New Chicago archbishop weighs in on politics and the church

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If all the bishops thought the same way on this issue your comment would be reasonable, but the disagreement among the bishops on this issue appears to be as great as it is among the laity. If it is acceptable for them to disagree on this and to argue their respective positions then it is equally acceptable for us to do so. What conceivable reason is there to believe that ignoring doctrine and canon law makes one group more holy and educated than the side that believes the doctrine is true and the law should be followed?

Ender
First off, you have not shown that anyone is ignoring doctrine or Canon law.

To begin with, Canon law is actually a bit more complicated than you seem to understand. No bishop, if they are following the law, is suddenly going to get up and say publicly, “You, (Politician So and So) are forbidden to receive Communion in my diocese!”

There is a process they need to go through, and it essentially starts with private communication between the bishop and the individual. And that is likely to take some extensive time. The steps that need to be taken are not public, and only after all have been taken and still no change is the bishop able to publicly exclude the individual.

And contrary to what many believe, there is an issue of prudential judgment. The bishop has to weigh some factors that are going to impact him (and others) no matter what he does. If he publicly excludes someone, that individual is impacted. So, additionally, are all the priests within that diocese, as any one of them could be the ones who would be required to actually enforce the issue. In such circumstance, to some if not many in that parish, the bishop is the bad guy, but the priest is the messenger, and messengers are notorious for being shot. So the bishop now has the issue of one, or possibly multiple parishes being torn apart because of his choice.

He also has the possibility of one or more priests publicly refusing to carry out his specific orders, and the chaos that ensues from that.

Then there is the issue of the response from the public at large. Most people - including a whole lot of Catholics - would see that as a political act. The bishop, and the Catholic press can spend all day trying to defuse that one, and that is going to fly like a lead balloon. If you want an example, look at the aftermath of Ferguson. A grand jury, including women and including blacks, spent months taking testimony, going over physical evidence, reviewing notes, and decided what was and what was not believable. Todqy, we have demonstrations across the United States, and even in Europe, some turning to near riots.

In short, people have their own version of what occurred in Ferguson, and they have their own world view and don’t give a tinker’s dam what reality says. Reality now is whatever they say it is, and the people who actually reviewed the evidence are simply dismissed, along with their findings.

And a bishop, particularly one who might take on a very national figure, is facing the same issues. No matter the truth, people will take the issue and make it into what it is not.

The bishop needs to weigh the scandal which Catholics, understand and accept the Eucharist, might have, against the scandal to those Catholics who have a much more tenuous grasp on the faith. He is responsible for both; however, the former are far less likely to lose their faith than the latter. And he ahs a duty to both.

That is where prudential judgment come in, and God has graciously blessed most of us with not having to make such decisions.

And not to make too fine a point of it, but Rome has yet to keel haul any bishops over the issue, which, if anyone is actually paying any attention, ahs been going on now for three papacies. 3 Popes have not said “You must”. If Rome has allowed prudential judgment in the matter, then it is not for us to accuse the bishops for exercising it.

And I recall a politician from a well known political family, who went over to the Episcopalian side. Supposedly that was over a matter of marriage; but none of us were privy to any discussions which might have been had between that person’s bishop and that person concerning other matters. It may well have been only a matter of the marriage; or it may have been other matters. That is none of our business.
 
As someone who lives alone, I can tell you how lonely I’m feeling right now and I’ve never been married.
One thing then you should know is that marriage does not ensure you will never feel lonely. Been there.

But that’s what prayer and meditation are all about. To fill in those periods of loneliness.
 
For me, it is just sad that a man or woman who is abandoned by his or her current spouse after a twenty year marriage cannot remarry if the abandoned victim finds someone worthy of him or her to remarry cannot obtain an annulment but someone who marries in Vegas and is a nominal Catholic only marrying in the Church because his or her new spouse wants to has an easy time of it. The current rules seem incredibly unfair. This is what we are discussing.
Which is more sad - someone who is divorced applies for a decree of nullity and is turned down (insufficient evidence of an impediment on the day of the marriage), or one who won’t apply, but goes ahead and marries?

Which is more sad - one who is unaware of the process or has been told untruths concerning it, or one who simply chooses not to apply - and both remarry outside the Church?

Which is more sad - one who simply walks away from the Church, or one who remains, is denied a decree, and lives a life of celibacy despite wanting to remarry?

Which is more sad - the person who really was Catholic in Name Only, and married in the Church, gets a decree of nullity, and still has no real clue about the Faith and is still a CINO but remarries, or the person who was committed to the Faith, married, subsequently is divorced, and cannot show any impediment on the day of marriage, and remains true to the Faith?

I find all of them sad.
 
So we are forcing these people to choose between the love of a family and the ability to remain with the Church. The latter demands that the person remain lonely and miserable for the rest of their lives. As someone who lives alone, I can tell you how lonely I’m feeling right now and I’ve never been married. I cannot imagine God demanding that an abandoned spouse make such a choice. And a devout Catholic middle age woman is a person who this choice probably matters do. Younger people just leave the Church.
I have met “victims” of divorce; and I have yet to meet anyone - victim or not, who did not make choices prior to, at, and after the marriage which ultimately had some bearing on their current status as divorced. There are undoubtedly some people who were hoodwinked and snookered. They tend to be on the naïve side; but at the very bottom most people (and I will except those who later ran into the subsequent issue of mental illness/mental defect in a spouse that was totally unpredictable and is/was a source of serious danger to any continued marriage) make decisions, and later don’t want to admit that they had a hand in the matters.

Which is worse - being married, divorced, and with insufficient information to be able to show an impediment on the day of the marriage, or being married, and giving birth to a child who is physically and/or emotionally or mentally disabled and totally in need of care through their adult life? Who has the bigger burden?

Why do we seem to believe there is some sort of **right **to be married? To me, that seems to correlate with a right to be happy. Marriage is not about being happy; it is a sacrament that calls us to total self-giving - which may bring joy; but joy is not synonymous with being happy.

And while being married calls us to self giving, so can celibacy - both can bring joy.

Being sad and being happy are both emotions; and we only have so much control over emotions (not a lot, most of the time). however, we do have choices; and among those are to see the glass as half empty (sad) or half full (happy). That choice is ours.
too many choose to not choose; that is, they choose to stay sad.
 
One thing then you should know is that marriage does not ensure you will never feel lonely. Been there.

But that’s what prayer and meditation are all about. To fill in those periods of loneliness.
And I suspect that both of us have met people who are lonely in a marriage.
 
Very interesting observation.

But then, it is so much easier and simpler just to label someone with a broad brush of “they’re (liberal) (conservative)” without taking the time to actually think, listen, ponder, consider the source (public media with its own agendas). Lazy thinking wants to put people in boxes, nice and neatly sorted out, without the messy business of actually trying to understand the circumstances, the possibility that something is not exactly as it is being pictured, and that life is not really black and white. Sometimes it is varying shades of grey, some times it has several colors, some of which we don’t see.
 
Anyone who partakes in the Eucharist unworthily puts condemnation on himself.

Giving tacit approval to people publicly preaching mortal sin is putting the communicant’s soul, and the souls of those around him who see callous Church discipline that acts it doesn’t matter, in clear danger.

Yes, it’s a cop-out, and a disastrous one.

Also, if they want forgiveness of sins, that’s what confession is for.
😉
 
I had to restrain myself yesterday because this story truly upset me. I, after giving it a few thoughts, know now why abortion continues on after 40 yrs. This type of response from are leaders allow it to continue on indirectly by their laxness to such a horrific and disasterous issue of abortion. God will be taking an accounting of this. Also, it scandalizes the Faithfull to it’s core. I’ll stop there for now!:banghead: before I say things I shouldn’t say
 
So we are forcing these people to choose between the love of a family and the ability to remain with the Church.
I guess free will isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, since they have already made their choice. Sounds harsh, doesn’t it, but what is the Lord to do? You see the impossibility of being accommodating at the expense of moral truth. I guess that’s why we are always told by scripture that love of God must come first and no one is ever denied Communion by the church except through their own preference.
 
I have met “victims” of divorce; and I have yet to meet anyone - victim or not, who did not make choices prior to, at, and after the marriage which ultimately had some bearing on their current status as divorced. There are undoubtedly some people who were hoodwinked and snookered. They tend to be on the naïve side; but at the very bottom most people (and I will except those who later ran into the subsequent issue of mental illness/mental defect in a spouse that was totally unpredictable and is/was a source of serious danger to any continued marriage) make decisions, and later don’t want to admit that they had a hand in the matters…

Why do we seem to believe there is some sort of **right **to be married? To me, that seems to correlate with a right to be happy. Marriage is not about being happy; it is a sacrament that calls us to total self-giving - which may bring joy; but joy is not synonymous with being happy.

And while being married calls us to self giving, so can celibacy - both can bring joy.

Being sad and being happy are both emotions; and we only have so much control over emotions (not a lot, most of the time). however, we do have choices; and among those are to see the glass as half empty (sad) or half full (happy). That choice is ours.
Wow! Have you and I ever agreed on anything before? I think not, yet, these are very awesome thoughts! 👍
 
Withholding Communion from one in Mortal Sin is an act of mercy.
which should only be withheld by the priest during Masstime. He is the one responsible for it. It doesn’t mean he won’t be chewed out by others above him at a later time. Hopefully he won’t.
 
Abortion will continue on I’m afraid for many, many more years.

This is what happens when we align ourselves too close with politics:juggle:. We become blinded and lax:yawn:…how much more patience will God have on us? Let’s keep praying for Wisdom. We desperately need it. :gopray2:
 
First off, you have not shown that anyone is ignoring doctrine or Canon law.
There are clear procedural steps to be taken first, but at the end of the day a decision has to be made: to give communion or to withhold it. I have yet to see an argument that justifies giving communion to those who publicly oppose church doctrine that is anything other than dancing around the clear teaching on the matter.
only after all have been taken and still no change is the bishop able to publicly exclude the individual.
Yes, and what is the argument that the individual should not be excluded at that point?
And contrary to what many believe, there is an issue of prudential judgment. The bishop has to weigh some factors that are going to impact him (and others) no matter what he does.
I would dispute this. There may be some truth here at the extremes but this does not seem valid in the general cases involving politicians and other public individuals. This sounds like little more than searching for excuses to evade the law.
He also has the possibility of one or more priests publicly refusing to carry out his specific orders, and the chaos that ensues from that.
What you’re suggesting is that, in order to forestall the priest from doing wrong, the bishop should preempt him by doing wrong first. Either you believe what you teach, and live accordingly, or you should renounce the teaching. The last thing one should do is pronounce your belief in something and then find ways to evade it.
Then there is the issue of the response from the public at large. Most people - including a whole lot of Catholics - would see that as a political act.
The disciples raised just such concerns to Jesus over his teaching that his followers would have to eat his body and drink his blood. I don’t recall him changing things just to placate the public.
No matter the truth, people will take the issue and make it into what it is not.
But this is the point: the truth. The truth does matter and if even the church is unwilling to pronounce what is true, and to live by what she pronounces, why would she expect us to do any different? If she ignores her own teaching to make things easy for her why would we do any different? If she only pays lip service to the truth then she is teaching that it is our personal comfort that comes first, and the truth is irrelevant.
And not to make too fine a point of it, but Rome has yet to keel haul any bishops over the issue, which, if anyone is actually paying any attention, ahs been going on now for three papacies. 3 Popes have not said “You must”. If Rome has allowed prudential judgment in the matter, then it is not for us to accuse the bishops for exercising it.
This is an argument from ignorance (lack of evidence to the contrary). It is a logical fallacy. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa).

Ender
 
Which is more sad - someone who is divorced applies for a decree of nullity and is turned down (insufficient evidence of an impediment on the day of the marriage), or one who won’t apply, but goes ahead and marries?
The second.
Which is more sad - one who is unaware of the process or has been told untruths concerning it, or one who simply chooses not to apply - and both remarry outside the Church?
The second
Which is more sad - one who simply walks away from the Church, or one who remains, is denied a decree, and lives a life of celibacy despite wanting to remarry?
The first
Which is more sad - the person who really was Catholic in Name Only, and married in the Church, gets a decree of nullity, and still has no real clue about the Faith and is still a CINO but remarries, or the person who was committed to the Faith, married, subsequently is divorced, and cannot show any impediment on the day of marriage, and remains true to the Faith?
The first

I find all of them sad.

They are all sad, in different ways. Some are bittersweet, in which great sacrifices were made to follow Christ’s teaching.

The others show rejection of the Church, and putting their souls in grave danger.

Let me put the caveat that ministry to divorced Catholics is not as strong as it should be. People like to pretend their friends going through divorce are just fine because it’s hard to really be there for somebody.

One of my best friends got divorced. I was in his wedding party, even though I had reservations about who he was going to marry. I said nothing. I feel his divorce is partially my fault, as I didn’t have the guts to ask the hard questions to him before the wedding.

A few months after his divorce, he started telling me about the dates he was going on. I politely said maybe he should focus on his kids instead of going on dates but didn’t confront what was obviously a silly desire to feel adequate to women. He remarried a year after his divorce in a courthouse. Now, eight months after getting remarried, he’s on the verge of getting divorced again.

I hold Church doctrine to be true and see only disaster in weakening discipline. That being said, so many of us are guilty of sins of omission that lead to these terrible situations.
 
which should only be withheld by the priest during Masstime. He is the one responsible for it. It doesn’t mean he won’t be chewed out by others above him at a later time. Hopefully he won’t.
Ultimately the onus is on the recipient who should know he is not in the right disposition to receive. It’s really unfair to put the administer of communion in a position where he or she appears to be judging.
 
Ultimately the onus is on the recipient who should know he is not in the right disposition to receive. It’s really unfair to put the administer of communion in a position where he or she appears to be judging.
Canon 916 puts the burden on the individual not to receive in a state of grave sin. Canon 915, however, puts the burden squarely on the minister of communion to withhold communion from someone who obstinately persists in manifest, grave sin. The key word there is “manifest”, meaning it is common, public knowledge. This, by the way, is a responsibility of the minister that even a bishop cannot remove.* It must also be recalled that <<no ecclesiastical authority may dispense the minister of Holy Communion from this obligation in any case, nor may he emanate directives that contradict it>> *(Cardinal Burke)
Ender
 
Canon 916 puts the burden on the individual not to receive in a state of grave sin. Canon 915, however, puts the burden squarely on the minister of communion to withhold communion from someone who obstinately persists in manifest, grave sin. The key word there is “manifest”, meaning it is common, public knowledge. This, by the way, is a responsibility of the minister that even a bishop cannot remove.* It must also be recalled that <<no ecclesiastical authority may dispense the minister of Holy Communion from this obligation in any case, nor may he emanate directives that contradict it>> *(Cardinal Burke)
Ender
Good to know. Thanks.
 
Canon 916 puts the burden on the individual not to receive in a state of grave sin. Canon 915, however, puts the burden squarely on the minister of communion to withhold communion from someone who obstinately persists in manifest, grave sin. The key word there is “manifest”, meaning it is common, public knowledge. This, by the way, is a responsibility of the minister that even a bishop cannot remove.* It must also be recalled that <<no ecclesiastical authority may dispense the minister of Holy Communion from this obligation in any case, nor may he emanate directives that contradict it>> *(Cardinal Burke)
Ender
But one can always go to a parish, a diocese, or a country where perhaps the sin is not so manifest. Just sayin…
 
But one can always go to a parish, a diocese, or a country where perhaps the sin is not so manifest. Just sayin…
Individuals denied communion in one parish can usually find it easily enough in another. That puts the burden entirely on them, but at least in the parishes where they are known it will be understood why communion has been denied, and there is no scandal involved.

Ender
 
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