New Data on Trends within the Catholic Church in the U.S.

[wisdomseeker]

I have been going to my Parish for a long time and i never heard the priests there to tell people to go to confession. they do have 1 hour confession on saturdays.

one time i went to talk to the priest and he told he doesnt the power to forgive sins. he sound just like a protestant speaking.

i am sorry if the people dont go to confession but it is most because some have discourage the people. i remember priests saying that we dont have to go to confession but once a year. what is the people to do?

 

[gmarie21]

Rockford has been solid for many years.

Look at my tag at the bottom, I obviously agree with you

 

[reggieM]

Even a small thing, like thanking Father for hearing confessions - could have a big impact as far as encouraging him. I have met several priests who discourage confessions and scoff at the need for the sacrament. It’s shocking, but unfortunately, some of our priests are misinformed in their education.
But above all, let’s not use that as an excuse for not doing the best we can anyway. If he says something crazy during confession, just offer it up for his salvation. The key thing is the power of absolution – a supernatural miracle which is a rare gift for us all.

 

[reggieM]

Look at my tag at the bottom, I obviously agree with you

I had the pleasure of visiting there one time – and I went to Mass at the Institute of Christ the King Church (I forgot the name) where Fr. Bovee was stationed. It’s a beautiful place – and a great diocese throughout. Bishop Doran is a great shepherd.

 

[white_sheep]

As often as the word ‘sacrilege’ gets thrown around I’m saddened to see its absence in this thread. We waste that word all the time and forget it when it is needed.

 

[reggieM]

Its true that if the people say they’re going to Mass every Sunday that means (99% of the time) that they’re receiving Communion weekly. At the same time, they admit not going to Confession at least once a year, as required. So, the word sacrilegious does fit in this case.

 

[Phemie]

Its true that if the people say they’re going to Mass every Sunday that means (99% of the time) that they’re receiving Communion weekly. At the same time, they admit not going to Confession at least once a year, as required. So, the word sacrilegious does fit in this case.

We have to confess GRAVE sin at least once a year. In a church where sin, grave or not, is rarely mentioned, can we be surprised that people don’t think they commit such sins? And if they don’t believe that something is a GRAVE sin, then does it meet the criterion to BE grave sin for that person?

 

[reggieM]

And if they don’t believe that something is a GRAVE sin, then does it meet the criterion to BE grave sin for that person?

They have a serious obligation to know the Faith. If they were misinstructed (as many have been) then that mitigates the gravity.

 

[white_sheep]

I’m having GRAVE difficulty following how a Catholic can be ignorant of the Sunday obligation. Take the people who go to mass less than weekly but more than once a month. 60% of them go to confession less than once a year and (almost all) are receiving Holy Communion every time they go to mass. The notion of “I didn’t know it was wrong” just doesn’t pass the smell test. That’s true sometimes but not when it’s in the top half of the list of Commandments, surely they got that far down.

The simple fact is that at least half of the people in mass every Sunday are committing sacrilege.

 

[Phemie]

I’m having GRAVE difficulty following how a Catholic can be ignorant of the Sunday obligation. Take the people who go to mass less than weekly but more than once a month. 60% of them go to confession less than once a year and (almost all) are receiving Holy Communion every time they go to mass. The notion of “I didn’t know it was wrong” just doesn’t pass the smell test. That’s true sometimes but not when it’s in the top half of the list of Commandments, surely they got that far down.

The simple fact is that at least half of the people in mass every Sunday are committing sacrilege.

I’d be willing to bet that if I asked the people in my parish to list the 10 commandments a majority of those under 50 wouldn’t be able to do so. And if asked if it’s a sin to miss Mass on Sunday most would say no.

I’d also be surprised if they interpreted the commandments as broadly as we do here. I remember being told back when I was in university that since I wasn’t married there was no way I could break the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment. I thought that odd, since I learned that commandment in French and literally translated it says “Thou shalt desire sex within marriage only”, a much broader admonition.

 

[rep140]

I’d also be surprised if they interpreted the commandments as broadly as we do here. I remember being told back when I was in university that since I wasn’t married there was no way I could break the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment. I thought that odd, since I learned that commandment in French and literally translated it says “Thou shalt desire sex within marriage only”, a much broader admonition.

I once read a rabbi stating that Jews are good at putting bigger and bigger fences around things. He wrote “Deut. 14:21 forbids boiling a kid in its mother’s milk, so now I can’t have a cheeseburger”. He ought to try being Catholic. The 10 Commandments are simple enough to understand. Yet, the CCC requires 498 paragraphs to describe them. Little wonder people give up, everything is a sin.

 

[reggieM]

I’m having GRAVE difficulty following how a Catholic can be ignorant of the Sunday obligation. Take the people who go to mass less than weekly but more than once a month. 60% of them go to confession less than once a year and (almost all) are receiving Holy Communion every time they go to mass. The notion of “I didn’t know it was wrong” just doesn’t pass the smell test. That’s true sometimes but not when it’s in the top half of the list of Commandments, surely they got that far down.

The simple fact is that at least half of the people in mass every Sunday are committing sacrilege.

I see no way to deny that fact. First, how is it possible that so many do not know the teaching of the Church? The answer is two-fold. 1st, they are not taught from the pulpit (when they do attend) or encouraged by family or fellow Catholics. 2nd, they don’t really want to know.

They don’t want to know because they’re taught that the rules aren’t that important. They also don’t want to know because if they did they’d have to change their lives.

So, ignorance is bliss.

But how can someone treat his own religion with so much disinterest? They don’t read good books, don’t research Church teachings on the web, don’t get interested in Catholic television or radio, don’t read good Catholic newspapers (diocesan papers usually contribute to the problem), don’t participate in Catholic web-forums …

How do we reach them? We definitely need to pray on this.

There are, on the other hand, the “active dissenters” who are not ignorant but who claim that they have new theology which teaches that confession and Mass attendance are not necessary. Those at least will engage in arguments. But they’re conscious and deliberate about their dissent – and the potential for sacrilege there is much worse.

 

[reggieM]

I’d also be surprised if they interpreted the commandments as broadly as we do here. I remember being told back when I was in university that since I wasn’t married there was no way I could break the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment. I thought that odd, since I learned that commandment in French and literally translated it says “Thou shalt desire sex within marriage only”, a much broader admonition.

I once read a rabbi stating that Jews are good at putting bigger and bigger fences around things. He wrote “Deut. 14:21 forbids boiling a kid in its mother’s milk, so now I can’t have a cheeseburger”. He ought to try being Catholic. The 10 Commandments are simple enough to understand. Yet, the CCC requires 498 paragraphs to describe them. Little wonder people give up, everything is a sin.

I think that’s the opposite of what the statistics show, though. It looks more like most Catholics think that nothing is a sin. They give up because if nothing is a sin, there’s little need for redemption - and thus little need for religion.

 

[Phemie]

There are, on the other hand, the “active dissenters” who are not ignorant but who claim that they have new theology which teaches that confession and Mass attendance are not necessary. Those at least will engage in arguments. But they’re conscious and deliberate about their dissent – and the potential for sacrilege there is much worse.

A major problem is that they are often the ones who are heard and taken seriously in the community. I’ve had the diocesan catechetical coordinator tell me that I didn’t need to go to Mass on Sunday in situations where a 30 minute drive would be required even though I would consider a 30 minute drive at any other time as just a fun thing to do.

To her, going off to the cabin in the woods for the weekend and meditating on Sunday morning was just as good as going to Mass: “I don’t NEED Mass EVERY Sunday.” While she may not have expressed these things in her capacity as Catechetical Coordinator, the very fact that she spoke them at all to people who knew her role in the diocese meant that they carried weight that my words would not.

 

[reggieM]

A major problem is that they are often the ones who are heard and taken seriously in the community. I’ve had the diocesan catechetical coordinator tell me that I didn’t need to go to Mass on Sunday in situations where a 30 minute drive would be required even though I would consider a 30 minute drive at any other time as just a fun thing to do.

To her, going off to the cabin in the woods for the weekend and meditating on Sunday morning was just as good as going to Mass: “I don’t NEED Mass EVERY Sunday.” While she may not have expressed these things in her capacity as Catechetical Coordinator, the very fact that she spoke them at all to people who knew her role in the diocese meant that they carried weight that my words would not.

I’ve heard things like that also. It’s also true that those kinds of dissenters often have a very big influence in the parish. They also give the impression that we don’t have to really learn anything about our Faith (thus, ignorance is fine). We can just go to the cabin on weekends and that’s the same as worshipping God in the sacred liturgy. They also pretend to speak for God as if they know the “real” truths.

I also worry that a lackidasical approach to the liturgy gives the impression that there is nothing to really take seriously in the Catholic Faith. Many follow that idea because of what they see from parish administrators.

Yes, we need to be friendly and joyful to all – but we can also enjoy taking the faith seriously and doing what God wants us to do.

 

[Lycorth]

I’ve heard things like that also. It’s also true that those kinds of dissenters often have a very big influence in the parish. They also give the impression that we don’t have to really learn anything about our Faith (thus, ignorance is fine). We can just go to the cabin on weekends and that’s the same as worshipping God in the sacred liturgy. They also pretend to speak for God as if they know the “real” truths.

I also worry that a lackidasical approach to the liturgy gives the impression that there is nothing to really take seriously in the Catholic Faith. Many follow that idea because of what they see from parish administrators.

Yes, we need to be friendly and joyful to all – but we can also enjoy taking the faith seriously and doing what God wants us to do.

Amen!

These statistics should be troubling to any Catholic. This is the fallout of mid-20th century Catholicism and the dangerously relaxed standards that followed Vatican II. Now, it seems as if laity and clergy both are culpable in regards to the weakening of the Faith.

The way the faith is presented today I think has a lot to do with it. The *necessity *of it is simply not stressed. The Catholic Faith is marginalized into something that is equally as good and as bad as other religions; it really doesn’t matter if you confess or even care. It’s all good in the hood, yo.

 

[edwest2]

Amen!

These statistics should be troubling to any Catholic. This is the fallout of mid-20th century Catholicism and the dangerously relaxed standards that followed Vatican II. Now, it seems as if laity and clergy both are culpable in regards to the weakening of the Faith.

The way the faith is presented today I think has a lot to do with it. The *necessity *of it is simply not stressed. The Catholic Faith is marginalized into something that is equally as good and as bad as other religions; it really doesn’t matter if you confess or even care. It’s all good in the hood, yo.

More harping on Vatican II? Why?

I was there when in 1968, Pope Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae. You even had some dissident priests protesting it. Why? Because it was about sexual morality and you can’t sell a lot of birth control pills if most Catholic women are going to listen to the Pope.

Graphic pornography legalized in the 1970s. Swinging magazines in the 1970s. Legalized abortion in the 1970s. And the shrill voice of the National Organization for Women calling all men male chauvenist pigs.

And Vatican II contributed what to this mess?

Get men hooked on porn. Get women to not trust them. And when No-Fault Divorce completed its roll-out in the 1980s. Guess what? People thought it was OK.

I knew a divorced Catholic woman who would not get an annulment from the Church? Why? “Because my kids would be bastards.” She was angry at the Church.

After a number of divorces, some people felt they had gone too far. They feared returning. After a number of abortions - same thing. For some, they’ve gone so far away from the Church they are afraid to come back, because they have been trained to do things in quick and ‘painless’ ways. They would have to deal with their past. But they need to. They need to heal. They need to realize Christ’s infinite mercy. That is why the Church is running ads inviting Catholics back.

Peace,
Ed

 

[reggieM]

Ed – here are a few thoughts and reflections. One man’s opinion here, not right or wrong. This is an issue where we can explore various reasons and solutions since nobody here (thankfully, yet) is trying to claim that the spread of pornography, birth control, abortion or divorce is acceptable. I hope nobody is blaming the Church (in its divine character) for such things either. The bishops at Vatican II did not want to promote those evils and the texts cannot be twisted into supporting such things either.

I was there when in 1968, Pope Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae. You even had some dissident priests protesting it. Why? Because it was about sexual morality and you can’t sell a lot of birth control pills if most Catholic women are going to listen to the Pope.

I follow you all the way to the selling of birth control pills. I can’t see that the priests cared that much about the sale of pills. I think they were trying to be compassionate in a false way. They were tired of being the “bad cop” in the family. Some parents are like that. They get tired of always saying no or always correcting bad habits, so they give in. They become more lenient so the kids will like them more. The same happened with priests.
A recent movie, “Doubt”, illustrates that tension in the parish. The priest wanted a more relaxed atmosphere in the parish while the sisters were holding the hard-line discipline of the pre-Vatican II era.
It’s very hard to relax discipline, even when needed (as I think it was at the time). It’s like releasing a highly tensioned wire – it will fly off in every direction unless it is carefully monitored and controlled.
We needed “controlled relaxation” of some of the norms. But that takes massive work and manpower to monitor and corral. Instead, what we got was the uncontrolled release into “freedom” which was simply excessive indulgence.

Graphic pornography legalized in the 1970s. Swinging magazines in the 1970s. Legalized abortion in the 1970s.

Some will claim the same as above, but instead of in the Church, in society. E.g. Society was too rigid, people had to “fit” the pre-defined expectations. Legitimate differences were rejected. The atmosphere was repressive.
I didn’t live through that era so I don’t know. But that’s what they say. When I reached the age of reason, the rebellion and self-indulgence was already in full-bloom. All I knew is that people must have been running away from something with reckless abandon. Again, not excusing it but just observing …

After a number of divorces, some people felt they had gone too far. They feared returning. After a number of abortions - same thing. For some, they’ve gone so far away from the Church they are afraid to come back, because they have been trained to do things in quick and ‘painless’ ways. They would have to deal with their past. But they need to. They need to heal. They need to realize Christ’s infinite mercy. That is why the Church is running ads inviting Catholics back.

Someone explained to me recently that Vatican II was all about one thing – “Mercy”.
I agree with that. The examples you give above are why it works also. Many will abuse the mercy offered, and I think that’s what we see in the statistics we’ve been looking at.

 

[white_sheep]

I’d also be surprised if they interpreted the commandments as broadly as we do here. I remember being told back when I was in university that since I wasn’t married there was no way I could break the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment. I thought that odd, since I learned that commandment in French and literally translated it says “Thou shalt desire sex within marriage only”, a much broader admonition.

I once read a rabbi stating that Jews are good at putting bigger and bigger fences around things. He wrote “Deut. 14:21 forbids boiling a kid in its mother’s milk, so now I can’t have a cheeseburger”. He ought to try being Catholic. The 10 Commandments are simple enough to understand. Yet, the CCC requires 498 paragraphs to describe them. Little wonder people give up, everything is a sin.

The Catholic Church only relays the information on what is a sin.

 

[white_sheep]

I’d be willing to bet that if I asked the people in my parish to list the 10 commandments a majority of those under 50 wouldn’t be able to do so. And if asked if it’s a sin to miss Mass on Sunday most would say no.

I’d also be surprised if they interpreted the commandments as broadly as we do here. I remember being told back when I was in university that since I wasn’t married there was no way I could break the “Thou shalt not commit adultery” commandment. I thought that odd, since I learned that commandment in French and literally translated it says “Thou shalt desire sex within marriage only”, a much broader admonition.

Invincible ignorance is not all-encompassing and those people are not off the hook, they know better, they have a conscience, even if it is a poorly formed one.