would hear him and fight a little harder. Finally, just as the doctor was about to cut open my Dad’s chest to do ‘open heart massage’ as a last resort, his heart finally started beating, again.

After it was all over, my Dad told my Mom about what had happened to him when his heart stopped beating. He didn’t tell too many people about all the details, but my mother told me it had a huge effect on him. He used to get very emotional about it, whenever it was mentioned. I don’t remember ever seeing my Dad cry very often, but whenever he was reminded of it, tears would well up in his eyes. All I know about it, is that he saw the tunnel and beautiful light that many other people talk about. He also saw everything that happened in his whole life, which is also typical in a NDE. Then, he said he saw Jesus and the Blessed Mother, who spoke to him. I don’t know if he ever told anyone everything that they said to him, but he did tell some of it to my mother. But, he made her promise him that she would never tell anyone what he told her, so she never did. I tried to get her to tell me about it after he died, but she still wouldn’t tell me.

However, Kreeft does write about people who have had contact with “another world” while perfectly healthy. He puts much more stock in those experiences. I, too, have had those experiences, but mine have always been good ones.

I’ve also had some amazing experiences that were much more enjoyable than the one I described. I definitely prefer them to the negative ones. But, at that point in my life I think God showed me what I really needed to see at the time. I think I really did need to be scared straight, because I was getting ‘way too big for my britches’, as my Mom or Dad would say to me whenever I thought I knew it all.

I have almost no fear of hell. I’m far from perfect, but I do love Christ beyond measure, and I trust he will take me to heaven (I don’t rule out purgatory, though, and I’m working on trying to shorten my time there.)

I’m with you all the way on this part, for sure.

 

[Telstar]

I believe it was something special and life changing. I’ve had experiences with two who have died, one in particular, but they were good experiences. Unless a person has had a religious experience like that, I don’t think they can understand the reality of it. It’s as real as the world outside my window.

Exactly. I feel a bit sorry for anyone that’s never had that kind of an experience, or that had one but didn’t really recognize what it was at the time.

Something struck me a bit funny in what you just said. You mentioned that such experiences are as real as the world outside your window. The beginning of my dream started with me standing in front of what seemed to be either an open window, or an open doorway, looking out on someone’s back yard.

 

[CLearthinking04]

olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtml

Thank You for the reference but it isn’t exactly an authoritative piece of documentation. Who wrote it? When? I am guessing the middle ages somewhere?

 

[CLearthinking04]

OK. So, you do believe that Hell is real, and the torment is real. But, you’re saying that God should never have told anyone that Hell was full of fire that would cause them some kind of pain, forever, because you think it’s unethical for Him to scare people like that? Seriously? Do you think He should have just told us a fairy tale? Maybe He could have told one about how people might be able to toast marshmallows around the big campfire that’s in Hell, instead? Do you think that would have the right effect, though? I tend to doubt it would have been a sufficiently effective deterrent against sin, unless you really hate toasting marshmallows around a campfire. Maybe I just have a poor perception of which portrayal of Hell would create a better deterrent against sin, in the mind of the person that hears it.

Who are you to decide whether or not that man would have gone to hell at all? Did he tell you that he absolutely hated God, or are you just judging him by how you think he lived his life? Do you know for sure what he really felt about God in the depths of his heart? God certainly knows whether or not he was truly sorry for his sins, but you can’t. So, why would you assume he’s in hell? You know what happens when we assume, don’t you? Tony Randall explained it very well in the Odd Couple. You can see it for yourself on youtube.

People that truly love God and others don’t end up in hell. It’s the ones that are filled with greed, jealousy, and hate that go there, because they don’t know anything about love. They don’t care about anyone but themselves.

Maybe you should just ask Jesus why He talked so much about the fires of Hell, and all the evil people that go there. Maybe He can explain it to you, or even show you what it’s really like. I wouldn’t recommend it though. You probably wouldn’t like what you might see. More than likely it would just scare the Hell out of you. Been there, done that… not fun.

Wow, Lori, I have to say your reply was certainly entertaining (in a nice way), especially that part about the odd couple (funny) and suggesting that I personally ask the Lord to experience hell myself, (not so funny). You seemed to have missed my point though. To break it down to more direct. There are those who teach burning flames while a careful survey of all NT scriptural references point to fire being a metaphor for something else that is not pleasant but still eternal. My position is that since the scriptures point to an ethical view of hell why should we accept a literal flaming torture chamber that suggests a level of brutality that God himself teaches us by way of the totality of scripture and in Church teaching is morally wrong. It would be like saying it is ok to punish prisoners by burning them alive as long as the authorities light the flame. Torture is morally wrong. People rejecting God and winding up either non-existent through the lake of fire and second death (or just separate from God and paradise) as described in the Bible is their own choice and not an intrinsically immoral act by God.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Nope, it wasn’t a NDE. It was something that I experienced many years ago, that I will never forget. Some people might not think it was anything special, but it was to me. It changed my life. When I was in my late teens/very early twenties, I started drifting a bit too far away from the Church. I was always interested in spiritual things, so I dabbled in some spiritual stuff that I should never have dabbled in. My sister-in-law (who the family referred to as ‘saint __’), was gently trying to show me where I was going wrong, but I was always rather pigheaded (tête de pioche).

I really wanted to believe her, so one night I decided to pray for a “sign”, to let me know if what she was telling me was true. In hindsight, that was probably not my best idea. Later that night, I had a very long vivid dream that had several different parts. The last part of it may have just been a vision of the souls in Purgatory, or it might have been Hell. I’m not really sure. All I know is there were transparent people floating all around me with visible expressions of pain on their faces, all suspended in total blackness. The only reason I could see them was because they all glowed an eerie shade of orange, like hot coals. The only other thing I could see were the tongues of fire that were flickering everywhere.

The scariest part of all was that when I finally managed to wake myself up, I looked around the room and could still see the flames, all around me. I woke up my husband with all my sobbing, so I got up and went out to the kitchen so he could sleep. But, no matter where I went around the house, I couldn’t get away from the flames. They were everywhere. Whether my eyes were open or shut, it didn’t matter. Turning on the lights didn’t help much, either.

The whole time I just kept praying and begging the Blessed Mother to please, make it go away. I finally ended up going back to bed because I was so exhausted. It slowly began to fade as I was laying there, but never actually went away completely until I finally fell back to sleep. But, that’s only part of it, along with some of it’s after effects. It was a very long night and not a pleasant experience, to say the least. :bigyikes:

OK now I know why you suggested that maybe I should ask the Lord to experience hell but you don’t recommend it. I thought you were joking. I certainly respect your vision.

 

[benhur]

Good explanations and something to think about. Thanks!

No thank you:tiphat:

 

[benhur]

I thought" the worm dieth not" in literal Gehenna is because garbage was continually added for fuel for the fire and food for the worm. In spiritual hell, there is no continual adding of garbage as in the Gehenna city dump, therefore I think it emphasizes the burning bush phenomenom, where the fuel (body/sou/spiritl) does not disintegrate, and the worm has something to constantly feed upon. Anther words in the day of judgement , all is cast into hell that ever will be cast into it.

 

[benhur]

People rejecting God and winding up either non-existent through the lake of fire and second death (or just separate from God and paradise) as described in the Bible is their own choice and not an intrinsically immoral act by God.

Cl

That seems quite either or, extinguished or just separate from God / paradise. Extinguished ok, because for sure there is no more suffering and certainly no eternal "torture’’ as you put it. But, have we not said the latter separation is the torment, that you say would not be an immoral act by God.

I have thought about folks who have had near death experiences. Many claim to be drawn thru a tunnel to a light, giving the feeling of euphoria, bliss, peace, beauty etc… Many come back to life before reaching that 'light" and I would say have not been judged yet. But the point is what if that light is God , and you do sit in front of Him and see Him in all His glory and feel His peace and love etc., and then He says those dreadful words, "Depart from Me. I do not know you " and you are cast in outer darkness, the exact opposite of God, with the exact opposite of feelings (no peace, love , etc). See the gnashing of teeth, the bitterness and regret and pure anguish. So far no fire either, and a extinguishing one would be welcome.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

There are thousands of NDE stories from people who were no way near a Hospital at the time.

nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

It doesn’t matter. They are still NEAR death experiences, not experiences of death. The dead to not return to life. No one really knows for sure that NDE are. I don’t know. It could be that people have some contact with God, angels, etc. during a NDE. It’s just not a true death experience or the person would still be dead.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Exactly. I feel a bit sorry for anyone that’s never had that kind of an experience, or that had one but didn’t really recognize what it was at the time.

Something struck me a bit funny in what you just said. You mentioned that such experiences are as real as the world outside your window. The beginning of my dream started with me standing in front of what seemed to be either an open window, or an open doorway, looking out on someone’s back yard.

I feel a bit sorry for anyone who hasn’t had an experience like that, too. You know it’s not your imagination. I hadn’t even been thinking of the person who came back to help me. Mine took place when I was wide awake. Someone I had loved deeply who had died about six years prior was in the room with me. Within a few days, my whole life had changed. Church became the focal point of my life, and I immediately transferred from a huge secular college to a small private one and switched my major from English to Theology. Now, sometimes I’ll think to myself, “I wonder if ****** really loved me as much as he said he did?” And the answer I always get is, “I came back for you, didn’t I?” Maybe I was headed the wrong way at the time. I wasn’t doing anything really bad, God was just not the focal point of my life. I have never reverted to my old, lazy ways, though, nor have I ever regretted changing my major from English to Theology.

 

[Protestor]

It means absence from or of God. Physical distance is somewhat of an unknown when speaking about the afterlife because in our human experience we have little information on the dimensions of life after death.

I still have no idea what absence from or of God means.

 

[Techno2000]

It doesn’t matter. They are still NEAR death experiences, not experiences of death. The dead to not return to life. No one really knows for sure that NDE are. I don’t know. It could be that people have some contact with God, angels, etc. during a NDE. It’s just not a true death experience or the person would still be dead.

I think its just call NEAR death because that’s the only way to describe this phenomenon, and going by modern medical standards and equipment these people are 100% Dead.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I think its just call NEAR death because that’s the only way to describe this phenomenon, and going by modern medical standards and equipment these people are 100% Dead.

People who are dead do not come back to life. I don’t think there are degrees of death. One is either dead or alive. I earn my living being a medical writer. Doctors believe people who undergo NDEs have a heartbeat and brain wave activity that is so subtle it cannot be detected by any equipment. Clearly they were still alive.

 

[Reuben_J]

Protester:

I still have no idea what absence from or of God means.

This is not easy to explain and depends on one’s choice of words, some can explain it better, and some may even makes it sound worse.

I will try here in my own words.

God is love and absence from God is an absence of God’s love, a perfect love. Why and what is that?

Some may deny it though I have not met anyone who does but all of us need love and to be loved.

I remember when my child was born, even though she could not speak or laugh, she seemed to recognize my voice and my touch. At an age of one month, when she cried, not necessarily for milk, and when I took her in my arms and cooed her, she seemed to recognize my voice and slowly calmed down.

When I am an old adult, the reassurance of my mother’s love (I lost my father much earlier) even though there’s probably nothing much that she can do, but I recognize her love for me and I am much comforted, a feeling that is hard to describe.

The Bible says God is our hiding place, our fortress and our shield. We are like a deer that yearns for a running stream, as our souls yearn for God. This is beautiful if we study animal’s behavior and why the deer does so.

The saints, like Augustine, said, “My soul shall not rest until I rest in you, O God”.

In other word, our peace, our assurance and our ultimate needs come from the love of God. Take God away, we will not only be nothing, but a suffering wretched piece of human flesh with an emptiness and a longing immeasurable.

Ever wonder why we say Rest in Peace when someone dies? There is no peace in hell and our souls do not rest.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[Ion]

Jesus compared the Hell with Gehenna (place where dead bodies burned) “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” In Revelation 20:10
The devil the beast and their false profet will end up in a lake of fire and sulphur where they will be tormented forever and ever…
If it is real fire and sulphur or only feels like fire and sulphur makes no difference.

 

[laircy]

Well said!! THank You

Why do you think literal flames are worse than separation from God? Why is the latter the more “ethical”-feeling option? You seem to attribute more goodness or desirability to separation from God rather than literal flames, but being separated from God is being separated from all goodness, so it is not possible for it to be in any sense better.

 

[Reuben_J]

**

Why do you think literal flames are worse than separation from God? Why is the latter the more “ethical”-feeling option? You seem to attribute more goodness or desirability to separation from God rather than literal flames, but being separated from God is being separated from all goodness, so it is not possible for it to be in any sense better.

Can a soul being spirit feel physical pain? What type of pain that souls experience? Not that pain is absence in afterlife, but do our souls feel the pain like our human bodies do? Will we retain the five senses of the body - sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch or will it be different kinds of senses which are more profound that are only attributed to the souls?

Our theology of afterlife is quite different from, say, Islam, that believe souls can enjoy food and sex in heaven and thus by implication can literally feel the pain of being burnt in the fire of hell.

We know there is pain in hell and one pain that is mentioned is the absence of God since our souls need Him.

 

[ericc]

I never said hell is not for real and that the torment is not real. What I am saying is that using the image of fire as literal torture chamber for all eternity is an intrinsically unethical act of cosmic overkill. Consider this scenario which I witnessed the human side of these events; There was once a man who lived a licentious life. When he grew old he became ill. His sister, a devout Catholic cared for him, took him in because he had no money or no-where to stay. She nursed him on his death bed and the great love of Christ shone through her eyes to him as he looked up at her afraid of dying but at that moment knew he was loved. Then he passed away. The scene was very moving. I have personally taken care of people when they were very sick and it actually changed the way I feel about humanity and how vulnerable and in need of love we all are. Jesus fulfills that love in the most perfect way.

So tell me, after all that I witnessed in these events, am I supposed to believe that the man who passed away will now and forever be tortured by literal flames for all eternity? The Jesus and great God that taught me love now says that these people will be treated worse than the people that suffered in the holocaust? The God who says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you now does the complete opposite?

If that’s the case then why bother loving anyone, I mean what’s the point of it all if they are only going to get tortured for ever and ever.

There is something wrong with the interpretation that fire is a literal fire. And oh yes I am aware that eternal separation is also bad. I can only accept by faith that somehow God has it all under control and what ever he decides to do to handle a necessary part of reality, (dealing with people who rejected Him), he will do in the most ethical way. I just can’t see a never ending firey torture chamber as part of his plan. The flames must be a metaphor is both scripture and the message from Fatima.

But why stay fixated on Hell? As long as one know it is an unpleasant place, if one ended there, pleading ignorance can not be used as an excuse. I have yet to hear any surprise that hell is an unpleasant “place” or “state of existence”. If God prepared a place for evildoers, I let him see fit how he wants to furnish the place. Not my call or yours. Those who had an inkling what it is like has generously gave us a heads up.

Whether you feel sorry for Satan, demons, and their followers, well, it is your sensitivitiy to those in suffering, whether they deserved it or not. I try not to think about those there, perhaps there are those that I may even know of. Personally, I try not to waste time on things I can not control. Such as how many degrees of heat would be there, how many degrees of awfulness in that place. We should stay focus on our salvation and those around us. Wishing things to be different in hell really serves no value. You don’t know how God’s justice and mercy balance out. Even if you use a human way of sensing what is right or wrong about the way God dispenses his Justice, you have no way of gauging your own standard. Do you doubt God’s justice? After all we are a defective people, what do we know about divine justice/mercy.

You gave touching stories of sick people who were bad. But there is nothing in there that prevents them from repenting their evil ways. The carer takes care of all sorts of people, good and bad. All those people that Mother Teresa’s organizations took care off, some could be real nasty people. Should they stop caring for those people? It changes nothing about the fate of their souls. Some don’t believe in the Christian God. Some many gods. And some worship devils or none at all. There is nothing to stop anyone from repenting other than themselves. For many in those type of hopeless situations, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose by accepting God. Of course there are those who think they can redo this cycle over again through reincarnation. But again, one is never sure that reincarnation wasn’t just a gimmick by you-know-who to fool people into thinking that there is a reset button somewhere in their souls. That they can try and try again until they succeed. But if they enjoyed sinful life so much, there is nothing to entice them to move them towards the less pleasurable zone. Know of anyone who is enjoying themselves to the fullest sinfully and claiming they will be good next life?

What is wrong with people painting hell as a place of everlasting torment, whether with real or divine fire? Scriptures made it clear it is a place of everlasting suffering, a lake of fire and brimstone, tormented forever. Details vary as to the type of torments. Try not to second guess its intensity. It will be fair. Since Hell is known to be a place of everlasting torment, why would you discouraged people from talking about truth? Nasty no doubt but still true. At least fear of hell may discouraged people from doing the nastier stuff. I am curious as to why you think we shouldn’t depict hell as such.