New Liturgy Questions

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That’s somewhat subjective. Everyone who still went to Mass in 1970 said they understood the Mass more. Of course there is no evidence that anyone really did understand the Mass better in any English; they just didn’t want to study any more Latin.
Right. But now, we have two translations (one soon to be rendered unusable) to serve as frames of reference for each other.

This leads me to a question. I wonder whether or not sometime down the road, people will start complaining and request to use the “old translation.” Are there plans to abrogate it?
 
Right. But now, we have two translations (one soon to be rendered unusable) to serve as frames of reference for each other.
If the Latin is to continue to be a standard, I wouldn’t put too much effort into comparing translations of the same language. Like I’ve been saying, you take ten different translators, you’ll get ten different translations. And forty years later, those same translators will come up with still different translations. Look at the history of the CoE liturgies or translations in the old handmissals or the Bibles.
This leads me to a question. I wonder whether or not sometime down the road, people will start complaining and request to use the “old translation.” Are there plans to abrogate it?
Like no one will be able to say “And also with you” in public anymore? 🙂
 
This leads me to a question. I wonder whether or not sometime down the road, people will start complaining and request to use the “old translation.” Are there plans to abrogate it?
We certainly wouldn’t want to lose the rich patrimony of the last 40 years of liturgical history. 😉
 
If the Latin is to continue to be a standard, I wouldn’t put too much effort into comparing translations of the same language. Like I’ve been saying, you take ten different translators, you’ll get ten different translations. And forty years later, those same translators will come up with still different translations. Look at the history of the CoE liturgies or translations in the old handmissals or the Bibles. QUOTE]

What history of the CofE liturgies are you referring to? The CofE liturgy remained unchanged from 1662 until 1966, and even then traditional language was still used. The first modern translation was series 3 in 1973, which ironically used text which is closer to the new translation of the our mass. The CofE only adopted the ICEL text in 1975, but these had already been used by the RC church since 1970, but fortuntately it retained the traditional language option in its liturgies and these are still in use in many CofE churches today.
 
That would depend on your interpretation of “unchanged”.
The translations and the Prayer Book rite. I know the Oxford movement had an influence on ceremonial and in some cases re-introduced the English Missal, but the earlier poster implied there had been a multitude of translations - and there haven’t.
 
What history of the CofE liturgies are you referring to?
Good question. When I did a search for the purpose of comparing Anglican liturgical texts several years ago, I found too many of them to even begin a paper list. I stopped after the Wexford Missal and Project Canterbury. But even the Catholic handmissals varied in their translations from one to the next. (An 1850? missal even had consubstantial in the Creed.) And each one supposedly had an imprimatur of a bishop. And how many English Bibles are out there, some claiming to be the best translation of the Vulgate and some just being a paraphrasing of another translation, further removing them from the source?
 
While I could very well be wrong, I seem to think that the differences in the typical editions are not textual as such, but rather concern the IGMR and the calendar. I haven’t seen Benedictgal around recently, but perhaps FrDavid can supply some further detail
You rang?

The differences between the typical Latin editions are not all that significant–not when it comes to the Mass itself. The biggest changes are that the new Eucharistic prayers have been added (those, “Various Needs and Occasions” V1, V2 and Reconciliation R1, R2) into the Missal itself, instead of an appendix or as separate printings. The other changes are that texts for some recently-canonized saints have been added; these do not affect the Mass as such, but we now have proper prayers for their feast days. Yes, the GIRM has been changed slightly.

So there aren’t really any significant changes in the typical editions–not the sort of thing anyone would really notice.

If anything, the biggest changes would be the new formulas for the dismissal at the end of Mass. But even here, if ones own priests don’t use the new options, they wouldn’t be noticed.

There are now fewer options for the Penitential Rite, although I cannot recall if these others were actually in the earlier Latin editions, or if they were ICEL additions from the start.
 
The GIRM or the IGMR? I presume both. (In the light of all these retranslations, I guess it’s possible for the GIRM to change while IGMR does not.)
Yes, it’s both. GIRM is English: General Instruction of the Roman Missal. IGMR is Latin: Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani.
 
Right. But now, we have two translations (one soon to be rendered unusable) to serve as frames of reference for each other.

This leads me to a question. I wonder whether or not sometime down the road, people will start complaining and request to use the “old translation.” Are there plans to abrogate it?
My understanding is that yes, there will no longer be permission to use the old translation, even for older priests. If the old translation is used where no extremity exists, the Mass would be valid (e.g., transubstantion will still occur), but not licit (according to the law).

As for everything else (such as priests without faculties hearing the confessions of those in danger of death) it would still be licit for those who have a serious need to celebrate Mass and no access to a licit translation to use whatever valid translation they have access to. For instance, if a priest were imprisoned with no Missal, if the only translation he could recite from memory was the old one, he could use that. A priest trying to serve the faithful in countries where Mass is forbidden by law might be in that situation, as being in possession of a Missal would pose an unnecessary risk of imprisonment for him.
 
Like no one will be able to say “And also with you” in public anymore? 🙂
As far as I know, the choice to ad-lib the responses will not be any more or less criminal that it ever was. Imprisonment is unlikely, but if you do it purposefully, some degree of strife is possible. (In some venues, let us face it: predictable.)
 
The translations and the Prayer Book rite. I know the Oxford movement had an influence on ceremonial and in some cases re-introduced the English Missal, but the earlier poster implied there had been a multitude of translations - and there haven’t.
I agree with your latter comment. There were some changes in 1927/1928.
 
While I could very well be wrong, I seem to think that the differences in the typical editions are not textual as such, but rather concern the IGMR and the calendar. I haven’t seen Benedictgal around recently, but perhaps FrDavid can supply some further detail
Many new saints mean many new Collects and there is a slight change in the dismissal.
 
I agree with your latter comment. There were some changes in 1927/1928.
But these changes were never adopted, and besides they weren’t a new translation: it still used the same traditional language of the 1662 prayer book with some adjustments to the shape and the rubrics. Textual revision only took place after 1966.

Having read ProVobis’s reply though I agree with the general point he was making about translations, but am adament that the CofE Liturgy has not been subject to many translations. But there are, of course, different liturgies across the Anglican Communion.
 
The mass really isn’t changing. The translation of the mass is changing. It will go fully into effect on Sunday, November 27, the First Sunday of Advent.

The “master copy” of the mass, so to speak, is written in the Latin language. It is the standard (typical) edition of the mass, and it was released in 1970 by Pope Paul VI. From this Latin version comes the masses in the other languages, like English, German, Russian, etc. Groups of people assigned to a specific language get a copy of the Latin version and translate it into their language.

In the early 1970s, the first vernacular translations came out. There is a group, called the International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL), that is responsible for translating the Latin original into English. So they did. But translation methods differ.

There are two main translation theories: formal equivalence and dynamic equivalence.

The formal equivalence theory tries to preserve as much of the original content as possible. Think of it as being a word-for-word translation method. The formal equivalence theory is a direct translation method. It tries to present in the new language, with as little correction/addition/removal as possible, exactly what is said in the original language, even if it sounds a tad bit odd. Translations following this method usually are somewhat complex, at least compared to dynamic equivalence translations.

The dynamic equivalence theory tries to present the idea of what the translator thinks is being conveyed in the original language. Think of it as being an idea-for-idea translation method. The dynamic equivalence theory is a more indirect translation method. It tries to present in the new language, with usually many corrections/additions/removals, the “gist” of what is being said in the original language, usually overlooking exactness. Translations following this method usually are somewhat simple, at least compared to formal equivalence translations.

Back in the day (time frame noted above), the powers-that-be in the Vatican issued an instruction that translations from the Latin original to the various languages follow the dynamic equivalence theory of translation. The Vatican favored this method, because bishops of the world expressed their wish that the translations be somewhat simple. So, ICEL translated the Missale Romanum into English. It was in the year 1973 that the final product came out.

There were many criticisms of this and other translations of the Roman Missal, but most notably the English edition. Most of them centered around the fact that many people found the wording too simple. They noticed that if you compared the Latin prayers to the English prayers, the English often did a very poor job at expressing what the Latin expressed. They found that the poetic nature of the Latin original was not captured or was captured very poorly in the English translation.

Two things, then, were blamed for this: the method of translation itself (dynamic equivalence theory, which does not stress exactness) and the very short amount of time the translation took (1970-1973).

Therefore, in the year 2001, a document was released by Pope John Paul II called Liturgiam authenticam, which means “authentic liturgy.” In it, the Pope ordered that the translations be as exact as possible, and that they preserve as much of what the Latin says as possible. Naturally, a new translation of the English version of the Roman Missal was needed. It was originally translated using the dynamic equivalence theory, and it was to be re-translated, because of Liturgiam authenticam, using the formal equivalence theory.

So, ICEL met up again, and they began to retranslate the missal. I’m not going to explain the whole process of how they did it, because I don’t think it’s important here. Anyways, they finished this translation in 2008; it took them seven years. The Vatican approved the translation. The Bishops’ Conferences of the English-speaking countries decided (with a few exceptions) that the new translation was to be implemented on November 27, 2011, and that date is now rapidly coming upon us. You will find that, starting that Sunday, the language of the mass, both yours and the priest’s, will be very much elevated in formality and eloquence over what we have been using for the past forty years.
Well done, YTC.
 
Not to challenge you, but what is the problem of dynamic equivalence when it better conveys the meaning? Not that it necessarily does in this case, but in general. More importantly, did the Church err in the 60’s by not using any of the traditional handmissal versions? It seems people lost interest in those handmissal versions by 1967, IMO.
Translating according to dynamic equivalence leaves things out and overly simplifies them. For instance, some of the things in the mass aren’t recognized for what they are–quotes from Scripture (!) because the wording has been so over-simplified they’re no longer recognizable.

In the 60s & 70s, people were berated a bit for bringing missals to Church, and to a large degree, that’s why they were dropped by many people. No one likes being ridiculed!

mc
 
Like no one will be able to say “And also with you” in public anymore? 🙂
I believe that is the plan, yes. I do know that the older version is no longer legal (licit) for use in several other English-speaking countries, yes.

mc
 
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