New English Translation of Mass: Gloria more judgemental?

[Corki]

I appreciate everyone’s replies thus far. Mostly everyone has been helpful. Quite frankly, I never noticed the suble differences between what Scripture renders compared to the Gloria itself.

Regarding the use of the term “judgemental” in my OP: I mentioned the change to the Gloria to someone at work and the concerns that the new translation seems…well…less welcoming (translation from “his people” to “people of good will”), and the response I got was that it could appear to be more judgemental to someone coming in to observe the Mass for the first time. It coulds be perceived as a turn off that peace is offered to some (those of good will) and not to others.

It’s an interesting perspective. But it could be interpreted the oposite way too – that we are offering peace to all (Catholic and non-Catholic) people of good will, not just those who are “His people”. A very inclusive theme.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Well then, those others need to get with the program, and get right with God, so they too can be worthy of His peace!

The truth is not easy for some folks to hear, but it is what it is. Watering down the liturgy so everyone gets a warm fuzzy is not what Truth is about.

The problem with your statement is that I don’t believe any of us are ever worthy enough for God’s peace. I do agree with your point however that it is important that we do not water down Truth no matter how difficult it may be for others to accept. If the wording of the Gloria is now more accurate - particularly since it jives more accurately with Scripture, then we ought to use the new translation.

Elizium23:

I’m not sure why it’s seen as wrong to limit God’s peace to those of good will. Are those who have bad intentions so concerned about God in the first place? Should we invite evil spirits to dwell among us without rebuking them soundly? If we should be more welcoming, then shouldn’t we throw open the gates of Heaven too? What’s wrong with bad people going there? It’s not “inclusive” to send people to Hell just because they committed a mortal sin. Let’s welcome everyone to the beatific vision instead!

These all seem to me to be good points. I have to admit however, that somehow it seems that we ought to be expressing a desire for peace to those who lack good will. I’m not sure if the Mass holds such an expression that I can think of. Is such a hope for those who act in bad way contrary to Christian charity?

Corki:

It’s an interesting perspective. But it could be interpreted the oposite way too – that we are offering peace to all (Catholic and non-Catholic) people of good will, not just those who are “His people”. A very inclusive theme.

Very good point and also consistent with Catholic theology!

 

[japhy]

It appear that we are offering Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth only to those of good will…

The beginning of the Gloria is a two-way street: 1) glory to God and 2) peace to people. Neither the Greek nor the Latin says who is giving glory or who is giving peace. (As ProVobis points out, this is also the case with the greeting “Dominus vobiscum” which could be validly translated as “The Lord is with you”.) This hasn’t stopped some English settings of the Gloria to supply verbs where no verb is:

“Glory to God in the highest, sing glory to God! Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”

“Give glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”

Who is being spoken to? Are we being told to “sing glory” or to “give glory” to God, and then to “sing peace” or to “give peace” to people?

Or are they just exclamations of joy? Glory to God! Peace to people! As in, “This event (the birth of Christ) gives glory to God and peace to people on earth.”

Or are they prayers? “May glory be given to God, and may peace be given to people.”

Or are they exhortations? “Let us give glory to God, and may He give peace to people.”

You see how translation can be a tricky matter!

 

[Love_Divine]

The beginning of the Gloria is a two-way street: 1) glory to God and 2) peace to people. Neither the Greek nor the Latin says who is giving glory or who is giving peace. (As ProVobis points out, this is also the case with the greeting “Dominus vobiscum” which could be validly translated as “The Lord is with you”.) This hasn’t stopped some English settings of the Gloria to supply verbs where no verb is:

“Glory to God in the highest, sing glory to God! Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”

“Give glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.”

Who is being spoken to? Are we being told to “sing glory” or to “give glory” to God, and then to “sing peace” or to “give peace” to people?

Or are they just exclamations of joy? Glory to God! Peace to people! As in, “This event (the birth of Christ) gives glory to God and peace to people on earth.”

Or are they prayers? “May glory be given to God, and may peace be given to people.”

Or are they exhortations? “Let us give glory to God, and may He give peace to people.”

You see how translation can be a tricky matter!

All the more reason to just use Latin.

 

[Phemie]

All the more reason to just use Latin.

Not that it would help in this case since the Latin and the English say the same thing. If people want to take offence they will do so regardless of the language.

 

[Brendan]

I’m not sure why it’s seen as wrong to limit God’s peace to those of good will.

We are merely repeating what the Angels were saying at the Birth of Jesus (Luke 2:14). Since it is their wording, inspired by God.

So your question then becomes, what right would we have to change the words that the Angels spoken to accomodate our tastes?

 

[benedictgal]

We are merely repeating what the Angels were saying at the Birth of Jesus (Luke 2:14). Since it is their wording, inspired by God.

So your question then becomes, what right would we have to change the words that the Angels spoken to accomodate our tastes?

Exactly. Now, I wish that someone would please remind OCP that, especially when it comes to the Spanish-language translation.

 

[ProVobis]

Not that it would help in this case since the Latin and the English say the same thing.

This seems to be an easy translation. Just curious, though, what does the French say?

 

[Phemie]

This seems to be an easy translation. Just curious, though, what does the French say?

Paix sur la terre aux hommes qu’il aime.

Peace on earth to men he loves.

Not sure if this will be translated differently with the Third Edition, which we don’t have in French yet. It seems that dynamic equivalence was not the sole purview of ICEL when the Mass was originally translated.

 

[ProVobis]

Paix sur la terre aux hommes qu’il aime.

Peace on earth to men he loves.

Not sure if this will be translated differently with the Third Edition, which we don’t have in French yet. It seems that dynamic equivalence was not the sole purview of ICEL when the Mass was originally translated.

Thanks. Interesting rendition.

 

[AJV]

In our weekly bullitin at Mass, some of the coming changes to it were written to give everyone an idea as to what in particular will change. When my wife looked at the changes, one of the translations stood out in particular: the changing of the Gloria from:

“peace to his people on earth”

to

“peace on earth to people of good will”

It does at the very least make it appear that we are offering Glory to God in the highest and peace on earth only to those of good will - whereas before it was peace to all his people on earth. Is there a judgement being made that we only wish peace to those of good will whereas before we were more inclusive as to whom we wished peace upon?

Thoughts?

I was just reading a sermon from St. Maximus of Turin, in which he says:

Note carefully what the angels said. They did not say “peace to people” that is to all without restriction, but “peace to people of good will” so that we might understand Christ’s peace to depend not on the simple fact of being human but on a person’s moral state. It is not birth that merits Christ’s peace, but the human will; not human wickedness but Christian goodness…