New Bob Woodward Book

[7_Sorrows]

Jeanne_S:

OMG!You are kidding!

Not at all.
I listen briefly but regularly to likes of Levin, Limbaugh, et al.
I m constantly amazed at how much time they spend musing about what their opponents really think, thne knocking down the straw man versions of the opponents that they create.

It must be very briefly or you would be aware of the errors of your thinking by now!!!
There is no one I have heard recently who is more informative on constitutional law
than Mark Levin and who has a clear picture of what we have been witnessing since the election of Donald Trump.
He predicted before the election that if
Donald Trump won, the day after the election, the democrats, the left, the progressives, the anti-Trumpers would begin their campaign to destroy him. That
is exactly what has happened!!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

From there I will further research.

Since Mattis and Kelly (and, I think others) have denied that they said what Woodward said they did, some of your research is already done.

 

[dvdjs]

It must be very briefly or you would be aware of the errors of your thinking by now!!!

Actually, it doen’t take much to recognize their errors.

And thanks for pointing out the Levin is indeed spending his time telling us what the Democrats are really up to. A great story even though the investigation is actually from Trump’s DoJ.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Apples and oranges. First of all WaPo has a paywall, and I wouldn’t pay them to read their article. Secondly, I don’t know how they know the comparative civilian death toll. Right now, the U.S. participation is primarily special forces-type participation, with the Kurds doing the heavy lifting. And there’s no telling what a “civilian” is in close-up warfare like what’s going on presently in and around the last ISIS stronghold.

As to Trump’s immigration policies, if one is “open borders” then anything he does to impede illegal immigration will seem to be “hurting people”. Failure to give them welfare (which many do receive) would also be “hurting them”.

 

[ucfengr]

If I wrote a book, I would want you to read what I wrote instead of what someone else said to someone who said to someone else. For what Mr Woodward claims, I will read what Mr Woodward wrote. From there I will further research.

Major media sources like the NYT and CNN get early copies of the book from the publisher so they can quote, review, and generate interest in the book.

You know what I mean, honestly, I’d hope in real life you have a little more respect for the people you dialogue with. The condescension is not kind.

I thought this was pretty condescending:

But, wait a minute, I thought that President Trump is clear that the NYT is fake news that tells lies.

Reminds me of a Bible verse referencing motes and planks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

We don’t have to rehash it unless you want to.

I did not opine that waterboarding is not torture. I opined that nobody has a bright line test establishing that it is torture, since many people undertake it voluntarily. One may reasonably question whether anything undertaken voluntarily for rational reasons and without permanent effect, can truly be called “torture” without including a lot of other things nobody would consider “torture”.

Never, ever, ever did I say the U.S. was wrong to prosecute Japanese who waterboarded American prisoners of war. Never. I did say, rightly, that it wasn’t the same thing as what the three AQ terrorists underwent. The Japanese version, for example, included pouring so much water into a person that his stomach exploded. Different, and never did I defend it.

 

[TheLittleLady]

dialogue with. The condescension is not kind.

No, it was honesty. The people who are very “Pro Mr. Trump” who post here have consistently typed that NYT is not a reliable source. President Trump himself has called them fake news and liars. I did not think that any Mr Trump supporter would accept the Times as reliable.

 

[Inisfallen]

Never, ever, ever did I say the U.S. was wrong to prosecute Japanese who waterboarded American prisoners of war.

Check back to May of this year. You’re right, you did dance around the question very carefully. However, you did quite clearly say that waterboarding is not, in your opinion, torture. You were quite careful not to explicitly claim that the US was wrong to prosecute members of the Japanese military as war criminals for waterboarding US prisoners of war. You said you were unable to read certain documents I presented. You questioned whether the Japanese version (at that time) of waterboarding was the same as what has been done by and on behalf of the US post-9/11. All valid questions, of course, and your posts were careful.

And I apologize. As you and I both acknowledged in that thread, our views on torture are irreconcilable. It’s pointless to bring it up again (although, in my defense, I didn’t introduce the topic in this thread).

 

[Ridgerunner]

“Dance around”?

Nobody on CAF has yet demonstrated why waterboarding should be considered torture without, in the definition, including things almost nobody would include.

If I could not read the information you presented, then I couldn’t. I generally don’t opine about writings that I can’t read. I have read other accounts, however, about the Japanese “version” that was quite different from what the three waterboarded AQ terrorists went through.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I did not think that any Mr Trump supporter would accept the Times as reliable.

I think that’s a bit beyond the reality. I think sometimes it is reliable. Sometimes it isn’t. The problem is one can’t be sure the reportage is accurate unless one verifies it independently. Supposedly that’s the reporters’ job, but we have seen many examples where they didn’t.

 

[ucfengr]

No, it was honesty.

I thought I was being honest when I pointed out the Woodward isn’t the primary sources on anything in his book. He’s reporting what other people said (really what other people say other people said for the most part), so at best, he’s a secondary source, and probably not even that.

 

[Inisfallen]

As I said, I’m pretty sure our views on the subject are irreconcilable. I’ve already apologized for bringing it up again with you. I really don’t want to do it all over again. We had an informative discussion about it once, a while ago, and let’s leave it at that.

 

[J_Peterson]

Here’s a Newsweek article from last year. At that point Trump already exceeded Obama’s abysmal numbers. Let’s not be solipsistic about it. These things can be measured and known.

Redirect Notice

 

[MonteRCMS]

We used to waterboard our own people for training.

I knew people who walked out of basic training EARLY on day one … because the mental stress was too high … day one.

 

[robertmidwest]

Too many questions.

??? Not sure what you mean.

 

[Inisfallen]

We used to waterboard our own people for training.

Yes. As training in how to withstand torture.

This is actually an explicit acknowledgement that waterboarding is torture.

 

[Metis1]

Yes, and some seen to conveniently forget about the meeting at the Trump Tower and what Papadopoulos and Flynn have already took a plea deal for and have admitted to, just for starters. But if some others here only watch Fox, …

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t doubt the civilian casualties can be measured and known to a fair degree, but this article doesn’t do it. This is double hearsay at best and doesn’t seem to be based on anything, or at least not anything cited in the article.

And saying the “U.S. led coalition” killed “X” while (the air force) during Obama’s administration killed “Y”, doesn’t tell us anything because the methods of combat and the combatants are different.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, and some seen to conveniently forget about the meeting at the Trump Tower and what Papadopoulos and Flynn have already took a plea deal for and have admitted to, just for starters. But if some others here only watch Fox, …

Neither had anything to do with the Trump Tower meeting. Neither was there. Neither pleaded to anything remotely connected to it. Nor has anyone else.

 

[Metis1]

How is hiding in the shadows and usurping the will of the people’s legally elected representatives heroic? If Trump is truly a danger to the Republic, hiding documents and saying mean things behind his back is pretty weak sauce. Not what you’d expect from a Marine.

Sometimes ya just gotta take the lesser of two (or more) evils.

As time goes on, we are learning more and more about Trump & Co.'s ways, so stay tuned. By now, my guess is that Mueller pretty much knows the basic cards that have been played, and I’m willing to betcha that Trump’s tax returns, which I’m quite sure he has by now, really tells a story. Even months ago, Trump threatened Mueller if he dared to get into his finances, so I’d suggest that Trump is likely to be paranoid for a really good reason.