New Floyd Murder Charges Will Be Tough to Prove and May Imperil Good Cops

[RidgeSprinter]

But the justice system does not care. that is why justice wears a blindfold.

That is not true. Blacks have had a history of getting a guilty verdict simply because they are black. Not until recently has DNA testing has allowed the racist jury convictions to be overturned.

Justice is Blind is the biggest lie in the judicial system. It may actually be true in it’s totality one day, but that future is far far away.

 

[pnewton]

That is not true.

I knew at least one person would take this out of context which was the personification of justice, specifically as “caring”. The goal of a juror will be to determine if the facts of the case fit the specific law being charged.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

The goal of a juror will be to determine if the facts of the case fit the specific law being charged.

Very few jurors can do that objectively without letting emotions and prejudices getting in the way.

I guess I’ve watched too many ID shows with the wife. I just get way too ticked off when the person gets convicted on circumstantial evidence without any real hard factual evidence.

 

[pnewton]

I found this breakdown of average sentences:

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/tssp16.pdf

Note that the table does not differentiate between first offenses and subsequent offenses.

 

[JanR]

RidgeSprinter:

That is not true.

I knew at least one person would take this out of context which was the personification of justice, specifically as “caring”. The goal of a juror will be to determine if the facts of the case fit the specific law being charged.

Caring about justice is supposed to be the sole concern of a justice system. That’s what a justice system is supposedly all about – JUSTICE.

The job of jurors is to see that JUSTICE is served. And that means caring about justice in the first place.

 

[Victoria33]

A lot of us have been called for jury duty. We get our instructions.

The goal of a juror will be to determine if the facts of the case fit the specific law being charged.

Absolutely. I’m not sure if basically, you all are debating the same thing. We want justice, the jurors are given instructions to find a verdict based on the law.

Put yourselves in a juror’s shoes. The court will make charges. The jury will deliberate.

We don’t just legislate from the heart.

 

[pnewton]

Caring about justice is supposed to be the sole concern of a justice system.

Justice, nonetheless, is not a person.

The job of jurors is to see that JUSTICE is served.

That is not their primary task. They are only allowed to see to justice within the law, that which has been legislated. A jury cannot exceed what the law and the evidence allows. When this has happened in the past, the verdict is set aside or overturned. The job of the juror is to weight evidence to determine if the requirements are met for the charge being made.

I don’t doubt that a lot of people think this is a slam dunk now that an arrest has been made and the most serious possible charges have been filed. However, if the evidence does not show that the elements of that most serious of charges have been shown to be true beyond reasonable doubt, they will likely convict of the lesser charge or acquit.

The law could be changed to be harsher for police, but then it would also be harsher for others.

 

[Victoria33]

See, this needs to be decided, obviously, in Court. One person seems to say George Floyd did not cause the officers any trouble or at least, not much trouble. I think it hinges on this. Did they have reason to put that hold on him?

What We Do — and Don’t — Know Now about George Floyd’s Death | National Review

The official complaint submitted to a Minnesota district court answers some questions, but raises others.

www.nationalreview.com

If the complaint is accurate (and a great deal of it seems to be based on video from the cops’ body-worn cameras), Floyd was not as cooperative with the police as the media has been reporting.

Stop right there, as I said, one witness says Floyd was reasonably cooperative. I think this will hinge on this.

Maurice Hall, a friend of the late George Floyd, says that Floyd was nothing but polite and cooperative in the moments leading up to his death.

Passenger in George Floyd's car tells his side of the story, recalls horror of Floyd's final moments | Blaze Media

Unimaginable

www.theblaze.com

So, if Floyd was not stirring up anything in the first place, they had no reason to put him on the ground like they did… and all for trying to pass a counterfeit $20 bill??

But I do point to this as showing what’s important for a trial to decide.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

There is a point there: if Floyd really was offering no resistance at all, then what did we witness? What happened inside that SUV for which we only have video of the SUV shaking? Cub Foods is a major grocery outlet in the Twin Cities area, they must have video of what happened in the store, where is that?

I have served on a jury a few times over the years, both civil and criminal. At each trial when it is time for jury deliberations, the judge will issue specific instructions to the jury on each charge as to what the jury is required to find in order to return a guilty verdict in a criminal case. These instructions include the specific elements of each charge that have to be present in order to find guilt on that charge. The thing to remember is that the judge doesn’t just consult the law and make the instructions on his own. Every word and sentence of the judge’s jury instructions will have been agreed on in advance by both the plaintiff and the defendant. Usually the counsels handle this part.

 

[Victoria33]

There is a point there: if Floyd really was offering no resistance at all, then what did we witness? What happened inside that SUV for which we only have video of the SUV shaking? Cub Foods is a major grocery outlet in the Twin Cities area, they must have video of what happened in the store, where is that?

Just for the record, the place where this happened is Cup foods, not Cub foods, the big supermarkets.

It’s not a typo, it’s a different store:

As Minneapolis and the nation mourns, George Floyd memorial at Cup Foods is 'like a Mecca'

Outside the Cup Foods store where George Floyd was killed, his name, picture and memory are everywhere. The crowds gather for reasons unseen.

www.usatoday.com

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Almost everyone including myself has thought the same. That Cub was meant but it really is CUP.

 

[Tambo]

I think the cop will receive a very long prison sentence with the racial tensions such as they are…and of course he deserves it…I’ve no doubt riots would erupt if he received a lenient sentence…my concern is all this going to backfire on the black community…will white cops become reticent in future to apprehend African Americans for fear they will be accused of racial profiling…of using excessive force…police brutality…many are already suspicious of white cops…are they going to resist white cops out of fear…or distrust…will white cops be apprehensive about going into black neighborhoods…unfortunately there are some cops who think they are little tin gods…and some are racist…others probably get caught up in a situation that requires a quick decision and they make a decision that some don’t agree with…so white cop bad…more protests…some justified…some not…I just don’t think the future bodes well for anyone in this type of environment we have now.

 

[Horton]

Caring about justice is supposed to be the sole concern of a justice system. That’s what a justice system is supposedly all about – JUSTICE .

The job of jurors is to see that JUSTICE is served. And that means caring about justice in the first place.

Actually the sole concern of the justice system is truth. The jury is to determine truth based on what is presented to them. Emotion has no place in this area of the justice system at all. The jury needs to care about TRUTH.

 

[Ridgerunner]

will white cops become reticent in future to apprehend African Americans for fear they will be accused of racial profiling…

Or of being dropped in the grease by their fellow cops. Don’t like your partner? Accuse him of roughing a prisoner unnecessarily. The defendant will be happy to back him up.

 

[Victoria33]

All 4 police seem to be of differing ethnic backgrounds, one an African American.

They went to the store to bust him on passing a counterfeit bill.

At this point, racial profiling does not seem to be a factor in any way.

Need today, I overheard it, two seem to have been rookie type police learning the job.

 

[CaptFun]

I think they WILL be “tough to prove,” especially since
there are FOUR defendants … who might testify for each other … and object to BEING tried together.

Initially almost everyone agreed that George Floyd should not have “been killed” and that the looooong time he was held down with a knee on his neck was JUST too much … even if he HAD lived and recovered!

President Trump made an almost immediate call to Floyd’s family … and later virtually canonized him … picturing George as “looking down” on his many memorial services and being pleased.

The Pope even weighed in. Priests who’d correct those taking a knee for Jesus in the Eucharist … took a knee in solidarity with Black Lives Matter (which George didn’t even belong to).

Heady stuff. American media covered Floyd’s memorial services in detail … Fox, C-Span, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC … and a Police officer
who lost his life in the riots … not at all.

From such a pinnacle of praise though, must come a bit of introspection over time.

The Police officers were immediately fired. Then arrested. A trial looms … as this thread points out.

WHY was George Floyd (even) arrested (given that such a celebrated person must be one of the finest folks that ever walked the streets of Minneapolis … and Houston and …).

Well. Someone called the police on him. For …?

I’ll not recount that here. But police have to come when called.

Floyd was not alone. But the police were not called on the other two people.

The owner of the store (whose employee made the call) said he knew Floyd and thought that he possibly didn’t KNOW that the bill he tried to pay for the cigarettes with … was counterfeit.

Floyd probably should have given the cigarettes back (if indeed the store clerk’s account that he wouldn’t was even true). The reporting clerk was responding to policy in CALLING police when the counterfeit bill showed up. So … he HAD to.

I had wondered why (in HELL) the four cops … who had a guy in handcuffs … didn’t just put him in a car and take him away. Where given the amount of “damage” done (even if the complaint were true) was pretty negligible – and George would likely be released in a trice.

THEY (the cops) claimed George resisted arrest.
Well, OK, he IS a BIG guy … and at least one cop I saw was really little by comparison. STILL. Four on one?
Eight and a half minutes on the ground with one guy kneeling on his neck? Uh-uh. No good. Good luck defending attorneys.

WHAT mitigating circumstances could be even devised to thwart the building cries of JUSTICE?

(continued next post)

 

[CaptFun]

(continued from previous)
The outrage was palpable and even unitive. Can’t remember ANY justifications being put forth by ANYBODY to see the cops’ “side of things”.

Immediate and summary executions without a trial
(capital punishment) might even have gotten a singular pass by the most liberal pacifists at one point. perhaps I overstate this estimation however.

Then … a (famous ‘black’ celebrity) voice DID caution against coronating Floyd as an exemplary role model for the black community. He’d done jail time for one thing … which eventually would be found out. And that person didn’t want that rebellion to be part of what should be modeled.

So what?! He was unrighteously dead and shouldn’t have been. But the police on trial will doubtless bring his past up at trial (unless their NOT doing it would lessen the charges leveled by the DA). hmm again.

I thought George had been strangled to death right there at the curb.

Now it’s reported he was still alive when the ambulance came … and he died later.

I thought the knee on the neck was certainly the direct cause of death.

Now it’s reported (not PROVED … but reported) that he didn’t die of the neck trauma and strangulation but from a number of things including certain pre-existing medical conditions … including … having the Corona virus?!

Officer Chauvin (the 8 1/2 minute kneeler) may be a separate case. If just HE is convicted … will there still be riots after the verdict … as there have been before in controversial “race” cases?

Did Floyd really resist? Did he resist due to actual “claustrophobia” as some claim? Was he in his right mind during the incident (as the original complainant thought he was intoxicated or diminished during the incident … and oddly would not return the unpaid for cigarettes when requested).

We’ll see more of this later. These questions will probably be visited at trial.

And MURDER … implies a deliberate act. Even Chauvin is not charged with FIRST degree murder.

And why WASN’T he? After all, eight and a half minutes looks not like a momentary lapse of judgement. But he probably didn’t wake up planning to “off” somebody. So … he got charged with Second Degree Murder (and manslaughter? I forget).

The other cops: Why didn’t they STOP Chauvin? Why didn’t they just toss Floyd into the back seat of a cop car … claustrophobia or not … and process him?

What were they LOOKING at for so long … instead of Floyd and Chauvin. A distracting disturbance? Did the “crowd” urging them to ease up on Floyd end up
complicating the situation?

Hearing Floyd still able to speak MIGHT have caused some of them to reason he was OK and STILL breathing, despite his pleas. Their attorneys will doubtless claim so.

However I may FEEL about it … I think this thread’s headline is probably accurate. Hard to prove. Innocent until proven guilty. Are the charges preferred actually more than some of them are guilty of?
Does the fact that Floyd died LATER at the hospital - and the reporting of other causes of death make a difference? We shall see.

 

[CaptFun]

Background on Floyd case per ABC TV

Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest, tested positive for COVID-19, autopsy shows

The death of George Floyd, a black man who died on Memorial Day after he was pinned down by a white Minnesota police officer, has sparked outrage and protests in the U.S.

abcnews.go.com

8:33 p.m.: Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest; tested positive for COVID-19

The Hennepin Medical Examiner’s office released the full 20-page autopsy of George Floyd and revealed that he had previously tested positive for COVID-19, but was likely asymptomatic when he died in late May.

The report said he initially tested positive for COVID-19 back on April 3. A post mortem nasal test was performed on Floyd on May 26, one day after his death, and it came back positive for 2019-nCoV RNA.

“Since PCR positivity for 2019-nCoV RNA can persist for weeks after the onset and resolution of clinical disease, the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent PCR positivity from previous infection,” the report said.

Floyd’s death, first released earlier this week, was listed as “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression” with hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication and methamphetamine listed as additional conditions.

BOLDED areas (mine) are things I anticipate the defense attorneys will cite when the trial comes.

The fact that the following phrase was INCLUDED in the autopsy … but surrounded by qualifications, may also make the “charges hard to prove” in at least some of the officers’ cases.

" …complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression … "