"never known to fail" prayers

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Nimzovik said:
The concept of “never known to fail” does indeed lend itself to placing the prayers from petitions to God into the 'Magic ‘Talisman’ category - yes?🤷

Has anyone participating in this discussion prayed the St. Teresa of Lisseux prayers and not recieved a rose?
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Yes…
 
Nimzovik said:
The concept of “never known to fail” does indeed lend itself to placing the prayers from petitions to God into the 'Magic ‘Talisman’ category - yes?🤷

Has anyone participating in this discussion prayed the St. Teresa of Lisseux prayers and not recieved a rose?
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Is it said to be a literal rose? Or do people.perceive it to be because they want it to be? Im genuinely asking Im not familiar with her prayer although Ive heard of it.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
Is it said to be a literal rose? Or do people.perceive it to be because they want it to be? Im genuinely asking Im not familiar with her prayer although Ive heard of it.
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What stories I have read it is a literal rose. For many tho there may be other ‘Rose Like’ signs if I understand it correctly.
 
JRKH said:
WOW - moving right along here…

Time for a little OP interjection here…😃

For me both issues are in play. Certainly the things that Alan is referring to are very real and have more than a little potential to do a lot of damage to one’s faith.

But more generally - and speaking to CrimsonThorn’s point…Yes - technically the statement IS correct, but it is misleading and frankly redundant. (IMHO)
It’s misleading because “never known to fail” conjures up in the mind great confidence…like there are just tons of people who have said this prayer, and every one of them received what they prayed for - had their specific request granted.
This is why I asked in the OP, where are the studies and statistics to back up such a statement.

Now - As you say prayers are always answered…Well then that makes the statement redundant - so why say it at all?

Peace
James
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My only question is how do you know 100% that some have failed?

If I pray the Rosary dsily for a sportscar Im not going to get it. Its not that the prayer didnt work, its that the answer was no. However, the man who founded St Judes Childrens Hospital asked to be a bigshot and it happened through the intercession of St Jude and in turn is giving back to the children. Anything is possible. Perhaps its differrnt for everyone, bit its not a failed prayer.

Perhaps all that these pamphlets need are clarifications and a healthy way to view their purpose.
 
Then of course there is the 3 o’clock hour and trusting in Our Lord…
 
CrimsonThorn said:
My only question is how do you know 100% that some have failed?

If I pray the Rosary dsily for a sportscar Im not going to get it. Its not that the prayer didnt work, its that the answer was no. However, the man who founded St Judes Childrens Hospital asked to be a bigshot and it happened through the intercession of St Jude and in turn is giving back to the children. Anything is possible. Perhaps its differrnt for everyone, bit its not a failed prayer.

Perhaps all that these pamphlets need are clarifications and a healthy way to view their purpose.
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Ever notice that chain emails always demand that a specific action be taken? You “must” forward it within so many minutes and you will receive x. This “prayer” has been posted before, as I found in a search. Yet, it demands that it be prayed three days consecutively, and that the favor received “must be published”. Aside from this request appearing to fall into the realm of superstition, God is not a machine that dispenses product (answered prayers) for value received (prayers repeated and published). Such beliefs and requests have an eerie, control-freak nature (“you must”, “this must”, “results must”) about them.

The OP in the 2008 “prayer” posted twice and vanished. Weird.
 
Nimzovik said:
See here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=96110

and here for the actual prayers praymorenovenas.com/st-therese-novena/

and here; catholicfire.blogspot.com/2007/07/st-therese-of-lisieux-roses-and-novena.html For samplings.
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" This is because those who receive miracles by her intercession are often given roses or flowers as a sign."

It doesnt say all are guaranteed.

The last link says pray it for nine days and she will. Is that something the these pamphlets say or something that the website tacked on? Is it officially part of that novena or over time have people morphed it into this unofficially? Im sincerely asking.
 
I think anyone who thinks these things are a good idea, would be best advised to take a copy of any “never fail” novenas, and check it out with their pastor. The risks are too real, too severe, and too commonly occurring, to just wish them all a happy life and say Oh Well a few people look at them wrong. Put bluntly, these are tools of satan. If you can’t tell that, then like I say you had better check them out with your pastor, confessor, SD, anyone who can guide you in your particular situation.

More fancy and glossy, happy language about "maybe they should … " does not change the harsh reality that these things destroy souls on a daily basis.

Alan

CCC 2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.
 
po18guy said:
Ever notice that chain emails always demand that a specific action be taken? You “must” forward it within so many minutes and you will receive x. This “prayer” has been posted before, as I found in a search. Yet, it demands that it be prayed three days consecutively, and that the favor received “must be published”. Aside from this request appearing to fall into the realm of superstition, God is not a machine that dispenses product (answered prayers) for value received (prayers repeated and published). Such beliefs and requests have an eerie, control-freak nature (“you must”, “this must”, “results must”) about them.

The OP in the 2008 “prayer” posted twice and vanished. Weird.
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I agree and while Ive never prayed these novenas, I dont see them the way youve described.

The Rosary has promises atached to it too though, you know. They say Jesus NEVER denies His Mother and does everything she asks. the example of her requesting Him to turn water into wine before His ministry had even begun is often used to illustrate the point.

Nobody is calling the Rosary itself superstitious, but I have seen how PEOPLE have used it superstitiously.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
" This is because those who receive miracles by her intercession are often given roses or flowers as a sign."

It doesnt say all are guaranteed.

The last link says pray it for nine days and she will. Is that something the these pamphlets say or something that the website tacked on? Is it officially part of that novena or over time have people morphed it into this unofficially? Im sincerely asking.
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I can not answer as I have not prcticed this particular devotion and am not that conversant with it.

It is a devotion I have been endeavoring to do however and and have started many times. However all too ofen I have gotten side tracked. This is a usual battle with me and novenas. I do slog on tho generally. It is a lesson to be learned and one of those that teaches us about ‘constancy’ in the Christian life of devotion.

I purpose to achieve this devotion some day.

What harm can be done? 😉
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I think anyone who thinks these things are a good idea, would be best advised to take a copy of any “never fail” novenas, and check it out with their pastor. The risks are too real, too severe, and too commonly occurring, to just wish them all a happy life and say Oh Well a few people look at them wrong. Put bluntly, these are tools of satan. If you can’t tell that, then like I say you had better check them out with your pastor, confessor, SD, anyone who can guide you in your particular situation.

More fancy and glossy, happy language about "maybe they should … " does not change the harsh reality that these things destroy souls on a daily basis.

Alan

CCC 2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition.
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To mere external performance…key phrase.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
I agree and while Ive never prayed these novenas, I dont see them the way youve described.

The Rosary has promises atached to it too though, you know. They say Jesus NEVER denies His Mother and does everything she asks. the example of her requesting Him to turn water into wine before His ministry had even begun is often used to illustrate the point.

Nobody is calling the Rosary itself superstitious, but I have seen how PEOPLE have used it superstitiously.
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I should be clear here: I am not speaking of novenas, chaplets or the Rosary. I speak of alleged prayers that have inflexible, concrete requirements and promise guaranteed results, but only on the condition that the poster’s particular conditions are met. I see superstition in that, and an odd desire to control others.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
" This is because those who receive miracles by her intercession are often given roses or flowers as a sign."

It doesnt say all are guaranteed.

The last link says pray it for nine days and she will. Is that something the these pamphlets say or something that the website tacked on? Is it officially part of that novena or over time have people morphed it into this unofficially? Im sincerely asking.
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Every time I’ve seen a “never fail” novena pamphlet, and I’ve seen several dozen different ones, it had the part about how many days to pray it, how many times to repeat certain parts, etc. It’s part of the mathematical formula … I think people like to have numbers because they are easy to measure yourself against. And it gives them the illusion that “somebody smart” must have figured it out, what with all the math and stuff. 🤷

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
[Recite abundant flowery prayer words[/COLOR].]

(Mention your request here).
[Recite additional flowery prayer words.]

[Lather-Rinse-Repeat 3x a day for 3 days]

Amen.

[Post sign on bulletin board or buy newspaper ad.]
and it will be granted to you.

Dear God. I want a pony. And the winning numbers for next week’s powerball drawing (far enough in advance to buy a ticket, please).

Yeah, that’s gonna work.
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CrimsonThorn:
Its not that the prayer didnt work, its that the answer was no. However, the man who founded St Judes Childrens Hospital asked to be a bigshot and it happened through the intercession of St Jude and in turn is giving back to the children. Anything is possible. Perhaps its differrnt for everyone, bit its not a failed prayer.
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I’d agree with you, but this tricksy little prayer doesn’t promise just an answer. It promises that the answer will be “Yes.”

The worst part is that gullible believers try this with all the heartfelt belief that a new recruit puts into Amway or Mary Kay. I’ve known ladies who would never set foot in a Catholic church in their lives, but still have this “prayer” posted where they can look at it every day for months. Then when the prayer really does fail (as it inevitably must as soon as something big or specific is requested) they and all their friends blame the idol-worshipping Catholics for spreading such superstitous nonsense.
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po18guy said:
I should be clear here: I am not speaking of novenas, chaplets or the Rosary. I speak of alleged prayers that have inflexible, concrete requirements and promise guaranteed results, but only on the condition that the poster’s particular conditions are met. I see superstition in that, and an odd desire to control others.
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Perhaps this is where i am misunderstanding, thanks.

I agree. Chain emails and stuff like that is 100% superstitious. I was under the impression people regarded any prayers or novenas as superstitious.
 
CrimsonThorn said:
I agree and while Ive never prayed these novenas, I dont see them the way youve described.

The Rosary has promises atached to it too though, you know. They say Jesus NEVER denies His Mother and does everything she asks. the example of her requesting Him to turn water into wine before His ministry had even begun is often used to illustrate the point.

Nobody is calling the Rosary itself superstitious, but I have seen how PEOPLE have used it superstitiously.
Click to expand...
For further information about the significance and history of the Novena in our Church please see this informative article at NewAdvent.com
newadvent.org/cathen/11141b.htm

Thanks to this thread and the link it lead me to, I have learned that there are 4 types of novenas:
"A nine days’ private or public devotion in the Catholic Church to obtain special graces. The octave has more of the festal character; to the novena belongs that of hopeful mourning, of yearning, of prayer. “The number nine in Holy Writ is indicative of suffering and grief” (St. Jerome, in Ezech., vii, 24; — P.L., XXV, 238, cf. XXV, 1473). The novena is permitted and even recommended by ecclesiastical authority, but still has no proper and fully set place in the liturgy of the Church. It has, however, more and more been prized and utilized by the faithful. Four kinds of novenas can be distinguished: novenas of mourning, of preparation, of prayer, and the indulgenced novenas, though this distinction is not exclusive. "
 
CrimsonThorn said:
I agree and while Ive never prayed these novenas, I dont see them the way youve described.

The Rosary has promises atached to it too though, you know. They say Jesus NEVER denies His Mother and does everything she asks. the example of her requesting Him to turn water into wine before His ministry had even begun is often used to illustrate the point.
Click to expand...
For further information about the significance and history of the Novena in our Church please see this informative article at NewAdvent.com
newadvent.org/cathen/11141b.htm

Thanks to this thread and the link it lead me to, I have learned that there are 4 types of novenas:
"A nine days’ private or public devotion in the Catholic Church to obtain special graces. The octave has more of the festal character; to the novena belongs that of hopeful mourning, of yearning, of prayer. “The number nine in Holy Writ is indicative of suffering and grief” (St. Jerome, in Ezech., vii, 24; — P.L., XXV, 238, cf. XXV, 1473). The novena is permitted and even recommended by ecclesiastical authority, but still has no proper and fully set place in the liturgy of the Church. It has, however, more and more been prized and utilized by the faithful. Four kinds of novenas can be distinguished: novenas of mourning, of preparation, of prayer, and the indulgenced novenas, though this distinction is not exclusive. "
 
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