P
ProVobis
Guest
We can’t judge on mortal sin but we can judge on what appears to be scandalous behavior.
- Status
P
ProVobis
Guest
Seems fair to me. Those who applaud bomb and regarded killing of innocent civilians as “collateral damage” certainly can’t be standing on a high moral ground here either. But not every pro-lifer stands on such grounds.
S
SWolf
Guest
Fair enough.
F
FollowChrist34
Guest
Yep, not surprised by this in the least. Is anybody?
O
otjm
Guest
Given that these issues have been around Since John Paul 2 took office, and none of the three Popes - John Paul 2, Benedict 16 or Francis, have pulled any bishops in on the matter (at least that I can recall); nor has any dicastery in Rome told the bishops how they are to handle these matters, it would appear that both the Popes and the appropriate dicasteries agree with the statement of the USCCB; it is within the prudential judgment of the bishop as to how the matter is handled.
Nothing Archbishop Cupich said is outside that prudential judgment. There are plenty of people who want a “public hanging”. One has to ask if there is not an element of “Gotcha!” at play with such desires, and perhaps a bit of pride. All of us, including those who call for public exclusion, the politicians, the bishops, and you and I will all have to answer to God at our judgment.
Making the assumption that because politicians are not publicly excluded, the bishop(s) do nothing at all is based on no evidence, as the matter is one that tends to be handled in private with the politician. We would do well to not make rash judgments concerning that which we have no knowledge of.
E
Ender
Guest
If all the bishops thought the same way on this issue your comment would be reasonable, but the disagreement among the bishops on this issue appears to be as great as it is among the laity. If it is acceptable for them to disagree on this and to argue their respective positions then it is equally acceptable for us to do so. What conceivable reason is there to believe that ignoring doctrine and canon law makes one group more holy and educated than the side that believes the doctrine is true and the law should be followed?
Ender
B
boar2roar
Guest
The new archbishop is pretty much confirmed to be on the left wing of the spectrum among the bishops. This is a typical viewpoint of clergy men with that philosophy so I’m not surprised.
F
FollowChrist34
Guest
Ditto.
O
otjm
Guest
The problem with your analysis is that anyone to the left of Attila the Hun is on the left wing.
Making a comment such as this borders on the equivalent of saying that he is not faithful to the Magisterium - a comment, I will presume in charity you are not making.
And if I am mistaken, and you do intend the comment, then facts are needed to substantiate your commentary; otherwise, you are engaged in libelous behavior.
Nothing the bishop said is outside the range that a bishop, faithful to Christ and the Church could say. I would submit that it is likely you would have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever if Archbishop Cupich has ever met with any politician promoting abortion or homosexual marriage, let alone what he might have said to them in those private meetings.
I am reminded of the scene in the Gospels where the Pharisees bring the woman caught in adultery to Christ. In that scene; Christ never denied that the law said she was to be stoned; nor did He condemn the law or make any comments as to its validity.
Likewise, we seem to have a number of Catholics who want to have our bishops pick up the stones and use them; and when the bishops do not do that, their accusers imply or openly condemn the bishops of not following the law.
Their accusers seem to have no understanding whatsoever of the Gospel account. Who was the person who was without sin in the account? Oh. It was Christ.
Who did not pick up the first stone? Wow - Christ Himself did not follow the law which He did not condemn… sorry if that is too subtle.
Go and read what Cardinal George said in a most recent interview about “left and right” in the Church. Then read it again, paying particular attention to his comments about “left and right”.
L
LongingSoul
Guest
But how do you know what teachings are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which aren’t? As Catholics we believe that the Pope will always be protected by the Holy Spirit when teaching on faith and morals. With disciplines, the Magisterium has the welfare of the Church and the souls of the people at its heart and while we are free not to like them personally, is it really Catholic to confidently and openly criticize the Magisterium and encourage others to revolt too? The Church as Mother in faith deserves the respect due to any parent. We don’t like a lot of our parents rules but we follow them as a sign of respect for their role in the welfare of the family unit.
Pope Francis has opened up questions to be aired because there are some conundrums within them that are affecting peoples faith at this time. Is it really right to be calling into question the persons involved to discredit their contributions (there has been bad Popes before/Bishop so and so is a liberal progressive/Cardinal whatshisname has this reputation etc) or is it better to get into the scriptural meaning and theology of the issues opened up for examination? That’s what Pope Francis is hoping will happen over this next year by allowing the opening.
C
CHCL
Guest
But if it can cause great scandal, why discuss it?
“So the Synod—when speaking of the pastoral care of those who after divorce have entered on a new union—rightly praised those couples who in spite of great difficulties witness in their life to the indissolubility of marriage. In their life the Synod recognizes that good news of faithfulness to love which has its power and its foundation in Christ. Furthermore, the fathers of the Synod, again affirming the indissolubility of marriage and the Church’s practice of not admitting to Eucharistic communion those who have been divorced and—against her rule—again attempted marriage, urge pastors and the whole Christian community to help such brothers and sisters. They do not regard them as separated from the Church, since by virtue of their baptism they can and must share in the life of the Church by praying, hearing the word, being present at the community’s celebration of the Eucharist, and promoting charity and justice. Although it must not be denied that such people can in suitable circumstances be admitted to the sacrament of penance and then to Eucharistic communion, when with a sincere heart they open themselves to a way of life that is not in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage—namely, when such a man and woman, who cannot fulfill the obligation of separation, take on the duty of living in total abstinence, that is, abstaining from acts that are proper only to married couples—and when there is no scandal.”
Pope St. John Paul II
L
LongingSoul
Guest
Discussions don’t cause scandal except to those who enjoy being scandalized maybe. Discussion is healthy. Pope Francis made clear that there will be no change to any general rule. The issue surrounds the deficiencies in the annulment process and the culture where it is more likely that sacraments are being celebrated without faith which is a critical requirement for a valid sacrament. As discussed in the many threads on these issues, over 2000 years from the times that the mentally and physically disabled were believed to be possessed and were condemned… to the times when alcoholics and mentally ill people were barred from the sacraments because of their illness… to the times when effeminate men were incarcerated or castrated for their inclination (Alan Turing)… to when divorced people were ‘shunned’ in Church circles even when they were the ones abandoned… etc.
Over time, a different light can be cast over the nature of these statuses and the part of their own sinfulness and the part of circumstances out of their control, can be more easily gauged and considered. The Church has always strived to reflect the fullest picture possible in her teachings and disciplines in a way that does not deny doctrine.
Positive developments like this that reflect mans dignity in greater degrees would never have happened without fearless discussion and trust in the Holy Spirit.
S
sttcatherinefan
Guest
For me, it is just sad that a man or woman who is abandoned by his or her current spouse after a twenty year marriage cannot remarry if the abandoned victim finds someone worthy of him or her to remarry cannot obtain an annulment but someone who marries in Vegas and is a nominal Catholic only marrying in the Church because his or her new spouse wants to has an easy time of it. The current rules seem incredibly unfair. This is what we are discussing.
J
johnnyc176
Guest
The confidence comes from seeing the Holy Spirit in action, as at the Synod, when Cardinal Burke’s voice, guided by the Holy Spirit, led the majority of bishops to strike down the first report and uphold the teachings of Jesus and His Church. We see the fruit of that in the emergence of the African bishops.
P
ProVobis
Guest
OTOH, if a woman (or man) has found a new satisfying partner and provider, why should we continue to feel sorry for that person? And will the sacrament of communion still be that important to them that it matters whether the church allows them communion or not?
J
johnnyc176
Guest
The liberal media ain’t stupid. There’s a reason why they chose to interview Cardinal O’Malley and Archbishop Cupich.
S
sttcatherinefan
Guest
So we are forcing these people to choose between the love of a family and the ability to remain with the Church. The latter demands that the person remain lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives. As someone who lives alone, I can tell you how lonely I’m feeling right now and I’ve never been married. I cannot imagine God demanding that an abandoned spouse make such a choice. And a devout Catholic middle age woman is a person who this choice probably matters do. Younger people just leave the Church.
J
johnnyc176
Guest
The ability to remain with Jesus. These are the teachings of Jesus. Jesus and His Church are One and the Same. Too many Catholics go protestant when it comes to hard teachings. They separate Jesus and His Church
E
Elizium23
Guest
M
McCall1981
Guest
- Status