New Marian apparitions approved [NC Register]

[RPRPsych]

ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/its-official-major-apparitions-of-mary-are-approved/

Some of the texts are fascinating, especially in the light of previous messages from Lourdes and Fatima (and what is happening in the world today.)

 

[Fuerza]

I’m sure that the Bishop already took this into account, but one of the messages listed in that article says, “The coming of the Savior is imminent”. Wouldn’t this send up a red flag given Christ’s statements about no man’s knowing the day or the hour? Unless I am misunderstanding something.

 

[RPRPsych]

I’m sure that the Bishop already took this into account, but one of the messages listed in that article says, “The coming of the Savior is imminent”. Wouldn’t this send up a red flag given Christ’s statements about no man’s knowing the day or the hour? Unless I am misunderstanding something.

“Imminent” can have a broad sense (“Jesus is coming soon!”; “In these last days…”); we can find the idea of imminence even in some of the Pauline epistles. If the message had been “The Lord is coming on February 28th, 2017!”, then there would be more cause for concern.

Besides, I assume these were translated from the Spanish; sometimes things can get lost in translation. For example, a certain text from Gaudium et Spes is translated in the Catechism as “without the Creator, the created thing vanishes” )), but another book I have translates the text into English as “without the Creator, the created thing becomes opaque” confused

 

[LaetenturCaeli]

I’m very excited about this.

 

[RPRPsych]

I’m very excited about this.

You and me both!

 

[Fuerza]

“Imminent” can have a broad sense (“Jesus is coming soon!”; “In these last days…”); we can find the idea of imminence even in some of the Pauline epistles. If the message had been “The Lord is coming on February 28th, 2017!”, then there would be more cause for concern.

Besides, I assume these were translated from the Spanish; sometimes things can get lost in translation. For example, a certain text from Gaudium et Spes is translated in the Catechism as “without the Creator, the created thing vanishes” )), but another book I have translates the text into English as “without the Creator, the created thing becomes opaque” confused

Perhaps. I’ll see if I can track down the original Spanish version for some clarity.

 

[Upgrade25]

I’m sure that the Bishop already took this into account, but one of the messages listed in that article says, “The coming of the Savior is imminent”. Wouldn’t this send up a red flag given Christ’s statements about no man’s knowing the day or the hour? Unless I am misunderstanding something.

Day or hour. Nothing about a general indication of time like imminent.

 

[Tim_D]

Much of what is posted in the article seems suspect to me. When Mary appeared to the children at Fatima, her entire discourse could easily fit on one page. Here, Mary appears to have spoken volumes. In addition, how many other apparition saints have had both Mary and Jesus appear to them? And Jesus, instead of drawing people to Himself, draws them to Mary and has this to say:?

"Today my mother is the Ark. It is through her, that souls will be saved, because she will lead them to me. He who rejects my mother, rejects me.”

We all know that Christ said that anyone who rejected Him rejected God the Father because Jesus is God, but now we are told that if someone rejects Mary, a creature just like us, that we reject Jesus, too?

Also, the apparitions lasted for 7 years, with 1804 messages from Mary and only 68 from Jesus? I have a hard time believing that Jesus would appear to someone to ask them to draw near to His mother, when Jesus Himself is the second person of the Holy Trinity. Past apparitions have had the intended purpose of drawing people to Jesus, not Mary.

Finally, these supposed apparitions seem be in a totally different character than those that have official approval of the Holy See. We see a very strong Marian-mania that sometimes happens with people. “Prayer is both the means and the weapon, the primary one being the Rosary.” The rosary is a private devotion. All prayer can be equally efficacious when prayed with a humble heart and mind. I’m sorry but I find much of the statements made in this article to be suspect. It is worth noting that that Holy See has made no statement or decision on these particular “apparitions.”

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I find a number of elements in this challenging. There were I believe 6 Fatima apparitions, and 18 at Lourdes. To my knowledge, one at Knock. But 1,804 in San Nicolas? With another 68 from Jesus Himself? Also to my knowledge Fatima, Lourdes, and Knock were “approved” and considered worthy of belief only after significant canonical investigation by multiple authorities and scholars. Does a single bishop authentically arrive at such a conclusion on his own? What guidelines govern such a finding? Given that Heaven exists out of time, the explicit self-referential alignment to multiple Fatima and Lourdes dates seems puzzling. Christ, Redeemer and Savior of the world, ascended into Heaven in his glorified but real body; what is the theological significance of his appearing as a babe in arms again? Quotes such as “It is through her that souls will be saved,” and " God wants to renew the covenant with his people through Mary . . ." – all of this seems to be a representation of a type of popular piety that one would expect to be common in that culture. “All those who have faith in God AND IN MARY will be saved.” How does this relate to Church teaching that does not rule out salvation for those other Christians who lack the fullness of truth and who do not, in fact, recognize Mary’s full role in salvation history? So many aspects of this raise questions.

 

[multitude]

You and me both!

Make it three. It’s all or nothin’ now.

 

[RPRPsych]

I find a number of elements in this challenging. There were I believe 6 Fatima apparitions, and 18 at Lourdes. To my knowledge, one at Knock. But 1,804 in San Nicolas? With another 68 from Jesus Himself?

“Desperate times call for desperate measures”. Also, note the tone of urgency in these messages, similar to those of Fatima and Lourdes, unlike the anodyne messages from The Place That Shall Not Be Named (“Dear Children! Be Good!” )

Also to my knowledge Fatima, Lourdes, and Knock were “approved” and considered worthy of belief only after significant canonical investigation by multiple authorities and scholars. Does a single bishop authentically arrive at such a conclusion on his own? What guidelines govern such a finding?

I’ll have to ask someone with better knowledge to do that, but I believe the local bishop has to rule on it first.

Given that Heaven exists out of time, the explicit self-referential alignment to multiple Fatima and Lourdes dates seems puzzling.

It could be a reminder that those messages are of the utmost importance to us now.

Christ, Redeemer and Savior of the world, ascended into Heaven in his glorified but real body; what is the theological significance of his appearing as a babe in arms again?

Well, in a world where the West has already disposed of ~50 million babies before they reached birth, and where a considerable number of infants die in the East due to the sins of their fathers and societies, Christ was expressing His solidarity with them.

Quotes such as “It is through her that souls will be saved,” and " God wants to renew the covenant with his people through Mary . . ." – all of this seems to be a representation of a type of popular piety that one would expect to be common in that culture.

Or perhaps it is a sign that only the Catholic Church, which alone (apart from the Orthodox) venerates Our Blessed Mother, is the surest means of salvation.

“All those who have faith in God AND IN MARY will be saved.” How does this relate to Church teaching that does not rule out salvation for those other Christians who lack the fullness of truth and who do not, in fact, recognize Mary’s full role in salvation history? So many aspects of this raise questions.

See above. As for “other Christians”, no one, not even Vatican II, said that they were getting a free pass on salvation. Some of them may be saved by extraordinary graces from God, but “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” (which includes faith in Marian dogmas, such as the Assumption and Immaculate Conception) will never be repealed.

 

[mlz]

ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/its-official-major-apparitions-of-mary-are-approved/

Some of the texts are fascinating, especially in the light of previous messages from Lourdes and Fatima (and what is happening in the world today.)

Thank you for sharing this!!! This is significant and important! Our Blessed Mother has appeared this past 100 years and for good reason. These messages are in line with so much I’ve been reading. I am sad by the skeptics… Regarding His return… Yes, we won’t know the day or hour BUT the season, yes. Why would our Lord have even mentioned it if it wasn’t for us to pay attention and be alert. Of course we should look for these times— one day it WILL be the day… !!! Also … As a Christian why does the supernatural seem so far fetched to some- so unbelievable… Our Lord is capable of doing anything !!! He did many supernatural things then AND now. We believe he rose from the dead:grinning:… Yep- that’s most definately supernatural. Today’s gospel about the feeding with the loaves and fish to was it 5,000- also supernatural . I sadly see Jesus shaking His head saying " Oh ye of little faith". Our Blessed Mother IS speaking and we Need to LISTEN and DO what she suggests. We ARE living in difficult times and it brings me great comfort to know of her care for us her children. Such a blessing this is… I totally believe- Alleluia!

mlz

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Thank you for sharing this!!! This is significant and important! Our Blessed Mother has appeared this past 100 years and for good reason. These messages are in line with so much I’ve been reading. I am sad by the skeptics… Regarding His return… Yes, we won’t know the day or hour BUT the season, yes. Why would our Lord have even mentioned it if it wasn’t for us to pay attention and be alert. Of course we should look for these times— one day it WILL be the day… !!! Also … As a Christian why does the supernatural seem so far fetched to some- so unbelievable… Our Lord is capable of doing anything !!! He did many supernatural things then AND now. We believe he rose from the dead:grinning:… Yep- that’s most definately supernatural. Today’s gospel about the feeding with the loaves and fish to was it 5,000- also supernatural . I sadly see Jesus shaking His head saying " Oh ye of little faith". Our Blessed Mother IS speaking and we Need to LISTEN and DO what she suggests. We ARE living in difficult times and it brings me great comfort to know of her care for us her children. Such a blessing this is… I totally believe- Alleluia!

mlz

What is Mary’s only commandment in Scripture?

 

[mlz]

What is Mary’s only commandment in Scripture?

Are you referring to the Wedding feast at Cana?(Do whatever He tells you)
mlz

 

[multitude]

Well, in a world where the West has already disposed of ~50 million babies before they reached birth, and where a considerable number of infants die in the East due to the sins of their fathers and societies, Christ was expressing His solidarity with them.

…See above. As for “other Christians”, no one, not even Vatican II, said that they were getting a free pass on salvation. Some of them may be saved by extraordinary graces from God, but “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” (which includes faith in Marian dogmas, such as the Assumption and Immaculate Conception) will never be repealed.

Christ came through this world through Our Lady, the first time, relying on Her. He will rely on Her the second time. It was written in Revelations; it’s the Lady vs. the Dragon. Considering the times we live in, considering how society now treats the most defenseless groups of people, I’d say there isn’t a more perfect time, or a more perfect scenario. Christ knew how this all was going to play out.

We all know that Christ said that anyone who rejected Him rejected God the Father because Jesus is God, but now we are told that if someone rejects Mary, a creature just like us, that we reject Jesus, too?

Considering that this is actually consistent with what the Saints have been saying for the last number of centuries, from St. Louis de Montfort, to St. Alphonsus de Liguouri, to St. Maximilian Kolbe, why are you so surprised?

 

[Tim_D]

what is the theological significance of his appearing as a babe in arms again? .

If I remember correctly, the crowds at Fatima saw St. Joseph in the sky with the Christ child who blessed the world. I am utterly ignorant of the theological significance of it but I do realize that we adore Christ in many forms, from the Eucharist, to the crucified Savior, to the risen Lord, so I can see the legitimacy of adoring Him as a child.

 

[Tim_D]

Considering that this is actually consistent with what the Saints have been saying for the last number of centuries, from St. Louis de Montfort, to St. Alphonsus de Liguouri, to St. Maximilian Kolbe, why are you so surprised?

Have the saints said that we can only get to Christ through Mary? Because that is certainly not what the Church has taught. It is true that Mary holds a unique place in the communion of saints but saintly veneration has always been a part of the path that is supposed to lead us to Christ. To me, the idea of Christ Himself supposedly telling someone “today my mother is the Ark” is simply bizarre. Is not the Church the Ark? Is not the Church the source of the sacraments that Christ gave us? Is it not through the Church and the sacraments that we will be saved? Isn’t it true that outside of the Church there is no salvation? How then are we to accept that “it is through her (Mary), that souls will be saved…He who rejects my mother rejects me?” Isn’t this a radical concept when compared to the place of the Church in the mystery of salvation? The Nicene Creed states that we “believe in one God…believe in one Lord Jesus Christ…believe in the Holy Spirit…believe in one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.” Are these not the elements necessary for salvation? How does the acceptance or rejection of Mary fit into this?

I agree with Tarpeian Rock that much of this sounds like the hyper-marian devotion that is common in Spanish culture. While the local bishop may have approved the “messages,” that is a far cry from gaining the approval of the Holy See.

 

[commenter]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

What is the impact in the last few decades in that area? I am not so interested in the pilgrims who travel hundreds or thousands of miles. God bless them, and I do that myself here in the USA. I am more interested in, say, a 50 mile radius. Are more people going to Confession on a regular basis? That is important for the pilgrims too, but I am interested in that local population. Have some local people returned to church? Are more people learning the Catechism, and working harder to share it with children and adults? Are there more ministries now to implement the spiritual and corporal works of mercy? Are more peeps from the neighborhood attending daily Masses, and Adoration?

 

[Tim_D]

As for “other Christians”, no one, not even Vatican II, said that they were getting a free pass on salvation. Some of them may be saved by extraordinary graces from God, but “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus” (which includes faith in Marian dogmas, such as the Assumption and Immaculate Conception) will never be repealed.

The dogmas of the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception are particular to Mary’s place in the communion of saints noting her special role that she played in the mystery of salvation. Neither of those dogmas demand that we ascent to the proposition that we can only get to Jesus through Mary. The classic phrase “to Jesus through Mary” has always meant that Mary is part of the path that can lead one to Christ; not a prerequisite step to ensure salvation.

 

[twf]

Have the saints said that we can only get to Christ through Mary? Because that is certainly not what the Church has taught. It is true that Mary holds a unique place in the communion of saints but saintly veneration has always been a part of the path that is supposed to lead us to Christ. To me, the idea of Christ Himself supposedly telling someone “today my mother is the Ark” is simply bizarre. Is not the Church the Ark? Is not the Church the source of the sacraments that Christ gave us? Is it not through the Church and the sacraments that we will be saved? Isn’t it true that outside of the Church there is no salvation? How then are we to accept that “it is through her (Mary), that souls will be saved…He who rejects my mother rejects me?” Isn’t this a radical concept when compared to the place of the Church in the mystery of salvation? The Nicene Creed states that we “believe in one God…believe in one Lord Jesus Christ…believe in the Holy Spirit…believe in one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.” Are these not the elements necessary for salvation? How does the acceptance or rejection of Mary fit into this?

I agree with Tarpeian Rock that much of this sounds like the hyper-marian devotion that is common in Spanish culture. While the local bishop may have approved the “messages,” that is a far cry from gaining the approval of the Holy See.

A couple considerations:

1. Our Lord told the apostles the same thing: he who rejects you rejects me, he who accepts you accepts me. If true of the apostles, why would this not be true of His Mother? Rejecting Our Lady would be, in a sense, a rejection of the Church who’s mother she is. One cannot be a good Catholic without venerating Our Lady (at a minimum one must participate in the liturgical veneration of Our Lady at every mass and especially on her feasts).
2. Our Lady is the perfect prototype of the Church. The Church has long held that she is the ark of the covenant who held the eternal Word. If the Church is the ark, in a mystical sense so is Our Lady. Various authorities have spoken of the Holy Spirit, with Mary, forming each of us into the image of the God-man just as He formed Christ within Mary’s womb. There is a deep, mysterious connection between Mary and the Church. Even the Second Vatican Council speaks of this mystery. Our Lady was assumed into heaven body and soul, as will all the Church on the last day. Mary anticipates the perfection of the whole Church.