New evidence that Hitler plotted to kill Pius XII

[irishpatrick]

The newspaper of the Italian bishops conference has published new evidence that Hitler’s security forces had planned to either kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII.

It has long been conjectured that Hitler had ordered the SS commander in Italy, General Karl Wolf, to seize the Vatican and take the Pope, Zenit reports.

New evidence published today by Avvenire now points to the role of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (the Third Reich’s main security office) in devising a plot to take out the Pope.

The newspaper cited the testimony of Niki Freytag Loringhoven, 72, the son of Wessel Freytag von Loringhoven, who during World War II was a colonel in the High Command of the German Armed Forces.

cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14531

 

[WarriorAngel]

The newspaper of the Italian bishops conference has published new evidence that Hitler’s security forces had planned to either kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII.

It has long been conjectured that Hitler had ordered the SS commander in Italy, General Karl Wolf, to seize the Vatican and take the Pope, Zenit reports.

New evidence published today by Avvenire now points to the role of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (the Third Reich’s main security office) in devising a plot to take out the Pope.

The newspaper cited the testimony of Niki Freytag Loringhoven, 72, the son of Wessel Freytag von Loringhoven, who during World War II was a colonel in the High Command of the German Armed Forces.

cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14531

Of which i have no doubt since the Pope rebuked what he was doing and had saved thousands of Jewish lives by helping them escape to Rome - and lost 3 million Polish Catholic lives - by helping the Jews.
Priests included.

Yep - no doubt at all.

 

[SourGrape]

Hmmm…why would Hitler want to kill his so-called Pope? This myth of Hitler’s Pope has been unfounded since its birth, yet we still have “scholars” spewing out this propoganda…

 

[MDK]

Hmmm…why would Hitler want to kill his so-called Pope? This myth of Hitler’s Pope has been unfounded since its birth, yet we still have “scholars” spewing out this propoganda…

Sadly, people fall for these “scholars” all the time. Our OA has a “Bible Scholar” that she listens to, and thinks “he knows the Bible.” I’ve asked her gently why the many different “Bible Scholars” teach many different interpretations of the same exact passage. I also ask her how she knows that what he teaches is authentically what the Bible actually teaches, and not just that he reads the printed pages and provides his own take on this as personal opinion. I think she is beginning to consider some things, and seeing cracks in the “Bible Scholar,” but friends and family have her going there, so social pressures play a role as well.

Back on track… I love Pius XII, and defend him against the false attacks. I think he should be canonized, and hope his canonization happens in my lifetime.

PS: I like GKC as well. He claimed to be the most polite man in England, able to offer his seat on the bus to three women. He was a brilliant and gifted thinker and author.

 

[saieditor]

Past is past. Leave it in the past.

 

[MDK]

Past is past. Leave it in the past.

People in the present denigrate Pius XII, and the Catholic Church due to ignorance and/or fear. I don’t see that we ought to stand idly by while a saintly pope and the Bride of Christ are slandered. One can do this from a basic sense of decency, love of Pius XII, or also from the standpoint that false belief about the Church may keep one out who would otherwise benefit from becoming a formal member… and all of this is for the love of Christ.

 

[HickmanJosh]

if the Nazis did kill the Pope wouldn’t this have caused a revolt among Catholics?
HickmanJosh

 

[MDK]

if the Nazis did kill the Pope wouldn’t this have caused a revolt among Catholics?

HickmanJosh

Catholics should find Hitler to be revolting!

So, you’re trying to apply sound rational logic to a madman like Adolf Hitler as if he were a thoughtful person considering what’s best with no ego involved? One of the reasons that Pius XII and other Catholics were as successful as they were in saving lives is that they didn’t want to stir up the revenge factor of Hitler who would just accelerate murdering the Jews, and others as a result of open and overt condemnations or public fist-pounding displays of opposition. Among other things, Hitler was motivated by revenge on those who crossed or openly opposed him. This was not some kind of friendly corporate take-over where political sensibilities were contemplated. Hitler had his armies out killing and taking over places, obviously against their will. He worked on the fear factor, not the finesse factor.

 

[Timothysis]

Catholics should find Hitler to be revolting!

So, you’re trying to apply sound rational logic to a madman like Adolf Hitler as if he were a thoughtful person considering what’s best with no ego involved? One of the reasons that Pius XII and other Catholics were as successful as they were in saving lives is that they didn’t want to stir up the revenge factor of Hitler who would just accelerate murdering the Jews, and others as a result of open and overt condemnations or public fist-pounding displays of opposition. Among other things, Hitler was motivated by revenge on those who crossed or openly opposed him. This was not some kind of friendly corporate take-over where political sensibilities were contemplated. Hitler had his armies out killing and taking over places, obviously against their will. He worked on the fear factor, not the finesse factor.

Actually, Hitler had to be very conscious that many of the conscripted soldiers in the German Army were Catholic and would not want to do anything that would cause dissension in them. The Germans occupied Italy but never crossed into Vatican City for this reason.

Also, while Hitler was certainly a madman I think too much emphasis is placed on him while ignoring the other Nazi leaders. Many of the atrocities of Nazi Germany were committed by Hitler’s underlings and not by he, himself. Himmler , not Hitler, was the one in charge of the death camps and and was the one who instituted the Final Solution.

Anyway, this isn’t really news. The book The Myth of Hitler’s Pope covers the story of kidnapping Pius XII.

 

[MDK]

Actually, Hitler had to be very conscious that many of the conscripted soldiers in the German Army were Catholic and would not want to do anything that would cause dissension in them. The Germans occupied Italy but never crossed into Vatican City for this reason.

Also, while Hitler was certainly a madman I think too much emphasis is placed on him while ignoring the other Nazi leaders. Many of the atrocities of Nazi Germany were committed by Hitler’s underlings and not by he, himself. Himmler , not Hitler, was the one in charge of the death camps and and was the one who instituted the Final Solution.

Anyway, this isn’t really news. The book The Myth of Hitler’s Pope covers the story of kidnapping Pius XII.

I don’t think that’s the reason he didn’t kill the Pope. He could easily blame it on someone else. To attribute his moves regarding the Vatican to the conscripted soldiers is to miss a decent amount. Many people following Hitler really weren’t acting Catholic, either. He was indeed a mad man with a sense of invincibility. He was not a just-minded and rational human being. He also had an aire of invincibility which put him above rational and decent logic.

We were discussing Hitler, weren’t we on this thread? So, it’s no surprise people would focus on him and his role. So, I don’t see the others as necessarily forgotten, at least not by me. It’s like the 0bama administration, and all his underlings and cohorts in Marxism and promotion of abortion as good and necessary things for people to get them out of trouble or keep them out. 0bama admin reminds me a lot of what Hitler and his underlings did. There is an environment where a certain segment of society can be treated as not human, in this case it’s the most vulnerable and defenseless who can be treated as inhuman.

It’s not news, but it’s in the news now, and so being discussed.

 

[RobbyS]

Actually, Hitler had to be very conscious that many of the conscripted soldiers in the German Army were Catholic and would not want to do anything that would cause dissension in them. The Germans occupied Italy but never crossed into Vatican City for this reason.

Also, while Hitler was certainly a madman I think too much emphasis is placed on him while ignoring the other Nazi leaders. Many of the atrocities of Nazi Germany were committed by Hitler’s underlings and not by he, himself. Himmler , not Hitler, was the one in charge of the death camps and and was the one who instituted the Final Solution.

Anyway, this isn’t really news. The book The Myth of Hitler’s Pope covers the story of kidnapping Pius XII.

Hitler did indeed to take care/ We now know that the plots to overthrow Hitler were far more extensive than the 1944 effort to assassinate him. Forty percent of his armies were Catholics, including many officers who had sworn a sacred oath to defend Hitler. If he had openly ;aid hands on the pope, those men would have seen this as releasing them from this oath.

 

[learningtheway]

One of the most evil men in history who indirectly killed millions of innocents want Pius dead? What a shock.

 

[remjsmom76]

I dont see how this is new evidence. My husband is studying history and a few months ago was learning about this. Right now he is studying Facism. He told me that the pope before this pius pope agreed with Hitler about the Jews. So long as Hitler didnt kill any Catholics he would turn a blind eye. Then the new pope, pius came in and of course said ANY KILLING was wrong. So it ticked Hitler off and was planning on the assasination of the Pope.

DH knows more of the story, He told me about it and I was flabergasted that the previous pope would allow any killing. Sickening really. but hey popes are human and flawed.

 

[MDK]

I dont see how this is new evidence. My husband is studying history and a few months ago was learning about this. Right now he is studying Facism. He told me that the pope before this pius pope agreed with Hitler about the Jews. So long as Hitler didnt kill any Catholics he would turn a blind eye. Then the new pope, pius came in and of course said ANY KILLING was wrong. So it ticked Hitler off and was planning on the assasination of the Pope.

DH knows more of the story, He told me about it and I was flabergasted that the previous pope would allow any killing. Sickening really. but hey popes are human and flawed.

Your DH needs to review history, real history that is and not what detractors may claim. I can only guess that your DH is studying revisionist history, which is to say it is different than history. Your DH could not be more wrong about the Pope Pius XI who served from 1922-1939! There was no secret deal to turn a blind eye toward the plight of the Jews in exchange for the Third Reich not hurting Catholics.

There was a Concordat signed in 1933 between the Holy See and Germany which spelled out the Church’s rights within the Third Reich… it did protect the rights of Catholics and the Church. The Nazi’s were trying to lure the faithful from the Catholic Church and the Lutheran ecclesial community. However, there was no agreement nor wink of approval with Hitler to harm the Jews, or that this was in any way acceptable. In fact, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli was the Secretary of State to Pius XI, and negotiated this Concordat. Between 1933 and 1939, three dozen formal complaints were made to the Nazi government, which tend to show a realization of the gravity of the Nazi situation. For reference, Eugenio Pacelli became Pope Pius XII and served from 1939-1958.

Please remind your DH to be more careful, that to bear false witness does not fit in with keeping God’s eighth Commandment.

 

[remjsmom76]

Like I said, he told me the story. As was told to him by his history professor. Ill make sure he retells the story to me so I get it right. However it was NOT Pope Pius who struck the deal. it was the pope before him.

Ok so here it goes, I just talked to dh. The history lesson goes, now mind you this is from a history class he is taking and this was taught to him.

Before WWII Germany had a euthanasia program. Hitler wanted to get rid of the those that were not worthy. They also were steralizing those who they deamed not worthy. This included children, so they euthanized children and adults and steralized children and adults who were deamned not worthy for Germany’s future.

The RCC said to stop that it was not right. So they did, however the Germans asked what it could do to satisfy the church. Somehow one way or another they struck a deal to get leands to build more churchs for the RCC from Germany, and so long as no catholics were harmed or killed or sterlazied, the lands were accepted.

Now Im not taking this class, this was something my husband is currently learning. This is a history class in Facism and is being taught by a British man. By the way he is not bearing false witness to anyone. He was simply telling me what he had learned in his university course. Sometimes history is hard to take too and yes even our church has made mistakes.

Your DH needs to review history, real history that is and not what detractors may claim. I can only guess that your DH is studying revisionist history, which is to say it is different than history. Your DH could not be more wrong about the Pope Pius XI who served from 1922-1939! There was no secret deal to turn a blind eye toward the plight of the Jews in exchange for the Third Reich not hurting Catholics.

There was a Concordat signed in 1933 between the Holy See and Germany which spelled out the Church’s rights within the Third Reich… it did protect the rights of Catholics and the Church. The Nazi’s were trying to lure the faithful from the Catholic Church and the Lutheran ecclesial community. However, there was no agreement nor wink of approval with Hitler to harm the Jews, or that this was in any way acceptable. In fact, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli was the Secretary of State to Pius XI, and negotiated this Concordat. Between 1933 and 1939, three dozen formal complaints were made to the Nazi government, which tend to show a realization of the gravity of the Nazi situation. For reference, Eugenio Pacelli became Pope Pius XII and served from 1939-1958.

Please remind your DH to be more careful, that to bear false witness does not fit in with keeping God’s eighth Commandment.

 

[remjsmom76]

I just read your comment fully and over again (several times) and it is basicaly the same thing my husband told me. They did strike a deal. Although it was never said not to do anything to the Jews, it was implied that no harm can come to catholics.

And history is history. This is history in FACISM. And to make a point our church has revised history to suit itself as well in the past. Im not some ignorant who only listens to one side of the story. Every story has two sides including history.

Your DH needs to review history, real history that is and not what detractors may claim. I can only guess that your DH is studying revisionist history, which is to say it is different than history. Your DH could not be more wrong about the Pope Pius XI who served from 1922-1939! There was no secret deal to turn a blind eye toward the plight of the Jews in exchange for the Third Reich not hurting Catholics.

There was a Concordat signed in 1933 between the Holy See and Germany which spelled out the Church’s rights within the Third Reich… it did protect the rights of Catholics and the Church. The Nazi’s were trying to lure the faithful from the Catholic Church and the Lutheran ecclesial community. However, there was no agreement nor wink of approval with Hitler to harm the Jews, or that this was in any way acceptable. In fact, Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli was the Secretary of State to Pius XI, and negotiated this Concordat. Between 1933 and 1939, three dozen formal complaints were made to the Nazi government, which tend to show a realization of the gravity of the Nazi situation. For reference, Eugenio Pacelli became Pope Pius XII and served from 1939-1958.

Please remind your DH to be more careful, that to bear false witness does not fit in with keeping God’s eighth Commandment.

 

[MDK]

Like I said, he told me the story. As was told to him by his history professor. Ill make sure he retells the story to me so I get it right. However it was NOT Pope Pius who struck the deal. it was the pope before him.

Ok so here it goes, I just talked to dh. The history lesson goes, now mind you this is from a history class he is taking and this was taught to him.

Before WWII Germany had a euthanasia program. Hitler wanted to get rid of the those that were not worthy. They also were steralizing those who they deamed not worthy. This included children, so they euthanized children and adults and steralized children and adults who were deamned not worthy for Germany’s future.

The RCC said to stop that it was not right. So they did, however the Germans asked what it could do to satisfy the church. Somehow one way or another they struck a deal to get leands to build more churchs for the RCC from Germany, and so long as no catholics were harmed or killed or sterlazied, the lands were accepted.

Now Im not taking this class, this was something my husband is currently learning. This is a history class in Facism and is being taught by a British man. By the way he is not bearing false witness to anyone. He was simply telling me what he had learned in his university course. Sometimes history is hard to take too and yes even our church has made mistakes.

Please reread my post. It was indeed a Pope named Pius who made the Concordat with Germany. It was Pope Pius XI (the 11th), and the man who became Pius XII (the 12th) was his Secretary of State at the time.

You gave a false rendering of history in the previous post which claimed that Pope Pius XI was supportive of Hilter’s policy toward the Jews, and felt the same way as Hitler in that he “agreed with Hitler about the Jews”! This is absolutely terrible,and is indeed bearing false witness! How would it not be? I can’t say it rises to the level of mortal sin, because I don’t know what was in the heart, and I do believe there was no malice intended. It was not in keeping with what God asks of us in regard to treating others decently and well.

You had maligned a decent man, who was Pope of our Church who deserved the truth, just like everyone else. I defended the truth where it needed defending. How does your DH even know this British teacher is being truthful? I think we need to be more careful than this, wouldn’t you agree?

That there have been men who have behaved badly in our Church is not news. In fact, if you don’t know this, you may not know what Jesus said in regard to there would be rogues in the Church, or even that the Pope needs to go to confession just like we all do. This must remain separate from the idea of teaching within the Church, which has never been in error in matters of faith and morals. Jesus is Head of His Church, and the Holy Spirit has protected the Church from teaching error, including when the Apostles were teaching before there were Scriptures, when inspired Catholic men wrote Scriptures, and when the Church authored the table of contents of the Bible, and in keeping the doctrine of the Church free from error, and keeping the Seven Sacraments which are truly from Christ.

So, one must be a little more careful than to simply say that the “church has made mistakes.” Men in the Church have. The Church never has been in error in matters of teaching faith and morals.

 

[remjsmom76]

well I noticed you dont live far from where I am. Come here and take this Facism class. This is NOT a religious class and again, it is being taught by a British man who by the way I am sure you know the brits had more do deal with than we did in WWII. This class is a graduate class, I have no idea what is said there. I didnt say the Pope supported it but he did turn a blind eye in return for land. I am not going to say wich pope it was I have to go and find that out first, but I know it was some pope.

However the one pope hitler tried to assasinate went against the previous pope who had this “contract” with the Nazis. That is why Hitler tried to assasinate him. Hitler wanted all support and now the NEW Pope that had taken over rebuked him in public. Again, why Hitler tried to kill him.

QUOTE=MDK;5361100]Please reread my post. It was indeed a Pope named Pius who made the Concordat with Germany. It was Pope Pius XI (the 11th), and the man who became Pius XII (the 12th) was his Secretary of State at the time.

You gave a false rendering of history in the previous post which claimed that Pope Pius XI was supportive of Hilter’s policy toward the Jews, and felt the same way as Hitler in that he “agreed with Hitler about the Jews”! This is absolutely terrible,and is indeed bearing false witness! How would it not be? I can’t say it rises to the level of mortal sin, because I don’t know what was in the heart, and I do believe there was no malice intended. It was not in keeping with what God asks of us in regard to treating others decently and well.

You had maligned a decent man, who was Pope of our Church who deserved the truth, just like everyone else. I defended the truth where it needed defending. How does your DH even know this British teacher is being truthful? I think we need to be more careful than this, wouldn’t you agree?

That there have been men who have behaved badly in our Church is not news. In fact, if you don’t know this, you may not know what Jesus said in regard to there would be rogues in the Church, or even that the Pope needs to go to confession just like we all do. This must remain separate from the idea of teaching within the Church, which has never been in error in matters of faith and morals. Jesus is Head of His Church, and the Holy Spirit has protected the Church from teaching error, including when the Apostles were teaching before there were Scriptures, when inspired Catholic men wrote Scriptures, and when the Church authored the table of contents of the Bible, and in keeping the doctrine of the Church free from error, and keeping the Seven Sacraments which are truly from Christ.

So, one must be a little more careful than to simply say that the “church has made mistakes.” Men in the Church have. The Church never has been in error in matters of teaching faith and morals.

 

[MDK]

I just read your comment fully and over again (several times) and it is basicaly the same thing my husband told me. They did strike a deal. Although it was never said not to do anything to the Jews, it was implied that no harm can come to catholics.

And history is history. This is history in FACISM. And to make a point our church has revised history to suit itself as well in the past. Im not some ignorant who only listens to one side of the story. Every story has two sides including history.

Okay, you revised this significantly after posting, which I had already responded in #17 to your original posting. The “deal struck” was how the Church would be treated in Germany. That was “the deal.” It is ignorant to write “it was never said not to do anything to the Jews” as this completely lacks perspective of what was going on, and misleads as though this were somehow significant or represented a Church position. It’s is silly as saying that your home mortgage agreement doesn’t cover how your mortgage company is to deal with your neighbor. Of course it doesn’t! I also wouldn’t expect an agreement struck between Israel and Egypt discussing taxation or treatment of Jews in Egypt to include how Americans are treated as well, would you?

The one seeking the truth will include perspective, rather than incomplete comments which tend to mislead. Pope Pius XI also released an encyclical which condemned racism and nationalism, and was aimed specifically at the Third Reich. The Church keeps its agreements, and so the encyclical could not discuss overtly the treatment of the Jews by name, because this would have been a violation of the agreement not to get involved in political matters of the state of Germany. However, if you think for an instant, even a millisecond that the Church was okay with it, or did not oppose it, you are sorely and sadly very mistaken.

Secondly, there is not “two sides of history” as in someone’s truth is different than another’s truth. There is history, plain and simple. Any attempt to change that is revisionism. It’s inflammatory to say our Church has revised history, as there is no evidence of such, and it blurs the line between official Church documents, and some man’s opinion who may be in the Church or even Church hierarchy. From all I’ve read about things, the Church has always been very decent about the truth, even when it is unfavorable to one in the Church… Facts are facts, but several historical facts do not equate to the truth, as the conclusions some draw from these facts are often distorted by political or social revisionism. However, the truth is the truth, which does include facts. There is not a greater institution on the face of the earth than God’s Catholic Church. That is something you and your DH and anyone else would also do well to keep in mind.

 

[MDK]

well I noticed you dont live far from where I am. Come here and take this Facism class. This is NOT a religious class and again, it is being taught by a British man who by the way I am sure you know the brits had more do deal with than we did in WWII. This class is a graduate class, I have no idea what is said there. I didnt say the Pope supported it but he did turn a blind eye in return for land. I am not going to say wich pope it was I have to go and find that out first, but I know it was some pope.

However the one pope hitler tried to assasinate went against the previous pope who had this “contract” with the Nazis. That is why Hitler tried to assasinate him. Hitler wanted all support and now the NEW Pope that had taken over rebuked him in public. Again, why Hitler tried to kill him.

Once again, you malign someone and do a grave injustice. Pope Pius XI nor Pope Pius XII turned a blind eye to the plight of the Jews (whether in return for land or not). You did say the Pope supported this, as you claimed he “agreed with Hitler about the Jews”, and turned a “blind eye” to what Hitler was doing. I would have to say that the behavior and lack of decency you’ve shown to Pius XI is morally unacceptable.

It is not properly considered a “contract with the Nazis.” It was a Concordat with Germany on the treatment of Catholic Church and Catholics who live in Germany. They negotiated it because they knew the Third Reich were causing problems, and wanted to stem these from occurring. They had to sign that Concordat with the ruling party of Germany at the time… the thinking person would ask who else could you sign it with other than the ruling party of Germany at the time?

It does not matter at all what nationality this person claims, nor where he is from. What matters is the truth… what happened is history, and any other claim is a distortion.

If you allege that when you were corrected by your DH, it agreed with me, then I don’t need this class, do I? That should have been obvious by now.

Pius XII did not “go against” the previous Pope Pius XI. They both opposed the Third Reich. There was also no assassination attempt carried out, either, as Hitler’s man in Italy happened to be a little more decent, and refused to carry out the order. I believe that our Father in Heaven had something to do with it as well.