New Forum Member Alaris: LDS & Topic of Interest

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alaris

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Hello,

I found these forums in a google search for “The Angel of the Lord is the Holy Spirit” (in quotes narrows the search to that exact phrase" and there were only two results. This site’s forum topic, “Angel of the Lord” is one of them:

The final portion of the link (since I can’t include the full url)
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In my recent studies as a Latter-day Saint, I have been uncovering mysteries surrounding this mysterious angel who obviously is a distinct angel apart from other angels who has a clear authority / dominion over Israel. We LDS pride ourselves (I realize pride is a sin) on modern scripture / revelation, yet our founder Joseph Smith revealed very little about the Angel of the LORD. We believe in premortality - that we existed before we were born. We also believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct, separate individuals.

To be clear, there is no official LDS doctrine on the identity of the Angel of the LORD. I believe his identity was kept secret because the revelation of such is tied to the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is my personal belief, and not an official LDS stance - again, to be clear.

So, several posts in the thread linked above opined that the Angel of the LORD is the Holy Ghost! Huzzah! I am in total agreement and would love to either reopen that topic and add my “heathen” perspective if any of you all are interested. I’ve started this conversation in LDS forums and got little response - like I said, when it comes to modern revelation it is both a blessing and a curse when it comes to thinking outside the box. Our founding prophet did so much of that for us already.

I served my two-year mission in Texas and was exposed to a LOT of christian denominations, including Catholic, so I do know my way around the differences in our religions quite well. More importantly, I know how to converse about these differences without resorting to Bible Bashing which only invites the spirit of the adversary and achieves nothing else.

With that said, thank you for this forum space! I look forward to discussing this topic if there is any interest here.

Alaris
 
i wouldn’t go quite that far

LDS is certainly not catholic…

but post on, brother

maybe we can learn something from you…
 
I think we need to define what a Christian is.

I wouldn’t consider LDS Christian because of lack of belief in the Trinity, among other things.
 
Well, I couldn’t follow your post, but do let us know when your dig up evidence of the “Nephites” or “Lamanites”.

The authenticity of much of the Bible has been confirmed by non-Christian, secular scholars. The authenticity of the Book of Mormon is 100% rejected by those same scholars, and increasingly by LDS scholars as well. There’s a reason why…
 
The Holy Spirit is God. Part of the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son , God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not an Angel.

The Holy Spirit is God. God created the Angels.
 
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Been a few harsh replies so far. In truth, the LDS is not considered a Christian faith because of its rejection of the concept of Trinity, One God, three distinct persons. That said, LDS does recognize those three persons so it is a start for some dialogue.
Scripture talks of angels visiting Abraham, the archangel Michael, along with Gabriel and Raphael. But it must be remembered that it was the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity whose power came upon Mary to “conceive” Jesus Christ. And it was the Holy Spirit that descended on the Apostles on Pentecost that stirred up in them the confidence and ability to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world.
I won’t call Joseph Smith a con man, but his “gospel” is shot full of holes when compared to the Scriptures accepted by the Judeo Christian world. And if Smith used the KJV or even the Douay Rheims versions of the bible, he was using that which the Church in Rome had set forth.
 
i get what you did there

i have little to no exposure to LDS/Mormonism

are they same thing?; i don’t know

i hope OP doesn’t bug out of this thread (which i suspect has happened) & continues to post…
 
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We owe respect to people and beliefs worthy of respect. Joseph Smith was a verifiable criminal who spent much of his life squirming out of legal trouble. This is a fact and I would love to hear OP respond. There is no archaeological evidence for the BOM. Rather, there are an abundance of anachronisms throughout. Again it’d be great to hear OP chime in on these facts.

Bottom line: you either prefer the words of Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith. Not a difficult choice for me but hey, free will and all right?
 
If the LDS had not been founded upon, or adopted the Protestant bible of the reformers, they might just have the Book of Tobit and realize that in it, and in the Apocalypse, is revealed that seven Archangels stand before the throne of God.

The JWs, using the exact same scriptures, believe that the Holy Spirit is like “the force” from Star Wars. Like gravity.

Who’s right and who’s wrong?

Secondarily, what is the reason for mankind’s fall from grace?

They wanted to be like God.

Pride.
 
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Chesterton & CS Lewis both said “pride” is the greatest sin

so, if, the Mormons say that…

perhaps we have 1/3 acre of common ground

maybe that can be built upon…
 
(GEEZ you guys, this guy comes here and wants to have a discussion on who the angel of the Lord may be referring to, and all you can do is knee-jerk the whole Mormons aren’t Christians mantra. Truly pathetic. Why don’t we talk about the topic they have a question about)

Welcome alaris, and please forgive the pride and unChristian like behavior of some of the posters here.

Link to an old thread where this was discussed
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Angel of the Lord Sacred Scripture
I’ll get cracking on it tomorrow! …in the mean while consider that in the New Testament we find several instances when that which was attributed to Yahweh God (the Father) is reintroduced as originating from the Holy Spirit (ie.: the only sin not forgiven is that of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). Maran atha! Angel
Click to expand...
 
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Thank you for the kind words for to those who offered them. The only thing I will say about the “Christian” remarks is how humorous is the irony of condemning a guest for not being a christian. On my mission, I heard that ALL the time and it was often accompanied by a door slammed in my face. “I’m Christian!” SLAM! Lol! To be fair, few of those experiences were from Catholics. Matthew 5-7 is a good read here as is a study on Abraham’s hospitality.

And what a silly way to engage a fellow christian for we are defined by following the teachings of Jesus Christ and not in how we understand His personage. There is so much common ground to be built upon! And I truly believe God would have us find that rather than contend over differences!

I personally came here to build rather than to destroy. The LDS church is sitting on a treasure trove of truth but so many members wait for our Prophet to unveil the mysteries for them. I’ve posted on this topic in two LDS forums and have received crickets largely. The beginnings of my journey to this truth were in answer to my prayers to receive more light and knowledge, and I received some pearls of truth that laid the foundation of this discovery. You’d think Latter-day Saints would be more open minded given the fact that our scriptures teach we must receive to receive more and that we can each personally seek the mysteries. I do not know how Catholics feel on that, but the fact is I did a google search to find who else has discovered the truth of the identity of the Angel of the LORD, and it led me here.

jcricthon is such a user on these forums (and I do hope his or her name is a farcsape reference! See! Common ground! … maybe 😉
jcrichton said:
I had studied this issue some years back… my conclusion is that the Angel of the Lord is not a mere angel or Archangel… but I do not believe that it is the pre-Incarnate Christ. I believe that the Angel of the Lord is the Holy Spirit.

If you like, I can revisit my notes and provide you with the passages from which I’ve come to my conclusion.

Maran atha!

Angel
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That quote is from the thread I linked in the OP. I’d love to see jcrichton’s notes!
 
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Not every angel is named, but some indeed are named in the Old Testament and especially in the Apocrypha as po18guy noted. The Angel of the LORD in Hebrew is Malaki Yahweh or Messenger of Yahweh. Firstly, is that not what the Holy Ghost is? I’ll share a few bits of what I have learned as that is all I have time for, and again this is not official LDS doctrine.

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

The Angel of the LORD (messenger of Yahweh) appears in the burning bush. Now we disagree on God being one versus 3 individuals, however we can agree that GOD can mean Father, Son, or Holy Ghost right? Compare verse 5 to Joshua’s encounter with the Angel of the LORD:

Joshua 5:13 ¶ And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The captain of the LORD’s host tells Joshua to loose his shoe for he’s standing on Holy Ground, and yet there is no appearance of the LORD. In fact, if you read Exodus 3 you can make the argument the LORD did not appear Himself their either.
 
Now please compare these two passages:

Exodus 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Yahweh tells the children of Israel to obey His angel who goes and prepares the way. Take note of verse 23 and compare to Exodus 23:7-8:

Exodus 23:7 ¶ And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

So is the angel speaking here or is it the LORD or is it the LORD (Yahweh) through His angel?

Obviously I have come to my own conclusion here, and again I am not sharing these to spark an unfruitful Bible Bashing but will certainly invite you to share your beliefs which I will respect.

Here’s another pearl, though I don’t have time to paste in the scriptures. Gabriel announced John’s birth. The Angel of the LORD announced Jesus’ birth. And the glory of the LORD shone round about the shepherds who were sore afraid. Was it that same glory that was in the “burning” bush?
 
A treasure trove of truth…offer a response to some of the criticisms here if you have such a treasure trove of truth.

P.S. there’s nothing wrong with rebuking people for wrong belief. This is a Catholic forum, and we believe you’re wrong. So do many millions of young Mormons who are heading to the nearest exit sign as quickly as possible…
 
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