Never ending torture in hell

[jsaldar]

Hell is best described by St. Faustina Kowalska in her visions of hell from her diary. I recommend reading this for a better understanding.

 

[Techno2000]

Hell is best described by St. Faustina Kowalska in her visions of hell from her diary. I recommend reading this for a better understanding.

Its been copy and pasted twice in this thread.

 

[Techno2000]

People who are dead do not come back to life. I don’t think there are degrees of death. One is either dead or alive. I earn my living being a medical writer. Doctors believe people who undergo NDEs have a heartbeat and brain wave activity that is so subtle it cannot be detected by any equipment. Clearly they were still alive.

Ok so the Bible is wrong too when it says people came back from the DEAD ?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

**Can a soul being spirit feel physical pain? What type of pain that souls experience? Not that pain is absence in afterlife, but do our souls feel the pain like our human bodies do? Will we retain the five senses of the body - sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch or will it be different kinds of senses which are more profound that are only attributed to the souls?

If you’ve passed your teenage years, surely you’ve felt the pain of loving someone, or at least thought you loved them, who did not love you back. Or maybe you’ve genuinely loved someone and he or she has left you. Multiply that more times than you can even conceive, and that’s the beginning of the pain a soul feels.

If we die prior to the Second Coming, only our soul will be in heaven or hell. However, after the resurrection of all the dead, our soul will be joined to our body once again, and then we will be able to feel physical pain, or, in Heaven, happiness.

 

[Memaw]

I never said hell is not for real and that the torment is not real. What I am saying is that using the image of fire as literal torture chamber for all eternity is an intrinsically unethical act of cosmic overkill. Consider this scenario which I witnessed the human side of these events; There was once a man who lived a licentious life. When he grew old he became ill. His sister, a devout Catholic cared for him, took him in because he had no money or no-where to stay. She nursed him on his death bed and the great love of Christ shone through her eyes to him as he looked up at her afraid of dying but at that moment knew he was loved. Then he passed away. The scene was very moving. I have personally taken care of people when they were very sick and it actually changed the way I feel about humanity and how vulnerable and in need of love we all are. Jesus fulfills that love in the most perfect way.

So tell me, after all that I witnessed in these events, am I supposed to believe that the man who passed away will now and forever be tortured by literal flames for all eternity? The Jesus and great God that taught me love now says that these people will be treated worse than the people that suffered in the holocaust? The God who says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you now does the complete opposite?

If that’s the case then why bother loving anyone, I mean what’s the point of it all if they are only going to get tortured for ever and ever.

There is something wrong with the interpretation that fire is a literal fire. And oh yes I am aware that eternal separation is also bad. I can only accept by faith that somehow God has it all under control and what ever he decides to do to handle a necessary part of reality, (dealing with people who rejected Him), he will do in the most ethical way. I just can’t see a never ending firey torture chamber as part of his plan. The flames must be a metaphor is both scripture and the message from Fatima.

When will we ever learn NOT to try to tell God how to run things. Just read how Jesus Himself described Hell !! It’s not a place anyone should ever want to go. But if a person does end up their it’s their own fault, NOT God’s. Why do we continually blame everything on God, when He has done everything for our salvation, including sending His own Son to die for us and open the Gates of Heaven once again so that we may have the opportunity to go there. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Reuben_J]

If you’ve passed your teenage years, surely you’ve felt the pain of loving someone, or at least thought you loved them, who did not love you back. Or maybe you’ve genuinely loved someone and he or she has left you. Multiply that more times than you can even conceive, and that’s the beginning of the pain a soul feels.

If we die prior to the Second Coming, only our soul will be in heaven or hell. However, after the resurrection of all the dead, our soul will be joined to our body once again, and then we will be able to feel physical pain, or, in Heaven, happiness.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Cl

That seems quite either or, extinguished or just separate from God / paradise. Extinguished ok, because for sure there is no more suffering and certainly no eternal "torture’’ as you put it. But, have we not said the latter separation is the torment, that you say would not be an immoral act by God.

I have thought about folks who have had near death experiences. Many claim to be drawn thru a tunnel to a light, giving the feeling of euphoria, bliss, peace, beauty etc… Many come back to life before reaching that 'light" and I would say have not been judged yet. But the point is what if that light is God , and you do sit in front of Him and see Him in all His glory and feel His peace and love etc., and then He says those dreadful words, "Depart from Me. I do not know you " and you are cast in outer darkness, the exact opposite of God, with the exact opposite of feelings (no peace, love , etc). See the gnashing of teeth, the bitterness and regret and pure anguish. So far no fire either, and a extinguishing one would be welcome.

Many of the scholar work that I reviewed make the same point. Separation from God can be just as bad as burning flames. My point is that mind numbing pain for all eternity is cosmic overkill from a just and ethical God that loves all of his created beings. Given this point a case can then be made for complete annihilation.

 

[CLearthinking04]

I thought" the worm dieth not" in literal Gehenna is because garbage was continually added for fuel for the fire and food for the worm. In spiritual hell, there is no continual adding of garbage as in the Gehenna city dump, therefore I think it emphasizes the burning bush phenomenom, where the fuel (body/sou/spiritl) does not disintegrate, and the worm has something to constantly feed upon. Anther words in the day of judgement , all is cast into hell that ever will be cast into it.

I can see how the symbolism can lend it self to such a conclusion but it is unclear at best and requires the reader to use so much imagination that it would be hard to know for sure. When examined in the light of other scriptures (or the totality of scripture) it appears more like a medieval version of hell. I found that when you separate the process of hell from the description of the location of hell using all NT scriptural references annihilation looks more probable.

 

[CLearthinking04]

I still have no idea what absence from or of God means.

Some scholars believe that hell just means separation from God. In other words the damned exist in a place where they have no way to perceive the light of God and are therefore in total spiritual darkness. The two references below might help.

Pope John Paul II
On July 28, 1999, in his weekly address to approximately 8,500 people, he described Hell as “the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God.” He also gave these statements: “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” “Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person, and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever.” “The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair.”

Billy Graham
“The only thing I could say for sure is that hell means separation from God. We are separated from his light, from his fellowship. That is going to be hell. When it comes to a literal fire, I don’t preach it because I’m not sure about it. When the Scripture uses fire concerning hell, that is possibly an illustration of how terrible it’s going to be - not fire but something worse, a thirst for God that cannot be quenched. (p. 74, bold added)” – Time Magazine 11/15/93“.Could it be that the fire Jesus talked about is an eternal search for God that is never quenched? Is that what it means? That, indeed, would be hell. To be away from God forever, separated from His Presence. (p. 74-75, italics in original)” - The Challenge, Sermons from Madison Square Garden, 1969

 

[CLearthinking04]

Why do you think literal flames are worse than separation from God? Why is the latter the more “ethical”-feeling option? You seem to attribute more goodness or desirability to separation from God rather than literal flames, but being separated from God is being separated from all goodness, so it is not possible for it to be in any sense better.

Actually I don’t. An eternity without God can be just as bad. However, when lining up all NT references to hell and then separating the descriptions into two categories. Those that describe the place of hell and those that describe what happens to a person that goes to hell and the imagery becomes clear. The process of hell is all about the second death, cessation of life. However some scholars and preachers say that this also is unethical because God is denying life to his created beings. I disagree. Of the three choices, torturing for all eternity, separation from God for all eternity or annihilation, annihilation seems to be the most ethical and from what I have seen in the NT has the most support.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Jesus compared the Hell with Gehenna (place where dead bodies burned) “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” In Revelation 20:10
The devil the beast and their false profet will end up in a lake of fire and sulphur where they will be tormented forever and ever…
If it is real fire and sulphur or only feels like fire and sulphur makes no difference.

I would suggest reviewing the totality of scripture and not just one verse out of context. It reveals a different picture.

 

[CLearthinking04]

At least fear of hell may discouraged people from doing the nastier stuff. I am curious as to why you think we shouldn’t depict hell as such.

Take a look around, Christians are under attack from all directions. Young people see this attack from the atheists who are have good arguments in their eyes and what do we Christians do? Tell them that our great creator God is so unloving that if you don’t keep in line you will be burned and tortured forever. This is totally out of sync with the message of the Gospel. We are loosing a generation of young people because of the absurdity of this dark age hellfire mentality where they are rejecting Christianity based on uneducated 10th century teachings. When the totality of NT scriptures are considered there it no support for hellfire because fire is a metaphor. We as Christians need to be on point how we represent the faith because we are loosing the young generation for no reason.

 

[benhur]

Many of the scholar work that I reviewed make the same point. Separation from God can be just as bad as burning flames. My point is that mind numbing pain for all eternity is cosmic overkill from a just and ethical God that loves all of his created beings. Given this point a case can then be made for complete annihilation.

Ok. Certainly is tough, even impossible, for me to fathom also, yet I believe that is what is correct. Maybe we have to not look at it from our time line. Maybe there is no more time (as we know it?) which could also mean “forever”. How else is one day as a thousand ?

 

[benhur]

I can see how the symbolism can lend it self to such a conclusion but it is unclear at best and requires the reader to use so much imagination that it would be hard to know for sure. When examined in the light of other scriptures (or the totality of scripture) it appears more like a medieval version of hell. I found that when you separate the process of hell from the description of the location of hell using all NT scriptural references annihilation looks more probable.

Just to double check that I said it right. I thought Jjesus referred to the literal Gehenna, the city dump, where there was always something to burning and there was always hi heat somewhere (like a mature charcoal,wood fire where underneath the ashes coal/wood is red hot, sometimes even into the next morning, where if you toss something into it, it burns). I also think the people who heard Jesus speak definitely had the image of the dump in their mind.

 

[BlueKnight]

I think that is a major point about hell that people overlook.

That it is basically a toxic waiste dump to protect creation from its contents.

As president for that statement I reference the book of Enoch. And before you go and say “hey that isn’t in the catholic bible” just read your bible and see where Jesus quotes from the book of Enoch.

In any case, there are these bad angels from the Watcher choire that fall and teach man all sorts of bad stuff and have children with human beings leading to the giants.

Supposedly this causes all sorts of problems and eventually these fallen watchers get imprisoned in hell.

Likewise just as Abraham’s bosom was a containement facility for souls, hell seems be a containment for bad angels, which was its original purpose.

Bk

 

[ericc]

Take a look around, Christians are under attack from all directions. Young people see this attack from the atheists who are have good arguments in their eyes and what do we Christians do? Tell them that our great creator God is so unloving that if you don’t keep in line you will be burned and tortured forever. This is totally out of sync with the message of the Gospel. We are loosing a generation of young people because of the absurdity of this dark age hellfire mentality where they are rejecting Christianity based on uneducated 10th century teachings. When the totality of NT scriptures are considered there it no support for hellfire because fire is a metaphor. We as Christians need to be on point how we represent the faith because we are loosing the young generation for no reason.

Is this the real issue for you? Just to make Hell palatable for modern sensitivities? Isn’t truth more important? That is not a recommended direction your should be heading. Because one can find all kinds of reasons to water down the unpleasant truth. Does God need this Public Relations help?

What is next? Crucifixion? Jesus was just taking a 3 day nap from a tree? Or miracles? Naah! No modern people believe in miracles. Therefore we should not teach it. If we can not preserve truth and tell it as it is, then we are guilty of untruth when we gloss over it, cover it up, attribute it to something else.

I am truly surprised at the modernist approach you have taken. I thought you just need scriptural evidence or Church teaching to support the teaching of old fashion hell. But I thought wrong.

 

[CLearthinking04]

I think that is a major point about hell that people overlook.
That it is basically a toxic waste dump to protect creation from its contents…
…hell seems be a containment for bad angels, which was its original purpose.
Bk

Interesting take on it. Considering things in the abstract, a Supreme being would logically have to take the sort of action you speak of.

 

[CLearthinking04]

Is this the real issue for you? Just to make Hell palatable for modern sensitivities? Isn’t truth more important? That is not a recommended direction your should be heading. Because one can find all kinds of reasons to water down the unpleasant truth. Does God need this Public Relations help? I am truly surprised at the modernist approach you have taken. I thought you just need scriptural evidence or Church teaching to support the teaching of old fashion hell. But I thought wrong.

You missed my point. The Scriptures clearly point to the punishment of hell as death, cessation of life and not torture. So, yes truth is more important. Maybe fear tactics worked throughout history using the symbolism incorrectly because people were basically uneducated. Today that is not so and many with even a cursory amount of education isn’t buying it. So, if we continue to teach an incorrect version of Hell we are misrepresenting God and his nature and could be indirectly responsible for the loss of souls.

Just wondering, would you agree with St. Augustine where babies who die before baptism are thrown into the flames of hell and tortured forever? I guess because they deserve it right? <This is the type of fundamentalism that is loosing a generation of young people, but that means nothing to you?

 

[ericc]

You missed my point. The Scriptures clearly point to the punishment of hell as death, cessation of life and not torture. So, yes truth is more important. Maybe fear tactics worked throughout history using the symbolism incorrectly because people were basically uneducated. Today that is not so and many with even a cursory amount of education isn’t buying it. So, if we continue to teach an incorrect version of Hell we are misrepresenting God and his nature and could be indirectly responsible for the loss of souls.

Just wondering, would you agree with St. Augustine where babies who die before baptism are thrown into the flames of hell and tortured forever? I guess because they deserve it right? <This is the type of fundamentalism that is loosing a generation of young people, but that means nothing to you?

But you have not provided evidence that hell is NOT a place of everlasting torment. You have not provided any evidence that torment in hell is just symbolism. I am prepared to have an open mind to hear your arguments for a less dismal hell but glossing it over just to suit modern sensitivities can not be acceptable if that is not true. Jesus does not teach untruth in order to save souls. John 6:60-61,66. You save souls because you teach truths, not untruths. A mindset of whatever means to achieve results is a very dangerous path to take.

And without showing that your version of hell is true, you made a pre-judgement that “if we continue to teach an incorrect version of Hell we are misrepresenting God and his nature and could be indirectly responsible for the loss of souls.” You are condemning those who adopt the traditional view of hell just because you don’t agree with it? “Misrepresenting” is a very strong accusative word. Alleging traditional teaching of hell as causing loss of souls is a serious accusation. I hope you do reconsider throwing such remarks around with more care.

St Augustine has his personal opinion about hell. Unless the Church teaches it, I don’t have to accept his opinion. You really need to distinguish the personal viewpoints of illustrious Fathers and what the Church officially teaches. The official position of the Church is to entrust these unbaptized babies to the mercy of God. So if you take the stance of a symbolic hell, you may be at variance with the Church Catechism listed below:

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

And in his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often “preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell”.

Since you feel that Scriptures do not indicate that hell is a place of torture, let me help you there.

Rev 20:10 “…lake of fire and brimstone…tormented day and night for ever and ever”
Luke 16:23-24 “being in torment…” “… in anguish in this flame”
Mat 13:42 “… furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”

Glossing over hell that it is not as bad as it seems may lose you souls if people didn’t think it was such a bad place after all. Eternal separation from God? I can live with that. I can almost hear that from the atheist-to-be.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Glossing over hell that it is not as bad as it seems may lose you souls if people didn’t think it was such a bad place after all. Eternal separation from God? I can live with that. I can almost hear that from the atheist-to-be.

I think many atheists falsely believe they are living without God now. They don’t realize their very existence and every breath they take is dependent on God and God alone. They also fail to realize that every urge they have to love an animal, another person, even themselves is an urge toward God.

I think a lot of atheists are heading for a very big, and very unpleasant, surprise. Just my opinion, of course on this paragraph.