New liturgy & Standing at the consecration?

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rungood4u

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Hi all

Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.

I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.

So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???

Thanks
 
rungood4u said:
Hi all

Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.

I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.

So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???

Thanks
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No, it does not do away with kneeling at Consecration.

We were instructed not to kneel at all during Mass - any Mass. Some obeyed, some didn’t. We have about 20% who kneel.

We also have our weekday Mass in a small chapel. At first it only had chairs and those who usually knelt brought their own kneelers; when Consecration came they knelt on those.
 
I am no expert…so this may be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere legit…and I apologize that I can’t remember which book it was…that if you can’t kneel then standing is the reverent posture. Darn now it’s going to bug me which book that was in…I THINK it was What Happens at Mass by Jeremy Driscoll

YEAH…I found it!

“Kneeling is the posture at this point in the liturgy (after the Sanctus)in the United States. It is sanctioned by centuries of practice. Other countries assume a posture just as ancient, if not more so: the people remain standing. Both practices are worthy and each expresses a truth about what is happening that we do well to recall here. If kneeling expresses adoration and reminds us of the holiness of the “the hour”, standing reminds the assembly that it is active in the prayer even if the priest alone is speaking the words. The members of Christ’s body stand with their head and come into the presence of the Father.”
 
rungood4u said:
Hi all

Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.

I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.

So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???

Thanks
Click to expand...
As to “where does standing come from,” as far as I know standing is the more ancient posture, and in the Eastern churches, or many of them, it’s seen as wrong to kneel on a Sunday at all. There is nothing inherently wrong or disrespectful about standing, though the Roman tradition is to kneel.

Anyway, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, which governs a lot of liturgical norms, says, “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.” I wouldn’t see the absence of kneelers as a sufficient reason not to kneel, but I guess some people would, and I don’t think any competent authority has clarified that question.

Also, as to the upcoming translation, please be aware that what they are doing is retranslating it from Latin to English. It’s not a “new missal,” it’s a new translation of the missal. So they’re not changing the rules for standing and kneeling, moving the Sign of Peace to some other part of the Mass, adding prayers, or any of the other structural changes that people often seem to be promoting. And, by the way, since we are talking about the English translation only, there will be absolutely zero change at, for instance, a bilingual parish’s Spanish-language or, e.g., Polish-language Masses.
 
rungood4u said:
Hi all

Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.

I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.

So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???

Thanks
Click to expand...
if there are no kneelers, then its only logical to have everyone remaining standing. as with the Mass being celebrated elsewhere like in an open area or a stadium, there are no kneelers, thus everyone is expected to stand instead of kneel

as Mark said, there’s nothing wrong with standing. its the age old posture of respect in the Church and that most, if not all of the 5 other Rites of the Church stand instead of kneel for Consecration.
 
There is no new liturgy. There is only a new translation.
 
Does anyone know where one could view the new “translation” of the liturgy online??

I would love to read up on it and learn more about this. I feel a little off balance when others start quoting from it and I have not defence as I can’t debate what I now nothing about.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
Well for me all I can say as far as the New GIRM [edited] remove any notion of reverence from the Mass. This is a big thorn in my side.

Does Novus Ordo mean would should change every fragment of the Mass so it eradicates anything that remotely takes on any tidbit of resemblance of the TLM even in the smallest of sense.

Gee; I wonder if Almighty God (Jesus) appeared in physical human form during the consecration of the Eucharist. Who in their audacity has the right to stand before Almighty God. Another example of Reverence going right out the window. I really get ticked off over this issue where standing replaces kneeling during consecration. You can be damned sure Satan has placed his strong influence in this one. No reverence at Mass and you discourage the faithful. No wonder we see the Catholic Church in a crisis today.
 
centurionguard said:
Well for me all I can say as far as the New GIRM [edited] remove any notion of reverence from the Mass. This is a big thorn in my side.

Does Novus Ordo mean would should change every fragment of the Mass so it eradicates anything that remotely takes on any tidbit of resemblance of the TLM even in the smallest of sense.

Gee; I wonder if Almighty God (Jesus) appeared in physical human form during the consecration of the Eucharist. Who in their audacity has the right to stand before Almighty God. Another example of Reverence going right out the window. I really get ticked off over this issue where standing replaces kneeling during consecration. You can be damned sure Satan has placed his strong influence in this one. No reverence at Mass and you discourage the faithful. No wonder we see the Catholic Church in a crisis today.
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We like St Paul, are called to welcome thorns…lest we become too proud! 😉

Granted that there are those in the hierarchy that are desperately in need of our prayers and sacrifices, but not all of them are corrupt. To believe that would be to disbelieve the Lord when he stated that the “Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her”

The solution to corruption in the Church is to pray and make sacrifices for her. It is easy to criticize, but much harder to do what is need to not only become Saints ourselves, but to help those in the hierarchy to become Saints, is to fast and do penance for the conversion that she needs.

I hear your frustration, friend, and I too share in it at times. But then the Lord convicts me of a higher calling. He is looking for leaders. Those who will lead and draw other to holiness too.

I am trying to educate myself as to what is right. It would much easier to judge without the facts, but I am trying not to do that. Once I have the facts then I will pray on how the Lord wished me to move with them.

Will you join me in praying for those who, for whatever reason, see a need to change things in the liturgy?

God bless you!
 
rungood4u said:
I can’t seem to find the directives for the people in this document. Especially around consecration time. Would anyone know where I can find this info??

Thanks for this link though - will hang on to this for future reference
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Once again, that is not going to change.
 
From Luke Chapter 22 (NIV)
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you.
18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
I guess they didn’t have kneelers in the Upper Room??
 
rungood4u said:
I can’t seem to find the directives for the people in this document. Especially around consecration time. Would anyone know where I can find this info??

Thanks for this link though - will hang on to this for future reference
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What you’re looking for is the GIRM (General Instructions for the Roman Missal) which we are all so fond of quoting.😃
If you’re in the US this is your version:
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
 
centurionguard said:
Well for me all I can say as far as the New GIRM [edited] remove any notion of reverence from the Mass. This is a big thorn in my side.
Click to expand...
How exactly does it do that?

We haven’t even seen the Canadian version yet but based on a workshop that was done with our diocese’s priests several years ago when it looked as though the translation of the Missal was imminent, it seems that we, like the US, will be kneeling for the entire Eucharistic Prayer.
 
I know this is a bit off topic, but when does the new translation become effective in the US? Are the new Missals available for purchase? Are there enough changes to make it necessary to buy a new one as I have the leather bound edition with all 3 years worth in it? Thank you for your time.
 
centurionguard said:
Well for me all I can say as far as the New GIRM [edited] remove any notion of reverence from the Mass. This is a big thorn in my side.
Click to expand...
Actually, the new GIRM specifically requires kneeling during the Consecration. It can’t come too quickly, for me. I think the waffling around and “investigations” is because the Bishops don’t want the people to kneel.

I sympathize with your frustration - I, too, get peeved at those in authority who seem to feel the need to appease the Protestants, the Eastern Catholics, and who ever else. Our tradition is to kneel.

Idiot Liturgist: “Yes, but we no longer kneel for the Queen. Kneeling is old-fashioned.”

My response (if anyone would give me time to respond, instead of passing sweeping judgement on my intelligence and shutting down the dialogue): Yes, but we no longer think that the Queen rules by Divine mandate. The reason we used to kneel was because we thought she was a Divine being. We no longer do - which is why we no longer kneel.

Do we no longer believe that Jesus Christ rules by Divine mandate? If not, then go ahead and stand for Him, just as you stand for the Queen. Declare by your posture that, although he is a very powerful man from a political point of view, we are in every respect equal with him - that, only by the accidents of birth and circumstances, but nothing more, he is in charge, and we are not.

But if you believe that He is Divine, then signify the fact, by kneeling.

😃

Of course, no one ever gives you time to respond to these statements - they just sweep on in judgement against all who disagree, as if they had made their point. :rolleyes:
 
katrntogo said:
I know this is a bit off topic, but when does the new translation become effective in the US?
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Advent 2011.
Are the new Missals available for purchase?
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Not yet. Still some last minute ironing being done apparently.
Are there enough changes to make it necessary to buy a new one as I have the leather bound edition with all 3 years worth in it? Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...
All the responses have been retranslated as well as the Gloria and Creed.
 
+JMJ+

Information about the new translation can be found at the USCCB web site. I understand there are some minor revisions to the text that have yet to be published on the web site, but they should be coming very soon.

The expected goal for implementation of the new translation is Advent of 2011, but it’s not set in stone.
 
jmcrae said:
Actually, the new GIRM specifically requires kneeling during the Consecration. It can’t come too quickly, for me. I think the waffling around and “investigations” is because the Bishops don’t want the people to kneel.
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So did the old GIRM. There’s not much difference in the article on posture between the universal 1975 GIRM and the universal 2003 GIRM. It still only requires kneeling at the Consecration. My understanding is that the adaptations for Canada will see us kneeling for the entire Eucharistic Prayer but we will have to wait for the Missal to be promulgated to actually see if that will happen.
 
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