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TechieGuy
Guest
He gained the lived experience of being Human. This is different from knowledge.
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mkoopman
Guest
This still makes zero sense to me in terms of God, The Creator. Jesus the infant grew into Jesus found in The Temple and His public ministry, later. This does not change the godhead, the “experience” of The Trinity. It changes He who sits at the right hand, but Jesus is The Word that was at the beginning of Creation, the light of finite existence.
God made us, Jesus shows us that God understands every aspect of our being. The One who created us has always known us, no experience required.
The love, the unity, of Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed and will exist. His Divine Mercy and Justice did not change with The Incarnation. Our understanding of the totality of His Gift and the redemption of sin change everything with the exception of the Holy, Mighty One.
You do not appear to believe Jesus is of two natures and is God. Are you a JW, I wonder?
God made us, Jesus shows us that God understands every aspect of our being. The One who created us has always known us, no experience required.
The love, the unity, of Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed and will exist. His Divine Mercy and Justice did not change with The Incarnation. Our understanding of the totality of His Gift and the redemption of sin change everything with the exception of the Holy, Mighty One.
You do not appear to believe Jesus is of two natures and is God. Are you a JW, I wonder?
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Harry123
Guest
Who are you talking to? Me? I’m Catholic not JW.
It can be confusing on here to know who is talking to who sometimes.
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TechieGuy
Guest
JWs are a bunch of no fun boring-folk.
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Harry123
Guest
Anyway, back to the topic of this thread…
Jesus’ death on the cross is the defining moment separating the OT and the NT. Mankind was given an opportunity to leave behind his heart of stone to be replaced with a real heart – a heart of flesh.
At the moment of Jesus’ death, those who had been predestined in the OT (prophets whose role it was to foretell of the coming Christ) rose from the dead and entered heaven. They could only now enter heaven as only now Jesus had paid their fine for sin:
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:51-53
Here we see the prophets/saints being raised from the dead and entering Heaven (the Holy City) and from here they appeared to people on Earth as saints. Just like saints appear to people on Earth today (St John the evangelist and St Joseph appeared at Knock, Ireland for example).
Jesus’ death on the cross is the defining moment separating the OT and the NT. Mankind was given an opportunity to leave behind his heart of stone to be replaced with a real heart – a heart of flesh.
At the moment of Jesus’ death, those who had been predestined in the OT (prophets whose role it was to foretell of the coming Christ) rose from the dead and entered heaven. They could only now enter heaven as only now Jesus had paid their fine for sin:
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:51-53
Here we see the prophets/saints being raised from the dead and entering Heaven (the Holy City) and from here they appeared to people on Earth as saints. Just like saints appear to people on Earth today (St John the evangelist and St Joseph appeared at Knock, Ireland for example).
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Kei
Guest
No no no. This is wrong.
I’ve read the OT, and I do not know what you’re talking about by saying God ordered the killing of babies. Are you confounding the rule of consecration of the first born son with something else?
I’ve read the OT, and I do not know what you’re talking about by saying God ordered the killing of babies. Are you confounding the rule of consecration of the first born son with something else?
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Kei
Guest
Egypt He didn’t order the killing of babies but rather the pharaoh did that, killing the Hebrews in a great genocide of the very young. In the 10th plague, God brings retribution and kills the first born son of the families. He is not ordering the Hebrews to kill babies. He does the vindication Himself, as God, on them (there is not much reason to think they were all children either).
Sodom is the punishment of the whole city. Once again, it is not the ordering of God to the people to kill babies, but is a punishment exacted by God’s Justice (the angels may have also partaken in this, pardon the memory). Not an order to humans. God has complete sovereignty over life and death.
The Flood is once again not an ordering of the killing of babies but an act of Judgement by God Himself (who, again, has complete sovereignty over life and death) on the whole earth (or land).
Indeed, God ordered against the sacrificing of children to ie Molech.
He ordered the “sacrifice” of the first born sons, but this was really a sacrifice of either a lamb or two birds if they couldn’t afford the lamb.
Still, in even this Age of Mercy, many young people die. God has the complete sovereignty over life and death, so we can hope in God’s Mercy when this happens, but it still does.
Sodom is the punishment of the whole city. Once again, it is not the ordering of God to the people to kill babies, but is a punishment exacted by God’s Justice (the angels may have also partaken in this, pardon the memory). Not an order to humans. God has complete sovereignty over life and death.
The Flood is once again not an ordering of the killing of babies but an act of Judgement by God Himself (who, again, has complete sovereignty over life and death) on the whole earth (or land).
Indeed, God ordered against the sacrificing of children to ie Molech.
He ordered the “sacrifice” of the first born sons, but this was really a sacrifice of either a lamb or two birds if they couldn’t afford the lamb.
Still, in even this Age of Mercy, many young people die. God has the complete sovereignty over life and death, so we can hope in God’s Mercy when this happens, but it still does.
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Harry123
Guest
The OT quote i’m thinking of that seems to have God ordering the killing of babies is this:
Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish what Am′alek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Am′alek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”
1 Samuel 15:2-3
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Teek
Guest
They did have eternity. Eternity in hell is not eternal life. It is still eternal.
Eternal life was not be granted until Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection conquered sin and death.
However, not everyone in the OT was condemned to oblivion or hell. There is the parable of Lazarus, in which we come to know that the just of the OT were awaiting the Messiah. For eternal life.
Salvation History—the entire history of how man fell, and how man longed for God, and how God came to meet man—is Divine pedagogy. God progressively unfolds His plan as the people came to understand more and more what God’s will was for mankind, and for each individual person.
In the Old Testament, righteousness and blessing were reserved for God’s people, the Israelites. Yet they knew they were destined, in the fullness of time, to become a light on the for all nations. They knew God’s plan was to open up the birthright of God’s people to all of mankind.
In the fullness of time (when mankind was ready), God sent His only Son, so that whoever believes shall have eternal life.
In the Old Testament, there was a lot of idolatry. The people of God had to learn to be monotheistic. They were easily led astray. That is one reason they were called “a people set apart.”
In our culture we have lost our understanding of the severity of the choices before us. “I will be your God, and you will be my people.” Those who are not His people don’t spend an eternity with Him. At least according to Salvation History.
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Kei
Guest
That seems to me a misunderstanding of the exaggerations particularly evident in ancient war texts.
But note that this is a war/battle against a whole peoples, who were in fact not utterly destroyed (they show up later).
But note that this is a war/battle against a whole peoples, who were in fact not utterly destroyed (they show up later).
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Gorgias
Guest
No, he doesn’t. Trust me.
Sure! Humans do!
On the other hand, pure spirits do not. They are ‘simple’, not ‘composite’; in other words, they don’t have parts – for instance, souls.
Hope that helps.
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Harry123
Guest
So no one can find anything inherently wrong with my proposed explanation for how God (given his goodness) was able to order the killing of babies in the OT?
The people of the OT were a dead people, with no way to access heaven and thus were essentially worthless. This is why God says you can hate your enemy in the OT but then has to “correct” this in the NT because people are now priceless as Jesus’ death gives them access to heaven:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 5: 43-44
The people of the OT were a dead people, with no way to access heaven and thus were essentially worthless. This is why God says you can hate your enemy in the OT but then has to “correct” this in the NT because people are now priceless as Jesus’ death gives them access to heaven:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 5: 43-44
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Spyridon
Guest
Are you by any chance a Marcionite?
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Harry123
Guest
No. I’m a normal Catholic. Jesus kept referencing the OT so we can be assured everything in the OT is legit.
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mkoopman
Guest
Did you think I meant a good angel takes offense, literally? It was intended to be both humorous and pointed. You appear to have identified the point and chose a Platonist response.
Thank you for this false argument. Although a defective translation was all I had quickly available, with the less defective translation and Latin images long deceased from my storage, I enjoyed reviewing parts of the Summa. My memory, though far from photogenic, does allow enough recall from the Latin to oust some of the defects in the translation. As I noted, thank you for effecting this action.
Actually, the translation on the locomotive criteria that addresses the body as organic life before human personhood is oriented toward a clumping interpretation while the soil remains fertile. Hard to destruct Thomas directly as far as the paraphrasing does of corrupt intent, the puns generally intended in deconstructing. Is it this emphasis that has you abandon church teaching? Doctors of the church include much prudential matters. The basis upon which Humanae Vitae was originated requires Catholics properly disposed to reject the Platonist argument you appear to uphold. Yet I expect your little smiley grin implies that you know this already.
Fire is fire and intellectual souls are intellectual souls whether angelic persons or human persons. Of course, angelic intellectual souls are angels while human intellectual souls are of humans. Your Platonist view must be respected but it is incorrect. Just ask the angelic doctor, he is in.
Thank you for this false argument. Although a defective translation was all I had quickly available, with the less defective translation and Latin images long deceased from my storage, I enjoyed reviewing parts of the Summa. My memory, though far from photogenic, does allow enough recall from the Latin to oust some of the defects in the translation. As I noted, thank you for effecting this action.
Actually, the translation on the locomotive criteria that addresses the body as organic life before human personhood is oriented toward a clumping interpretation while the soil remains fertile. Hard to destruct Thomas directly as far as the paraphrasing does of corrupt intent, the puns generally intended in deconstructing. Is it this emphasis that has you abandon church teaching? Doctors of the church include much prudential matters. The basis upon which Humanae Vitae was originated requires Catholics properly disposed to reject the Platonist argument you appear to uphold. Yet I expect your little smiley grin implies that you know this already.
Fire is fire and intellectual souls are intellectual souls whether angelic persons or human persons. Of course, angelic intellectual souls are angels while human intellectual souls are of humans. Your Platonist view must be respected but it is incorrect. Just ask the angelic doctor, he is in.
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Harry123
Guest
I know. That’s why I don’t doubt it.
Maybe not hate, but the NT does seem to contradict the OT when Jesus said the following:
You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. If someone slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also
Mathew 5:38-39
Notice I said “seem to contradict”. There is no actual contradiction. What is different is before humans were worthless, now they are priceless and must be treated accordingly.
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GLam1761
Guest
I agree with this poster, Jesus Himself said:
“God is not God of the dead, but of the Living”
Mk 12:27, Lk 20:35-38.
Also a curious statement from Paul in the NT
Rom. 3:20-26 he seems to be saying that those
sins of people IN THE PAST are not reckoned
as worthy of condemnation(since the annual
Sin Offering was made to “roll back” all sins)
But NOW in the age of the New Covenant,
God is the Justifier of those who has faith in
Jesus Christ v.26!!
“God is not God of the dead, but of the Living”
Mk 12:27, Lk 20:35-38.
Also a curious statement from Paul in the NT
Rom. 3:20-26 he seems to be saying that those
sins of people IN THE PAST are not reckoned
as worthy of condemnation(since the annual
Sin Offering was made to “roll back” all sins)
But NOW in the age of the New Covenant,
God is the Justifier of those who has faith in
Jesus Christ v.26!!
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Gorgias
Guest
Did you think my ‘wink’ emoji was placed there by mistake?
Thomistic, perhaps.
Which Church teaching would that be?
A citation would be nice.
So… spiritual beings aren’t simple, but are composite? And you claim that the Church teaches this?
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LukeCh1
Guest
I noticed remarks here something like “no afterlife during Old Testament times because Christ Jesus had not come yet.” I feel well-reminded of the account of the Transfiguration–when Jesus during his earthly life spoke on the mountain with Moses and Elijah (and Peter, James, and John were also there with him). Remember, Moses did have afterlife. And so did Elijah.
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