New liturgy & Standing at the consecration?

[Corki]

where did i say that?

Earlier in the thread, the comment was made that standing through the Eucharistic Prayer is the most found posture. If that wasn’t you, I apologize.

However, my point is that it is just as disobedient to kneel where the GIRM clearly denotes standing/bowing as it is to stand where the GIRM clearly indicates kneeling.

While I think I understand the priests intention, it goes against the theology behind the posture of the words of incarnation. It has nothing to do with the penetential seasons of Lent or Advent. We kneel for those words TWICE during the year - Christmas and the Annunciation because those two feasts are the most intimately tied to the article of faith expressed in the words of the incarnation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Earlier in the thread, the comment was made that standing through the Eucharistic Prayer is the most found posture. If that wasn’t you, I apologize.

That was the other me

Standing is the common posture for the Consecration Church-wide. That was my point. I am not opposed to kneeling in the Latin Rite nor do I advocate a change in that tradition. Although I also wouldn’t resist a change if Church leaders see it fit.

My parish also kneels for Consecration and The Fraction. Although a nearby parish doesn’t. When I attended Mass there I chose to stand like the rest of the people even though my knee buckled like three times intending to bend. But I realize they do things differently and I don’t want to be a rebel while visiting a parish. I just remembered St. Ambrose, “when in Rome…”

However, my point is that it is just as disobedient to kneel where the GIRM clearly denotes standing/bowing as it is to stand where the GIRM clearly indicates kneeling.

I agree. Although in certain parts of the Mass there has been some leeway given by the Vatican for certain dioceses or parishes. If the priest is exercising what is rightfully given to him, then we should not question it regardless if we agree with it or not. It seems that kneeling during consecration is not universal in the Latin Rite at this point. But at least in the US it is because its clearly stated in the GIRM for the US. But elsewhere it doesn’t seem to be the case.

While I think I understand the priests intention, it goes against the theology behind the posture of the words of incarnation. It has nothing to do with the penetential seasons of Lent or Advent. We kneel for those words TWICE during the year - Christmas and the Annunciation because those two feasts are the most intimately tied to the article of faith expressed in the words of the incarnation.

Our Pastor explains because in the season we deal with the mystery of the incarnation of Christ, that is why we kneel. I don’t know, I respect our former Pastor a lot. He’s an academic and very learned, so in things like this I will not question him. He’ll be the last person who’ll ever absue the Mass in my belief. He’s been thoroughly educated and very much a stickler for rules. Sadly a lot of parishoners do not like him for it, but I like him regardless. Because his homilies not only nourish my soul, but also my mind. And we shouldn’t be so proud that we don’t want to be told how to do things the right way. I love that he sticks up for the right way, even if its not the popular way.

 

[Corki]

That was the other me

Standing is the common posture for the Consecration Church-wide. That was my point. I am not opposed to kneeling in the Latin Rite nor do I advocate a change in that tradition. Although I also wouldn’t resist a change if Church leaders see it fit.

In the Latin Rite, the approved posture during the Consecration is kneeling. This is the universal directive per the GIRM. What differs by country is when to stand after the Consecration. In the US, it’s after the Amen at the end of the doxology. In other countries, it’s after the Memorial Acclamation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In the Latin Rite, the approved posture during the Consecration is kneeling. This is the universal directive per the GIRM. What differs by country is when to stand after the Consecration. In the US, it’s after the Amen at the end of the doxology. In other countries, it’s after the Memorial Acclamation.

I agree on that. I guess we have to ask Phemie again. My understanding from her post is that in Canada, by one way or another, kneeling was removed in some dioceses or perhaps in some parishes. Like I mentioned, one parish close to where I live do not kneel, ours do. So I don’t know why. In my former parish we also kneel.

I know that kneeling is the tradition in the Latin Rite. I’m just saying, if our leaders choose to move to standing and not kneel, I will not disagree with that. Because that is what is done in other Rites for ages, and if we do what the rest of the Church is already doing, I don’t see why its bad. Now if they are to prescribe an entirely different and new posture, I’d have to pause and think. But seeing that its been part of the tradition of other Rites would tell me the practice is valid and good.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree on that. I guess we have to ask Phemie again. My understanding from her post is that in Canada, by one way or another, kneeling was removed in some dioceses or perhaps in some parishes. Like I mentioned, one parish close to where I live do not kneel, ours do. So I don’t know why. In my former parish we also kneel.

In Calgary, it’s all over the map. Some people are under the impression that our Bishop requires that we stand throughout the entire Mass, except for those portions where we’re sitting down (ie: no kneeling allowed during Mass at all.)

At my territorial parish, everyone kneels for the Consecration, and also at one of the parishes where I work, they also all kneel for the Consecration. At the other parish where I work, half the people kneel, and half the people stand - and there are some who kneel throughout the entire Eucharistic prayer, and some who kneel only for the Consecration.

 

[ConstantineTG]

In Calgary, it’s all over the map. Some people are under the impression that our Bishop requires that we stand throughout the entire Mass, except for those portions where we’re sitting down (ie: no kneeling allowed during Mass at all.)

At my territorial parish, everyone kneels for the Consecration, and also at one of the parishes where I work, they also all kneel for the Consecration. At the other parish where I work, half the people kneel, and half the people stand - and there are some who kneel throughout the entire Eucharistic prayer, and some who kneel only for the Consecration.

Could this also be because of a mixture of Rites? If there are new immigrants to Canada and they cannot find a parish of their Eastern Rite Church, then they will go to Mass in a Latin Rite parish. And often they will bring their traditions with them, like no kneeling on Sundays. Some people will see them and do what they do.

Thats just my guess.

 

[jmcrae]

Could this also be because of a mixture of Rites? If there are new immigrants to Canada and they cannot find a parish of their Eastern Rite Church, then they will go to Mass in a Latin Rite parish. And often they will bring their traditions with them, like no kneeling on Sundays. Some people will see them and do what they do.

Thats just my guess.

Most of our immigrants (at least, the ones I happen to be aware of in my work and neighborhood) are from Western Rite countries like Asia, especially the Philippines, Mexico, and South America. These ones all kneel, without any exceptions that I’m aware of. It’s mostly older white people standing, at the one parish where I see it happening. Interestingly, the younger generation almost all kneels, even the white kids - so the notion that standing makes us more “relatable” to youth is without foundation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Most of our immigrants (at least, the ones I happen to be aware of in my work and neighborhood) are from Western Rite countries like Asia, especially the Philippines, Mexico, and South America. These ones all kneel, without any exceptions that I’m aware of. It’s mostly older white people standing, at the one parish where I see it happening. Interestingly, the younger generation almost all kneels, even the white kids - so the notion that standing makes us more “relatable” to youth is without foundation.

Maybe its just bad knees thats why the older ones remain standing. In which case they should stand instead of sit. I think a lot of people have the wrong notion that if they cannot kneel during Consecration, they should sit. No, they should stand. I thought that way in the past, in many times I have my knees shot from playing sports. But if the pain is not so bad I will “half-kneel”. My knees are on the kneelers, but my bum is half on the seat. At least my weight will not be on my knees so its bearable. In the Philippines we have a saying, “pag gusto may paraan, pag ayaw may dahilan” Roughly translated, “if you want it, there is a way. If you don’t want it, there is an excuse.”

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe its just bad knees thats why the older ones remain standing. In which case they should stand instead of sit.

Quite so, and I expect you’re right.

 

[Phemie]

Could this also be because of a mixture of Rites? If there are new immigrants to Canada and they cannot find a parish of their Eastern Rite Church, then they will go to Mass in a Latin Rite parish. And often they will bring their traditions with them, like no kneeling on Sundays. Some people will see them and do what they do.

Thats just my guess.

No, that’s not the reason.

In Canada, the GIRM we use (the 1975 one) calls for kneeling only at Consecration and I must say that most parishes I’ve belonged to do that. But how long they kneel varies: some only kneel for the words of institution, some kneel until the AMEN, etc.

Sometimes it varies in parishes that are located only minutes apart. For example the Cathedral parish knelt for the entire EP and the parish 5 minutes further down the road didn’t kneel at all - and believe me there were no Eastern Tradition Catholics in the lot. Obviously since they were twin parishes the Bishop knew full well. 10 years ago our parish was ordered to stand for the entire EP and people complained to the bishop who said “As long as the pastor called for it it’s OK.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks Phemie. I know what you mean, our neighboring parish stood during Consecration the time I was there. Perhaps in the future when I get the opportunity, I will try what I can to lead them towards the right path.

 

[Magnus467]

When in Rome…

I am surprised at some of these comments. No posture will ever be good enough for Jesus and each posture has its significance. People seem to obsess over the postures, even calling our bishops corrupt. This is truly sad. The GIRM says do what your priest says. Let’s practice some obedience for once!

 

[ConstantineTG]

When in Rome…

I am surprised at some of these comments. No posture will ever be good enough for Jesus and each posture has its significance. People seem to obsess over the postures, even calling our bishops corrupt. This is truly sad. The GIRM says do what your priest says. Let’s practice some obedience for once!

I am on the fence with your statement. We should listen to our priests and also our bishop. But moreover there are directives from the Pope whom we should follow as well. If our priests have been given the authority to make changes themselves, then we should respect their wishes even if we disagree with them. But if our priests have no authority to change anything, we shouldn’t let them change anything. That is how I feel we all should act. I don’t think there’s an option for not kneeling during Consecration. We should respect the Liturgical tradition of our Rite.

 

[Vico]

I am on the fence with your statement. We should listen to our priests and also our bishop. But moreover there are directives from the Pope whom we should follow as well. If our priests have been given the authority to make changes themselves, then we should respect their wishes even if we disagree with them. But if our priests have no authority to change anything, we shouldn’t let them change anything. That is how I feel we all should act. I don’t think there’s an option for not kneeling during Consecration. We should respect the Liturgical tradition of our Rite.

This is the order of some key points in the Eucharistic Prayer.

1. Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy…) …
2. Epiclesis (Father, may the Holy Spirit…) …
3. Take this … eat it. …Which will be given up for you. (genuflect)
4. Take this … drink from it. … Do this in memory of me. (genuflect)
5. Mysterium Fidei (Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith…) …
6. End of doxology (Through Him, with Him, in Him…)

Where the universal norm of the Roman Rite the practice of kneeling for the Consecration from the Epiclesis (2) to the Mysterium Fidei (5), the US dioceses have a rule to kneel for the entire prayer (1-6) (but with exceptions for standing with profound bow instead at the consecration when the priest genuflects). Interestingly in the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy the consecration is standing, and profound bows are at those same places by the celebrants and the people, yet the Epiclesis follows instead of preceeds.

I suspect that Canada does not follow the US rule for GIRM 43 that states after giving allowable reasons for not kneeling during consecration that:

“Those who** do** not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

 

[Magnus467]

I am on the fence with your statement. We should listen to our priests and also our bishop. But moreover there are directives from the Pope whom we should follow as well. If our priests have been given the authority to make changes themselves, then we should respect their wishes even if we disagree with them. But if our priests have no authority to change anything, we shouldn’t let them change anything. That is how I feel we all should act. I don’t think there’s an option for not kneeling during Consecration. We should respect the Liturgical tradition of our Rite.

I agree. Hopefully we would be allowed to kneel on any normal Sunday. I just think if the priest feels there is a sufficient reason not to then we should sallow our pride and stand. The norm at my old high school masses was to stand because we were in an auditorium. However, once, a priest asked us to kneel. Everyone did even though it was quite painful due to hard floor and lack of space.

 

[Corki]

I agree on that. I guess we have to ask Phemie again. My understanding from her post is that in Canada, by one way or another, kneeling was removed in some dioceses or perhaps in some parishes. Like I mentioned, one parish close to where I live do not kneel, ours do. So I don’t know why. In my former parish we also kneel.

I know that kneeling is the tradition in the Latin Rite. I’m just saying, if our leaders choose to move to standing and not kneel, I will not disagree with that. Because that is what is done in other Rites for ages, and if we do what the rest of the Church is already doing, I don’t see why its bad. Now if they are to prescribe an entirely different and new posture, I’d have to pause and think. But seeing that its been part of the tradition of other Rites would tell me the practice is valid and good.

Sorry about that. When you said that standing was the norm “Church-wide” I thought you meant the universal norm, not just Canada. From what I understand from Phemie and others, the GIRM has not yet been implemented in Canada. When it is, you will be able to see what adaptations have been approved by the Vatican. Then if everyone just “reads the black and does the red” everything will be fine.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

From Luke Chapter 22 (NIV)
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table."

---

I guess they didn’t have kneelers in the Upper Room??

Are you suggesting that we install La-Z-Boys around the altar?

Liturgical developments down the centuries are valid because the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. To discard everything not mentioned in Scripture as superfluous is erroneous and Protestant.

 

[Tom_Graves]

no, it does not do away with kneeling at consecration.

We were instructed not to kneel at all during mass - any mass. Some obeyed, some didn’t. We have about 20% who kneel.

We also have our weekday mass in a small chapel. At first it only had chairs and those who usually knelt brought their own kneelers; when consecration came they knelt on those.

the usccb ruled that kneeling during the consecration is the norm for posture during this part of the mass. No exceptions.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sorry about that. When you said that standing was the norm “Church-wide” I thought you meant the universal norm, not just Canada. From what I understand from Phemie and others, the GIRM has not yet been implemented in Canada. When it is, you will be able to see what adaptations have been approved by the Vatican. Then if everyone just “reads the black and does the red” everything will be fine.

Yes, it is universal in the sense that most of the 6 Rites across most of the 22 sui juris Churches use standing as the norm. And even in the Latin Rite we see standing as an option depending on the given circumstance. If that does not define what universal norm is, I don’t know what does

 

[Corki]

When in Rome…

I am surprised at some of these comments. No posture will ever be good enough for Jesus and each posture has its significance. People seem to obsess over the postures, even calling our bishops corrupt. This is truly sad. The GIRM says do what your priest says. Let’s practice some obedience for once!

ok, I’m calling you out on this one. I know there are a few places where the GIRM states to do something “as directed by the celebrant” but I don’t think there is a blanket statement to obey the priest regarding how to do things at Mass. So please post the reference. In fact, I know that RS and other Vatican directives have stated that the priest does not have the authority to change certain norms.

For practical purposes, Catholics are often put in a difficult position. If the priest tells you to do something (outside his authority) that you know is against what the Church teaches (via the GIRM or other directive), obedience is a good choice, if it isn’t a serious digression. But that’s a short term solution. Then you have to go talk to the priest, see if he is willing to follow the Church, then go to the Bishop if he isn’t, etc. etc. etc. It’s a big deal.

More often, I think Catholics are faced with a “when in Rome” scenario where the priest himself hasn’t directed any change to the way postures or gestures are done in Mass but there is a local practice to do something. In those cases, I think Catholics need to follow the higher authority.