New member, looking for discussion

[VociMike]

Let me offer a couple of thoughts, in no particular order.

First, if one claims to be an agnostic, then it is not rational to live one’s life as if God didn’t exist (as the vast, vast majority of agnostics appear to do). Because if one admits that God may exist, then the consequences of that possibility are, literally, infinite. There can be no finite alternative that can outweigh those infinite consquences. Thus the only rational thing for an agnostic to do is to live life as if God exists.

Second, if one claims to be an atheist, that must be understood to be a statement of faith every bit as much as the faith of Christians or other believers. Because the non-existence of God is certainly not proven, and is probably unprovable. So the atheist addresses a fundamental question of the human condition by an act of faith, of believing in a thing not proven.

Finally, regarding the question of the origins of everything (the cosmos, life, the human condition), many atheists and agnostics hold the position “I don’t know how or why everything exists, but I just know it isn’t God”. Would you agree that’s a rather indefensible statement? That it is really a statement of faith?

BTW, many of us here have come from backgrounds similar to yours. I stopped believing in Catholicism when I was 14 or 15 also, and didn’t give it a second thought for 30 years. Then, without any crisis or need or other “obvious” trigger, I found myself in a position where I realized that it was all true. So we can appreciate your background and your position.

Last of all, let me suggest that you read C.S. Lewis’ “Surprised by Joy”, his spiritual autobiography. That might sound dry, but I found it to be a fascinating read, and the Joy he speaks of (I won’t tell you what he means by the word) is something I have experienced myself. He too was raised a Christian and stopped believing when he “grew up” and “got smart”, until his own thinking and experiences caused him, against his will, to acknowledge that God existed, leaving him, upon accepting this fact, he says, “perhaps the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.” Who could resist such an autobiography?

 

[pegelmom]

I know you said you were mainly looking for answers that could be accessed via the internet, but I would highly recommend the book The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

It is written by a former journalist for the Chicago Tribune, and includes a series of interviews from scholars who are experts in their fields. At the end of each chapter it includes some questions for your own personal reflection. And while not Catholic in nature, it is a good starting point for the basis of Christianity.

My brother-in-law was in the same position you were in a few years ago, and has since converted, claiming this book as opening the door for him.

I hope this helps, and will be praying for you!

 

[JRKH]

Just as another thought related to our ability to understand and rationalize God based upon our own intellect.
It seems to be like a single celled “organism” trying to understand the human “organism”. Even if it could understand the concpet of billions of cells all cooperating for the good of all, could it ever understand the ability of the human to think in the way that we do?

Maybe not a great analogy, but thought I’d through it in.

Peace
James

 

[neophyte]

Hey, and in the veiin of what VociMike said, get a copy of C. S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity”.

 

[JLM316]

Dear Wasmit,
I think you need to ask yourself a single question, and ponder the answer. and that is “are you seeking?”

this is a question I don’t want you to answer to us. answer to yourself. that is- ask yourself, am I seeking? and then try to answer it within yourself -

ponder the question internally- don’t dismiss it lightly.

if you think you are seeking, - and I emphasize the word ‘think’, (because it is impossible at this stage to really know for sure) then the next step is to dive in and find what you are looking for.

you don’t need to drown yourself in facts, or have lots of religious jargon shoved down your throat, all you need right now is to ask that basic question- and ponder inside yourself the answer to it.

indeed, there is really only one thing that matters - its actually two things, but really one - that is that we love God, and love one another. if this is what you are seeking, then know that this is the means and the result of everything we do and say.

this is impossible without faith. and faith always begins at an uncomfortable point, where you aren’t sure about things - and have questions. it begins as a very small thought, a seeking if you will.

without faith, you will not find an answer here. but I think there is some faith if your answer to the question is ‘yes’ because if something has drawn you here and it that something cannot be explained by mere mortals. none of us can explain it, except to say the journey of faith always begins there.

when you have answered it, then your next step is how to furfill it- and along those lines you need to take care of yourself by determining whom should you trust? who has the authority to lead you?

but this is not about proofs, or rationalizing. that belongs in science, not here. indeed, to be convinced the effort is worth taking you need to trust in something blindly - because you are in a burning building and someone is holding out a net- you cannot measure it - you have to leap in and trust that it will hold you. and its not a someone- not a human being.

the trust we have is in the Church because we trust that its authority comes directly from God. this requires faith- faith that if you fall, Jesus alone will catch you through an entire mystical organization founded by Himself when He came to visit us 2000 years ago. He came, and died in your place to save you. He allowed Himself to be tortured by mere humans to take on every doubt you and I have- and there is a our trust - in His cross, and because of His cross, we see His Church reliving it everyday- they are indeed one in the same - as re-live His visit and His death in our place at every mass for a good reason - because it is a constant renewal and strengthening, and deepening of the profound trust we have that His Church will lead us home to Him - where we belong.

We do not reside forever in this life - we are only passing through on a jouney to an eternity with God - all He wants return is our Love- this requires trust in Him, which indeed is what faith is - blind trust - like a baby who trust His parents - like someone falling from a burning building into a net - He knows the net will catch Him and hold Him so he does not fear the fall - so he Dives down to escape the flames that would engulf Him. Seek, and then trust and you will then want and in fact will crave the additional information others have offered you here.

 

[PhilVaz]

was << this doesn’t really explain anything that i am looking for, or convince me of anything. >>

I’m telling you that these two books below WILL do that

Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft / Tacelli (1994)
Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig (3rd edition, 2008)

Keep looking, you can also find them used online at sites like www.AbeBooks.com

I would NOT recommend Josh McDowell as someone did. Kreeft/Tacelli (Catholic) and Craig (evangelical) are much more rigorous in their approaches. Lee Strobel’s Case For Christ is also a good introduction to apologetics as someone recommended.

AND C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity AUDIO ONLINE HERE (mp3)

ALSO LISTEN to the William Lane Craig debates. They are fine presentations of the basic Christian beliefs in God and the resurrection of Jesus.

Bring up some SPECIFIC objections or questions, and we can try to answer.

Phil P

 

[wasmit]

peterkreeft.com/topics/gods-existence.htm

there is no argument here

peterkreeft.com/topics/design.htm

Complexity does not imply design

The design claim is an argument of ignorance.

Evolution is a better explaination for the complexity of life and has more supporting evidence.

The design argument must apply to the designer, therefore there is an infinite regress or creators. If the designer is not designed, then other things can be exempt from design.

There is no evidence for design in our universe. We do not know the potential values for the physical constants; we do not know the number of iterations of the universe; we do not know the number of conditions under which some form of life could exist. Until we know these values, we cannot make a probabilistic case for or against design based on the Strong Anthropic Principle.

“because the physical laws of our surroundings aesthetically pleasing, they must be designed” is a poor argument.

–

I will get to the other kreeft pages as i have time, thankyou for pointing these out to me.

 

[coolduude]

Here’s a link to a thread JUST like this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=297874

The first posts are always the best, but take a look through the rest of the thread. It might help you.

Good luck!

 

[wasmit]

Hi wasmit and welcome.

I would suggest you try an experiment. In order to fully understand Christianity as an adult you have to live it. Most atheists and agnostics that I have encountered have not tried, as an adult, to understand and implement the Christian faith.

The experiment I suggest is to practice the faith for one month. To perform this experiment, as a lapsed Catholic, you should go to confession, receive the Eucharist at Mass daily, daily prayer and complete two books that explain the faith from an adult perspective.

should I do this for all religions? there are thousands of them. How is this religion different to the next one? there is little or no evidence for any of them.

I can’t have faith in something that has not been shown to be true. To do this experiment would be the height of hypocrisy. I could not attend a mass and say things such as the catholic creed when i do not believe it.

Further, I don’t have a spare 2 hours a day to do this.

 

[coolduude]

Why don’t you research miracles?

Especially the ones science can’t prove.

Some starting miracles could be the Eucharistic miracles. There are quite a few, most of which are very hard or impossible for science to explain.

Also, try to read the book “The Case for Christ”. I forget the author. I do know he was an atheist, then delved into researching Christianity. Though not Catholic (I’m pretty sure he’s not), reseaching for this book made him Christian.

Give it a try and see what happens!

 

[wasmit]

If you have read all the articles linked then what specifically is your objection to what they say. You vague statement doesn’t tell us why or have you not even bothered to read them?

a list of popes does not explain anything.

<<Scripture Catholic you have to know the writings to get to know the author.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/>>

the bible is a book that has been translated and edited a great many times; such that its original meaning has been heavily skewed. Even if it was written by divine inspiration(seems exceedingly unlikely), the original meaning has changed.

further, why is this book true, and not the koran, or the torah, or the OT levels, etc.

<<King Herod people from the Bible
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Herod

Caesar Augustus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus>> how is this related to the existence of a god?

<<Protestant Reformation
history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=220450

Martin Luther
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/LUTHER.HTM>> how is this related to the existence of a god? they explain historical events.

<<Roman Catacombs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_catacombs>>
???

 

[VociMike]

Evolution is a better explaination for the complexity of life and has more supporting evidence.

I hope you don’t believe the fallacy that if evolution is true it proves there is no God. Catholicism has no problem whatsoever with the concept of evolution.

 

[wasmit]

You are right, ni one sense we have only our own intellect to use.
However one of the things that we can understand is that we can’t understand everything. However, our inability to understand does doesn’t make something not exist.

neither does it make something exist. our inability to understand a particular concept shows nothing.

Maybe a bad choice of term.
What I mean is that, even if one only accepts that God exists but without any specific theology or terminology it can open up an avenue for grace to flow.

what is grace? how does it flow? i don’t know what you are talking about.

For example, If i am convinced that there was a thing that created the big bang, and does nothing afterwards, that only changes my opinion, and nothing else.

Because we see, not God, but God’s presence in everything around us.

how do you know it is a god, and not another explaination?

It is entirely possible that God exists in a way that is different than how we visualize it.

ok

However God knows that we can only understand at a certain level and works with us on that level.

how do you know that god knows that?

As we Grow, our understanding of God Grows. And God gives us more.

how specifically do you grow? how can a god give us anything when this cannot be shown to happen?

The point is that there are some things we will just not be able to figure out.

how do you know this? how do you know that it is impossible for a civilisation or a person to know everything?

It is important that we, as God’s Children understand this.

why is it important? it sounds like you are just limiting your curiosity and critical thinking by saying “oh, I can’t know that. ignore”.

And yet many millions of people will attest to just the opposite. Therefore the problem may not be with the prayers, but rather ones disposition toward God. God has given us free will. It is up to us how we use it. Do we turn to God or away? Do we Trust God or not?
Probably the most important prayer we can say is to pray for God’s will to be made manifest in our lives.
In my own life, I have seen both direct and indirect answers to prayers. I’ve also seen the answer be “No”. Right now I take care of my dear wife who has alzheimers disease. I pray for healing every day, but even more I pray for God’s grace and courage to do what needs to be done and to live in His light.
It is important that we properly orient our lives toard God, without whom we would not even exist.

Keep asking questions

Peace
James

are you saying that i am not praying correctly, and never have?
how do you know that a god has given humans free will?
how can you trust something that doesn’t exist? How is saying “trust god” different to saying “trust FSM”?
how do you know that that is the most important prayer?
if you pray for healing, why is it not granted?

I don’t really nkow what you mean in the last 2 sentences.

 

[wasmit]

Well, for example, note that nobody in the past ever claimed to know where Jesus was buried, or have possession of his body. This in spite of the fact that it would have benefitted the Romans, and much more so the Jews, to demonstrate that the stories of Christ’s resurrection were untrue. So they would have had a strong incentive to find and display the body.

no-one knows where the body is, and we can’t know.

there is no evidence available that points to anything. do you guys know of any evidence?

 

[wasmit]

I hope you don’t believe the fallacy that if evolution is true it proves there is no God. Catholicism has no problem whatsoever with the concept of evolution.

of course not, evolution and a god a completely seperate things.

why do you say “if evolution is true” - it has been shown to be true.

 

[VociMike]

no-one knows where the body is, and we can’t know.

there is no evidence available that points to anything. do you guys know of any evidence?

Lack of a thing can be every bit as evidentiary as presence of a thing. My point is that there was a very strong incentive for both the Romans and the Jews to find the body and publicly display it, to disprove the claims of the upstart Christian sect. But that never happened. When people have a strong reason to do something, but the thing doesn’t get done, there must be even a stronger reason that prevents it. What was that reason?

 

[VociMike]

of course not, evolution and a god a completely seperate things.

And yet a great many atheists point to evolution as disproving God. Glad you’re not in that camp.

why do you say “if evolution is true” - it has been shown to be true.

Just a figure of speech, as in “if A then B”. I’m an engineer, and have no problem with the true science of evolution (as opposed to the surrounding cloud of pseudo-science that it seems to have collected).

 

[wasmit]

That’s a good place to start.

I’m an engineer, and I place a high value on evidence and reason. Might I suggest that you purchase a book entitled “Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Vol. 1”, but Josh McDowell. It’s a discussion of the rules of legal evidence and an evaluation of the evidence for the claims of Christianity in the light of those rules. It’s worth every penny of the cost. Be sure to read the introductions in the beginning, the explanation of the layout of the book is important.

i have ordered that book, it has volumes 1 and 2 in the same book.

The short version of the chain of reasoning that worked for me goes like this:1. When invoestigating the question of the existance of God, one cannot reject the reality of miracles out of hand without begging the question: the statement “miracles cannot happen” is equivalent to “there is no god”.
2. By definition, science cannot provide evidence for or against God’s existence.

1. Therefore, if God wanted us to know about Him, He’d have to leave us historical evidence.4. By the rules of historical evidence, the Biblical accounts of Jesus of Nazareth are found to be reliable records of historical events (read “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”).5. The historical evidence shows that Jesus DID die and come back to life. To reject this out of hand involves a violation of proposition #1 above.6. Jesus claimed to be God. The Apostles claimed that He was God. You can decide to believe it or not; if not then the only option is to believe that he was either a nutcase or very evil.7. The historical record of Jesus personality is inconsistent with that of an evil or insane person. The most logical conclusion is that He is God; again, to reject this out of hand is a violation of proposition #1.

1. is false, if miracles cannot happen a god may still exist. also, miracles can happen with no god.
2. is false - jesus’ body may be found, or prayer could be shown to work.
3. is false, he could use other ways.
4. i agree that the man existed, the biblical stories are most likely just that - a story.
5. what evidence?
6. is false, ther are other options that “nutcase” or “evil”.
7. is false a non-evil and non-insane person is not automatically a god.

 

[wasmit]

Let me offer a couple of thoughts, in no particular order.

First, if one claims to be an agnostic, then it is not rational to live one’s life as if God didn’t exist (as the vast, vast majority of agnostics appear to do). Because if one admits that God may exist, then the consequences of that possibility are, literally, infinite. There can be no finite alternative that can outweigh those infinite consquences. Thus the only rational thing for an agnostic to do is to live life as if God exists.

which god? many religions demand exclusivity, and to choose one is to invoke the displeasure of the others.

second, if one claims to be an atheist, that must be understood to be a statement of faith every bit as much as the faith of Christians or other believers. Because the non-existence of God is certainly not proven, and is probably unprovable. So the atheist addresses a fundamental question of the human condition by an act of faith, of believing in a thing not proven.

i agree, that’s why i say that I am 99% atheist.

Finally, regarding the question of the origins of everything (the cosmos, life, the human condition), many atheists and agnostics hold the position “I don’t know how or why everything exists, but I just know it isn’t God”. Would you agree that’s a rather indefensible statement? That it is really a statement of faith?

yes i agree, that is the same as the previous paragraph.

BTW, many of us here have come from backgrounds similar to yours. I stopped believing in Catholicism when I was 14 or 15 also, and didn’t give it a second thought for 30 years. Then, without any crisis or need or other “obvious” trigger, I found myself in a position where I realized that it was all true. So we can appreciate your background and your position.

how?

Last of all, let me suggest that you read C.S. Lewis’ “Surprised by Joy”, his spiritual autobiography. That might sound dry, but I found it to be a fascinating read, and the Joy he speaks of (I won’t tell you what he means by the word) is something I have experienced myself. He too was raised a Christian and stopped believing when he “grew up” and “got smart”, until his own thinking and experiences caused him, against his will, to acknowledge that God existed, leaving him, upon accepting this fact, he says, “perhaps the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.” Who could resist such an autobiography?

i will see if i can get that book

 

[Maranatha]

should I do this for all religions? there are thousands of them. How is this religion different to the next one? there is little or no evidence for any of them.

You can pick any religion. Many people actually try many.

I can’t have faith in something that has not been shown to be true. To do this experiment would be the height of hypocrisy. I could not attend a mass and say things such as the catholic creed when i do not believe it.

The Creed is said on (most) Sundays - not weekdays - and you don’t have to say it - just listen. Perhaps you could investigate why the Nicene Creed is said, what other creeds were used in history and why it’s placed where it is.

The weekday Masses are generally shorter. Don’t expect Mass to be entertainment. It is not there for you. Catholics go to Mass to worship God and not themselves - it is the antithesis to selfish self centered-ness. Getting over selfishness is the path to joy.

Further, I don’t have a spare 2 hours a day to do this.

The experiment only lasts for one month. If you have an hour a day and your up to the challenge an you can perform the experiment.