New Liturgy of the Eucharist Instruction

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Craigly

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In the previous edition of the missal, during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the congregation would STAND just prior to the priest saying: “Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty.”

In the current translation, the congregation has new instructions to STAND right before the response to this prayer. In other words, the congregation remains seated for the entirety of: “Pray, brethren…”

Well, that’s not my experience. I have yet to see someone other than myself remain seated until the proper time. My questions are these:
  1. Why was this change put in place?
  2. Why aren’t the clergy educating the laity about it? :confused:
God Bless-
Craig
 
Craigly said:
In the previous edition of the missal, during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the congregation would STAND just prior to the priest saying: “Pray, brethren, that my sacrifice and yours may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty.”

In the current translation, the congregation has new instructions to STAND right before the response to this prayer. In other words, the congregation remains seated for the entirety of: “Pray, brethren…”

Well, that’s not my experience. I have yet to see someone other than myself remain seated until the proper time. My questions are these:
  1. Why was this change put in place?
  2. Why aren’t the clergy educating the laity about it? :confused:
God Bless-
Craig
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Reallly? it seems like just a few years ago (5 at the most) that we started standing before the priest said those words as opposed to after. And now it is being changed back?
 
In my missal, which I used today at mass, the instruction to stand come before the priest begins the prayer, not immediatley before the congregation’s response.
 
***Actually, that has always been the proper time to stand, AFTER the priest says “Pray, brethren, etc.” since after vatican II; but hardly anyone ever looked at, or paid attention to, the rubrics. Several years ago I noticed this in the rubrics (I function as master of ceremonies at our parish) (it is in the sacramentary (now the missal) and in the people’s missalette) and we have been standing up between the priest’s and people’s response ever since.

It’s just that now with the new changes, some parishes are finely noticing it.***
 
Well, it takes about five seconds for the priest to say the Orate Fratres, and probably ten to fifteen seconds from beginning to end for an entire congregation to stand up. If no one stirred until after the priest finished the last syllable of “… God, the Almighty Father,” that would knock the timing off, either requiring a lengthy pause while everyone stands or else resulting in the response being over by the time many people have stood. In any event, the rubric merely says “The people rise and reply” (Populus surgit et respondet), not “When this prayer has been completed, the people rise and reply.” There’s no evidence that such a rubric contemplates timing the people’s action to the nearest second. I really don’t see what’s worth getting bent out of shape about here.
 
  1. The faithful should stand **from the beginning **of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, **Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), **before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.
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In other words, the appropriate thing to do is to stand as soon as the Celebrant finishes washing his hands and turns back to the altar, the everyone should be standing up.
 
In Canada, in the new books that were placed in the pews the “Orate Fratres” is there followed by the rubric “The people rise and reply”. It makes no sense to me, since we usually rise any time we’re invited to pray.
 
1ke said:
In my missal, which I used today at mass, the instruction to stand come before the priest begins the prayer, not immediatley before the congregation’s response.
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This begs the question: Are you using a new Mass translation missal?
 
puppypatrol said:
  1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.
In other words, the appropriate thing to do is to stand as soon as the Celebrant finishes washing his hands and turns back to the altar, the everyone should be standing up.
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What were you quoting there? I don’t recognize it.
 
From the USCCB website Annotated Order of the Mass Roman Missal 3rd edition

old.usccb.org/romanmissal/annotated-mass.pdf
  1. Standing at the middle of the altar, facing the people, extending and then joining his hands, he says:
    Pray, brethren (brothers and sisters),
    that my sacrifice and yours
    may be acceptable to God,
    the almighty Father.
The people rise and reply:

May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good
and the good of all his holy Church.
  1. Then the Priest, with hands extended, says the Prayer over the Offerings, at the end of which the people acclaim:
    Amen.
 
Craigly said:
What were you quoting there? I don’t recognize it.
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It is from the General Instruction for the Roman Missal (GIRM). This instruction takes presidence over any other writings as it comes from the Vatican
 
puppypatrol said:
It is from the General Instruction for the Roman Missal (GIRM). This instruction takes presidence over any other writings as it comes from the Vatican
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So, is this for the 2nd edition of the Mass or the 3rd edition as Cathryn pointed out just above your post?
 
Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)uts. It seems to me that there’s no conflict here. The GIRM says we stand during the fratres, but doesn’t say when. The Roman Missal 3rd Edition further refines the exact time when we stand. My questions from the original post still remain. It seems like I may not get an answer to them.
 
Craigly said:
Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)uts. It seems to me that there’s no conflict here. The GIRM says we stand during the fratres, but doesn’t say when. The Roman Missal 3rd Edition further refines the exact time when we stand. My questions from the original post still remain. It seems like I may not get an answer to them.
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I am not sure that the 3rd edition says that people must stand at the end of the invitation to pray. From my POV it simply says that the priests calls people to prayer and it describes the wording of the call to prayer and after that it says that people must stand. I think that for sure people must stand at the invitation and not before otherwise it would not be a reaction to a call. However, that does not mean that the call must be completed. If the document were to say: “Then the people rise and reply” it would be specific. The fact that the instruction for the people comes after the complete prayer could simply be an editorial necessity. I think that the main point is that people should not stand before the invitation. It is like when I call someone to come to me. I would be surprised if they were to come before I called them but I wouldn’t be surprised if they started to come before I completed the sentence by saying “please”.
 
Cristiano said:
I think that for sure people must stand at the invitation and not before otherwise it would not be a reaction to a call.
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Cristiano said:
I think that the main point is that people should not stand before the invitation.
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This is probably the main reason why they changed it for the 3rd edition. If you look at the 2nd edition, it says to stand before the Priest’s invitation.

I have an app for the iPhone called iMissal. They have extensive notes, including the prayers the Priest says quietly. In the notes shown after the invitation, it says, “The people rise and reply:” I don’t know the source of the notes, so I can’t cite them for you. If they came from an official source, it would be worth checking out because of the wording. It’s not “rise, then reply.” It’s a simultaneous action.

Hey all, thanks for being charitable. I’m not trying to start trouble. I’m just curious! 🙂
 
Craigly said:
I have an app for the iPhone called iMissal. They have extensive notes, including the prayers the Priest says quietly. In the notes shown after the invitation, it says, “The people rise and reply:” I don’t know the source of the notes, so I can’t cite them for you. If they came from an official source, it would be worth checking out because of the wording. It’s not “rise, then reply.” It’s a simultaneous action.
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I just checked out the 3rd edition of the Mass in the iPad app iBreviary Pro Terra Sancta. The instructions are identical to those found in the iMissal app. The application was written by Father Paolo Padrini, but once again, no source is cited for the text. Each little section of the Mass has a number next to it. In the case of the fratres, it’s number 29.
 
Craigly said:
This is probably the main reason why they changed it for the 3rd edition. If you look at the 2nd edition, it says to stand before the Priest’s invitation.

I have an app for the iPhone called iMissal. They have extensive notes, including the prayers the Priest says quietly. In the notes shown after the invitation, it says, “The people rise and reply:” I don’t know the source of the notes, so I can’t cite them for you. If they came from an official source, it would be worth checking out because of the wording. It’s not “rise, then reply.” It’s a simultaneous action.

Hey all, thanks for being charitable. I’m not trying to start trouble. I’m just curious! 🙂
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I think that we are looking for too much detail in relation to the laity’s posture, usually the Church does not go in such details when it comes to this aspect of the laity participating to the Mass.🤷
 
I got one of my answers yesterday from my parish Priest. 🙂 He told me that the direction in the Missal is correct. The congregation is not to stand until the invitation by the Priest is complete. He also told me not to get hung up on this little detail because it does not affect the validity of the Mass in any way. I am free to stand when the rest of the congregation does as in the 2nd edition of the Mass or to stand after the invitation is complete as in the 3rd edition of the Mass.
God Bless!
Craig
 
I go to daily Mass and there is one woman who doesn’t stand when the rest of us do.

I’m thinking she must have read the instructions. 😃
 
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