New Missal

[ProVobis]

Why can’t we just all go back to using the Douar-Rheims Bible?! Every part of Mass is supposed to be outside of the normal culture/other worldly anyways.

How about the Latin Vulgate?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

How about the Latin Vulgate?

How about the greek? heck, lets just all jump aboard the SSP1 bandwagon and ignore these “vernacular” desecrations of the Word of God. (extreme sarcasm intended).

I may like the latin better, but it is just my opinion. What we do with the Word of God, whatever translation we use, is up to us. I am teaching myself latin so that I can read the vulgate, breviary, and missal in latin, but I dont think that there is anything inherently better or worse about latin or the vernacular.

And keep in mind that latin was at one time the vernacular… I am sure people said the same about the vulgate that many people say about various translations.

FSC

 

[ProVobis]

How about the greek?

FSC

Not all Scripture is in Greek. St. Jerome consolidated the Greek, Hebrew, and other languages into Latin Vulgate. But I doubt if everyone in the West knew Latin as his/her first language, having read some of the roots of the different languages. (English is of Germanic descent, for example) Maybe Latin was just a common language, rather than what we consider vernacular. (At least the alphabet was common and many spoke multiple languages.) Or maybe Latin spread because of the Mass, I don’t know. I don’t have the exact numbers on these things but I doubt if Latin was that widespread of a vernacular everywhere the Latin Mass flourished.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Not all Scripture is in Greek. St. Jerome consolidated the Greek, Hebrew, and other languages into Latin Vulgate. But I doubt if everyone in the West knew Latin as his/her first language, having read some of the roots of the different languages. (English is of Germanic descent, for example) Maybe Latin was just a common language, rather than what we consider vernacular. (At least the alphabet was common and many spoke multiple languages.) Or maybe Latin spread because of the Mass, I don’t know. I don’t have the exact numbers on these things but I doubt if Latin was that widespread of a vernacular everywhere the Latin Mass flourished.

hmmmm. My attempts at sarcasm continue to fall short. I should give it up…

FSC

 

[MoreCoffee]

However, in this day and age, it should not be that difficult. I could buy the argument if we lived in the 1970s when things were still type-set, but, that is not the case at all in the here and now. Things can be (and are) sent electronically.

National councils of Catholic bishops don’t move especially fast. The text that is approved now is the text of the mass but not the text of special national prayers, or the selection of gospel acclimation verses and responsorial psalm responses. I know’s I’ve said this before, but you don’t seem to be taking it seriously. It takes time to get large bodies of bishops to agree. What’s so hard about being patient?

Cheers

 

[benedictgal]

National councils of Catholic bishops don’t move especially fast. The text that is approved now is the text of the mass but not the text of special national prayers, or the selection of gospel acclimation verses and responsorial psalm responses. I know’s I’ve said this before, but you don’t seem to be taking it seriously. It takes time to get large bodies of bishops to agree. What’s so hard about being patient?

Cheers

All of these have already been approved, More Coffee. That is what I do not think you understand. All of these were approved as different sets. I just believe that this is a stalling tactic by some.

 

[MoreCoffee]

All of these have already been approved, More Coffee. That is what I do not think you understand. All of these were approved as different sets. I just believe that this is a stalling tactic by some.

Rubbish (to be blunt). The PDF that’s available, and other documents available online - including the documents available in Australia - do not include the lectionary, and it is from the lectionary that the things I have mentioned come.

It is probably true that there will be no changes to the lectionary, but the printers of a hand missal need to incorporate the lectionary text into the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal for each of the major English speaking jurisdictions and that means a lot of typesetting and a lot of proofing. It takes time, as has been explained by several people several times. There’s no conspiracy to delay things, having the printed missals available within 18 months of the approval of the text is pretty good going. I don’t see why you want to see it as unacceptably slow. There’s nothing to be gained (or lost) by waiting until Advent 2011.

Cheers

 

[roadsend]

…There’s no conspiracy to delay things, having the printed missals available within 18 months of the approval of the text is pretty good going. I don’t see why you want to see it as unacceptably slow. There’s nothing to be gained (or lost) by waiting until Advent 2011.

Cheers

I think that the website below which is being run out of an Archdiocesan cathedral is pretty good evidence that there are a lot of powerful folks trying to delay or stop the new translations.

whatifwejustsaidwait.org/

A quote from the introduction to the website:
*“For this reason we earnestly implore the bishops of the English-speaking world to undertake a pilot program by which the new translations – after a careful program of catechesis – can be introduced into some carefully selected parishes and communities throughout the English-speaking world for a period of one (liturgical) year, after which they can be objectively evaluated.” *

If this isn’t a stalling tactic, I don’t know what it is.
We have been living with obviously defective translations for forty plus years. Haven’t we waited long enough?

 

[Rachel_1]

this is what i think about the new Missal…

if the Pope and all the Bishops (especially the Bishop of my Archdiocese) say this is the new Missal we will use, then i will accept it and use it gladly

Same here

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think that the website below which is being run out of an Archdiocesan cathedral is pretty good evidence that there are a lot of powerful folks trying to delay or stop the new translations.

<see url in the post I’ve quoted>

A quote from the introduction to the website:

<See quote in the post I’ve quoted>

If this isn’t a stalling tactic, I don’t know what it is.
We have been living with obviously defective translations for forty plus years. Haven’t we waited long enough?

So? There are web sites advocating a return to the 1962 missal. Are they part of some world wide conspiracy? Web sites are legion and very few of them represent much more than the views of a small group of people. I don’t buy this conspiracy theory, it makes no sense because the 3rd edition of the Missal will be introduced and that’s that.

Cheers

 

[Phemie]

Rubbish (to be blunt). The PDF that’s available, and other documents available online - including the documents available in Australia - do not include the lectionary, and it is from the lectionary that the things I have mentioned come.

It is probably true that there will be no changes to the lectionary, but the printers of a hand missal need to incorporate the lectionary text into the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal for each of the major English speaking jurisdictions and that means a lot of typesetting and a lot of proofing. It takes time, as has been explained by several people several times. There’s no conspiracy to delay things, having the printed missals available within 18 months of the approval of the text is pretty good going. I don’t see why you want to see it as unacceptably slow. There’s nothing to be gained (or lost) by waiting until Advent 2011.

Cheers

You seem fixated on the Lectionary which doesn’t even come into play.

The Missal that is to be printed is the one that will be used at the altar. That doesn’t in any way, shape or form include the Lectionary. It includes all the prayers that the priest says, not the readings. Those prayers have all been approved, including the feast day ones, the ritual Mass ones (weddings, funerals), etc.

Each conference prints its own (or group of conferences). I don’t know, is the Missal Australia uses now approved for use by both Australia and New Zealand? Ours is only approved for use in Canada, while in Great Britain where there are 3 conferences (England & Wales; Ireland; Scotland) the Missal is probably approved for use by all 4 countries.

There might conceivably be national variations such as exist now: some countries include responses or introductions that don’t exist in other countries. We don’t yet know if that is going to be the case.

But once the text of the Missal is available all those companies which produce missalettes or annual missals will just substitute the new text for what they have formatted now.

 

[diggerdomer]

However, in this day and age, it should not be that difficult. I could buy the argument if we lived in the 1970s when things were still type-set, but, that is not the case at all in the here and now. Things can be (and are) sent electronically.

Did the Vatican send its recognitio to the U.S. Bishops electronically? I don’t know, would be interested to know.

 

[diggerdomer]

You seem fixated on the Lectionary which doesn’t even come into play.

The Missal that is to be printed is the one that will be used at the altar. That doesn’t in any way, shape or form include the Lectionary. It includes all the prayers that the priest says, not the readings. Those prayers have all been approved, including the feast day ones, the ritual Mass ones (weddings, funerals), etc.

Each conference prints its own (or group of conferences). I don’t know, is the Missal Australia uses now approved for use by both Australia and New Zealand? Ours is only approved for use in Canada, while in Great Britain where there are 3 conferences (England & Wales; Ireland; Scotland) the Missal is probably approved for use by all 4 countries.

There might conceivably be national variations such as exist now: some countries include responses or introductions that don’t exist in other countries. We don’t yet know if that is going to be the case.

But once the text of the Missal is available all those companies which produce missalettes or annual missals will just substitute the new text for what they have formatted now.

The Missal does include the Lectionary. That’s why a Missal is different from a Sacramentary.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You seem fixated on the Lectionary which doesn’t even come into play.

The Missal that is to be printed is the one that will be used at the altar. That doesn’t in any way, shape or form include the Lectionary. It includes all the prayers that the priest says, not the readings. Those prayers have all been approved, including the feast day ones, the ritual Mass ones (weddings, funerals), etc.

Each conference prints its own (or group of conferences). I don’t know, is the Missal Australia uses now approved for use by both Australia and New Zealand? Ours is only approved for use in Canada, while in Great Britain where there are 3 conferences (England & Wales; Ireland; Scotland) the Missal is probably approved for use by all 4 countries.

There might conceivably be national variations such as exist now: some countries include responses or introductions that don’t exist in other countries. We don’t yet know if that is going to be the case.

But once the text of the Missal is available all those companies which produce missalettes or annual missals will just substitute the new text for what they have formatted now.

I think you are mistaken, the hand missals which the faithful use will also be printed and be available for purchase for Advent 2011 if all goes to plan. Hand missals do in fact include the texts from the lectionary as well as much of the content from the Altar Missal. Annual missals in Australia come in at least two formats, one with the lectionary texts printed and one without (just references).

The Missal currently in use in Australia is also used in New Zealand, that is likely to continue to be the case.

At the very least the content of the altar missal will need to be made available in printed form for distribution to the faithful well before Advent 2011 if there is to be any chance of successful catechisis prior to the introduction of the 3rd edition as the norm for worship in Roman rite churches.

I do not see why waiting until Advent 2011 is so objectionable for some.

Cheers

 

[Phemie]

The Missal does include the Lectionary. That’s why a Missal is different from a Sacramentary.

In fact, ICEL used the term “Sacramentary” wrongly and Rome ordered them to call the book to be used at the altar “Roman Missal” even though it doesn’t include the Lectionary.

In his 2002 **Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal, **Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez said this:

A. The word “Sacramentary”, evidently chosen to distinguish this book containing the prayers of the Mass, on the one hand, from the Lectionary, on the other, seems nevertheless to have had the adverse effect of furthering a mistaken conception of this “Sacramentary” as a new and somewhat autonomous liturgical book for the English-speaking world. The term “Sacramentary” is not characterized by a linear historical development, and the present book also contains antiphons and other elements that were not in the ancient or medieval books commonly designated sacramentaries, at least in academic usage. Accordingly, the Congregation asks that from now on the book be referred to in English as The Roman Missal, and that the official use of the word Sacramentary be discontinued in reference to it.

 

[Phemie]

I think you are mistaken, the hand missals which the faithful use will also be printed and be available for purchase for Advent 2011 if all goes to plan. Hand missals do in fact include the texts from the lectionary as well as much of the content from the Altar Missal. Annual missals in Australia come in at least two formats, one with the lectionary texts printed and one without (just references).

The Missal currently in use in Australia is also used in New Zealand, that is likely to continue to be the case.

At the very least the content of the altar missal will need to be made available in printed form for distribution to the faithful well before Advent 2011 if there is to be any chance of successful catechisis prior to the introduction of the 3rd edition as the norm for worship in Roman rite churches.

I do not see why waiting until Advent 2011 is so objectionable for some.

Cheers

That is actually quite easy to do. In Canada, the Lectionary changed at Pentecost 2009. The new text was actually the one that was printed in the congregation’s missalettes and missals starting in Advent 2008 because that had been the target date for implementation of the new Lectionary, a date that didn’t materialize because of a snafu at the printer.

It was actually easier for the missalette publisher to reformat the missalette than it was for the Conference to get the new Lectionary to the parishes.

 

[diggerdomer]

In fact, ICEL used the term “Sacramentary” wrongly and Rome ordered them to call the book to be used at the altar “Roman Missal” even though it doesn’t include the Lectionary.

In his 2002 **Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal, **Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez said this:

That simply confirms the point I made. Thanks.

 

[japhy]

The Missal does include the Lectionary. That’s why a Missal is different from a Sacramentary.

But the modern Roman Missal is called a Missal. I have a 2002 Roman Missal in Latin, and it doesn’t have the readings in it. It’s not called in Sacramentary (in Latin).

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have a Daily Roman Missal (in English) that was published in 2004 with 2003 Imprimatur from Francis Cardinal George and it contains the readings from the lectionary. I guess that the Roman Missal comes either with or without lectionary readings.

 

[Mattjolley]

Same here

Thirded!