New liturgy & Standing at the consecration?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rungood4u
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
:confused:

Surely a “posture of prayer” signifies deep reverence for the person of God, since (normally) the object of prayer is God. Wouldn’t you think? 🤷
as i mentioned before, some people who’s cultures does not have an appreciation for kneeling won’t just get it. some people just mitake it as part of the posture, together with the hands clasped together
 
as i mentioned before, some people who’s cultures does not have an appreciation for kneeling won’t just get it. some people just mitake it as part of the posture, together with the hands clasped together.
What do they think the posture is for? :confused:
 
Hi all

Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.

I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.

So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???

Thanks
The norm in the Latin Rite is to kneel at the consecration and this will not change with the re-translation into English of the Roman Missal.

The GIRM says “But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

Out of interest if there are no kneelers, the CDWDS says “there is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this might be.” - Notitiae 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4, DOL 1411 n. r2
 
Kneeling at the Consecration Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

Whether one kneels or stands for the Eucharistic Prayer is a matter of ecclesiastical tradition. Human customs of paying respect, or in this case worship, determined the development of the practices of the Eastern and Western Churches in this, as in other matters.

**In the Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Catholic Churches **standing is the norm during the Eucharistic Prayer. At the Consecration is added the customary sign of adoration in these Churches, a profound bow. In the Latin Church, however, kneeling is the sign of adoration for Christ who has just become present on the altar. This came about through the dogmatic development of Eucharistic theology in the West. To go back to the earlier practice in the West would be a sign of devolution of doctrine, and in fact, that is the way the devout faithful perceive efforts to change Latin practice, as a counter-sign of faith. For Eastern Catholics this is not a problem, since they have never inculturated the Latin way of expressing adoration.

Finally, the Magisterium desires each Church to preserve what is peculiar to it, thus manifesting in the unity of the universal Church a legitimate diversity of Rites. Therefore, on many grounds efforts to require Latin Catholics to stand at the Consecration are wrong-headed, as well as disobedient.

**The Latin Norm. **In the Latin Rite adoration of Christ in the Eucharist calls for either kneeling or genuflection. In the Liturgy the people are obliged to kneel for the Consecration and the main celebrant to genuflect (both after Consecrating each element and before receiving Holy Communion). Concelebrants are to bow profoundly. Deacons and the laity are to be kneeling.

No kneelers. The liturgical law says we are to kneel, it does not require kneelers. There can only be one of two reasons a Catholic church would be built without kneelers or would remove them. Either the pastor is faithful and wants his people to do some penance by kneeling on the floor, in which case they should oblige him, or, he intends to disobey the liturgical law of the Roman Rite, in which case they should obey the Church. Naturally, if it is too hard for them to kneel then they are excused by n.43.

Unity argument. The General Instruction (nn.42-43) does call for a unified posture of the people. These are important norms, since the outward sign of being the Mystical Body is in part manifested by the one posture of all, just as the sign of Christ the Head, and sign of His members, is manifested by the different postures and actions of the ordained versus the people. BUT, unity is also manifested, and more importantly, by the unity of rite with the Bishop and with the Pope. The life of every parish is dependant upon communion with the successor of the Apostles who is Bishop in that place. And, the life of the particular Church (the canonical term for a diocese) is the communion of its Bishop with the Successor of Peter, the Pope. Of what value is a common posture that acts as a sign of disunity with the particular and universal Church? None! It is a liturgical sign of Congregationalism, not Catholicism.

Roman churches don’t have kneelers. This is simply not true. I’ve lived in Rome and been to Mass in many different churches. Parishes churches have kneelers, just as ours do. The reason the basilicas, like St. Peter’s, don’t have kneelers is the size of the nave. The floor is left open most of the time and chairs are set up by the thousands in various configurations, according to need, when there is a large celebration. In the reservation chapel, where adoration is held daily, there are pews with kneelers. In the left arm of the Basilica, the Chapel of St. Joseph, where the scheduled daily Masses are celebrated each morning until noon, there are pews and kneelers. At the many side altars where visiting priests celebrate Mass, with or without a congregation, there are communion rails, where people kneel. Others kneel on the floor. Kneeling is alive and well in Rome, even if not in your parish!

for the full article
ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_at_the_consecration.htm
 
…
No kneelers.
The liturgical law says we are to kneel, it does not require kneelers. There can only be one of two reasons a Catholic church would be built without kneelers or would remove them. Either the pastor is faithful and wants his people to do some penance by kneeling on the floor, in which case they should oblige him, or, he intends to disobey the liturgical law of the Roman Rite, in which case they should obey the Church. Naturally, if it is too hard for them to kneel then they are excused by n.43.
…
One can also bring one of those small pads used for gardening and throw it down under the pew for use at the appropriate time.
 
what i’ve mentioned is in the GIRM. so who said it? the GIRM
Choy, I believe you are mistaken on this one. The GIRM does not say that lack of kneelers indicates the congregation is not to kneel. I am open to correction, however. If it’s in there, please point me to the passage.

FWIW, my own parish has no kneelers and everyone who is able kneels. I have been fortunate to be in many Churches that experienced overflow for Sunday Mass. Those in the folding chairs and even out in the courtyard knelt.
 
In reading over the replies to my question, one thing is for certain… this is a very sensitive topic in the Church today!

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to add their views for posting useful information and links.

All in all I have concluded that this poor Church of ours in much in need of prayers. The hierarchy is in need of prayers. And we are in need of prayers.

There are very legitimate frustrations out there. as I know for myself, but we need to have in the forefront of our minds that “Our battle is not against flesh and blood.” We can point to the bishops/ priests, and even though they are not faultless completely, our real enemy is Satan. He uses weak vessels to carry about his work. So, I believe that we NEED to step up the prayers for our leaders.

I know that no matter what happens, I shall continue to kneel as a matter of conscience. However, I will note here that when i am attending the Eastern Divine Liturgy, I do follow their custom of standing. At Madonna House, when I was exposed to the Divine liturgy, immediately after the consecration there is a moment of profound silence where everyone makes a profound prostration from their knees and puts their head to the floor. I’ve never had issue with that as there was never any question of reverence and I totally understand the concept of “different customs” with different rites.

My heart aches though, has been when in the “western rite” there are so many variations, when it seems that Rome should hold the standard…(sigh)

No debate on these forums will cure this sore spot in the church, but it helps to have more information and to be strengthened in my resolve to follow my conscience.

Thanks again for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
Choy, I believe you are mistaken on this one. The GIRM does not say that lack of kneelers indicates the congregation is not to kneel. I am open to correction, however. If it’s in there, please point me to the passage.

FWIW, my own parish has no kneelers and everyone who is able kneels. I have been fortunate to be in many Churches that experienced overflow for Sunday Mass. Those in the folding chairs and even out in the courtyard knelt.
the GIRM says this:

…except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

since it didn’t specify what “other good reason” specifically is, maybe to some having no kneelers is a good enough reason.
 
the GIRM says this:

…except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

since it didn’t specify what “other good reason” specifically is, maybe to some having no kneelers is a good enough reason.
Exactly. “to some” and in some situations. “No kneelers” doesn’t automatically lead to “no kneeling” which is what I thought you were saying with your GIRM reference. As I noted, in my parish, we have no kneelers but we kneel. The floor is carpeted and there is ample room to get up and down. In a stadium, it might be a hazzard to get up and down from kneeling so that would be a good reason. I have also been to Mass in an auditorium with closely spaced folding chairs and a large number of “older” attendees. Father asked us to remain standing but he noted it was an exceptional request. At another Mass, we were outside at a youth event and kneeling was expected – younger knees and no space constraints. 😃
 
=rungood4u;6905500]Hi all
Just a question. I’m from Canada and the norms at the consecration is to kneel. However, we have had a few renegade bishops and out west there are large areas where no one kneels during the consecration.
I’ve just recently moved to a small city where the 3 Catholic churches. All of them kneel at the consecration during the weekend masses. However one of them, during the week, has its masses in a side chapel, where there are no kneelers and everyone stands during the consecration. The part that disturbs me most is that the parish priest is one of the diocese’s liturgical experts.
So, I could use a little help to understand where the whole standing thing is coming from. The second part of the question is whether or not the new approved liturgy does away with kneeling???
SADLY the preist is within his “rights” of directives for the “New Way.”

No kneelers = stand:o 😦

Our parish has a “Missionary Church” without kneeler… Nearly everyone stands [me excluded]; yet we have exposition of The Blessed Sacrament for 30 minutes before Mass and the Rosary.

This is part of the making us Protestants so they don’t feel so left out if and when they visit us.

I recall a story about when Cardinl Francis George first took over the Chicago Archdiocese from the deseased Crdinal Bernadine [author of the “Seemless Garmet” theology of unificiation of all Christin faith"…

He was visiting all of the parishes and** seminaries and came to one without kneelers.

Upon leaving he told the Rector to have the seminarians kneel. The priest responded but your Emenience “we have no kneelers.” to which the Cardinal replied: “yes I noticed that.”

This is one of the most signifiant abuses of the new “Gathering Spaces” the current Bishops new term for what used to be {when they actually were} “churches”}.

I can’t get by thefact that WE ARE IN THE VERY PRESENCE OF HE GOD THAT CREATED US. If we believe this ought we to be just standing?

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
Exactly. “to some” and in some situations. “No kneelers” doesn’t automatically lead to “no kneeling” which is what I thought you were saying with your GIRM reference. As I noted, in my parish, we have no kneelers but we kneel. The floor is carpeted and there is ample room to get up and down. In a stadium, it might be a hazzard to get up and down from kneeling so that would be a good reason. I have also been to Mass in an auditorium with closely spaced folding chairs and a large number of “older” attendees. Father asked us to remain standing but he noted it was an exceptional request. At another Mass, we were outside at a youth event and kneeling was expected – younger knees and no space constraints. 😃
come to think about it, some of the older churches in the Philippines have kneelers, but they’re planks of wood with no foam. so, its a step above from kneeling on the concrete, but still not a soft thing to put your knees on.
 
I recall a story about when Cardinl Francis George first took over the Chicago Archdiocese from the deseased Crdinal Bernadine [author of the “Seemless Garmet” theology of unificiation of all Christin faith"…
Cardinal Bernardin’s “Seamless Garment” approach had absolutely zero to do with ecumenism, unifying Christians, or whatever it is you may be thinking. It was about life issues (abortion, the death penalty, etc.) and moral theology. It actually is very closely tied in with the “Culture of Death” that John Paul II decried, in that John Paul, like Cardinal Bernardin, viewed life-related moral issues as closely interrelated. You can read Wikipedia’s fairly good basic take on it here.
[/quote]
 
come to think about it, some of the older churches in the Philippines have kneelers, but they’re planks of wood with no foam. so, its a step above from kneeling on the concrete, but still not a soft thing to put your knees on.
I think you’ll find that most churches in Canada had that type of kneelers until parishes amassed enough funds to pad them.

Certainly the kneelers in the church I attended on Sunday in Ottawa are like that and so were those in most of the churches where I grew up. No kneelers that you could raise or lower as needed, just planks of wood on a few supports that you slid under the pew ahead of you to get them out of your way.
 
I think you’ll find that most churches in Canada had that type of kneelers until parishes amassed enough funds to pad them.

Certainly the kneelers in the church I attended on Sunday in Ottawa are like that and so were those in most of the churches where I grew up. No kneelers that you could raise or lower as needed, just planks of wood on a few supports that you slid under the pew ahead of you to get them out of your way.
They still exist in the mountain villages of British Columbia. 🙂

I actually find them more comfortable, because I can place them directly under my knees and keep my spine straight, rather than trying to stretch forward under the music rack to get my knees on the hinged kind.
 
No kneelers = stand:o 😦
According to the Congregation for Divine Worship - “there is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this might be.” - Notitiae 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4, DOL 1411 n. r2
Upon leaving he told the Rector to have the seminarians kneel. The priest responded but your Emenience “we have no kneelers.” to which the Cardinal replied: “yes I noticed that.”
😃
This is one of the most signifiant abuses of the new “Gathering Spaces” [the current Bishops new term for what used to be {when they actually were} “churches”}.
The GIRM states 311.“Places should be arranged with appropriate care for the faithful so that they are able to participate in the sacred celebrations visually and spiritually, in the proper manner. It is expedient for benches or seats usually to be provided for their use. The custom of reserving seats for private persons, however, is to be rejected. Moreover, benches or chairs should be arranged, **especially in newly built churches, in such a way that the people can easily take up the postures required for the different parts of the celebration **and can easily come forward to receive Holy Communion.”
[/quote]
 
come to think about it, some of the older churches in the Philippines have kneelers, but they’re planks of wood with no foam. so, its a step above from kneeling on the concrete, but still not a soft thing to put your knees on.
I just got back from a mission trip to western Tanzania. Some of the parishes had what you mentioned ( planks for kneelers).

Most just had either cement or ground.

Everybody still knelt. In fact, they kneel for the Penitenital Rite and for the Prayers of the Faithful there too.
 
our former pastor has everyone kneel during advent and lent at the part of the Nicene Creed where we say,

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

the missal suggest people bow, but we go the extra mile for advent and lent
 
our former pastor has everyone kneel during advent and lent at the part of the Nicene Creed where we say,

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

the missal suggest people bow, but we go the extra mile for advent and lent
So are you telling me that in your parish, you stand when kneeling is required (Consecration) and kneel (or knelt, during Lent) when standing and bowing is required? :nope:
 
So are you telling me that in your parish, you stand when kneeling is required (Consecration) and kneel (or knelt, during Lent) when standing and bowing is required? :nope:
where did i say that?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top